Thread: Posture: Back and Knees (and a vent)

Hey Ladies,

I posted this on livejournal about 6 months ago, but it's still a problem, so I thought I'd get some advice from Bhuzzers.

I have a very deep curve in my back. It gives the impression that I'm poking my butt out, but really, it's just the effect of the curve. I find it difficult to get into the proper position without feeling stiff. And my teachers are forever telling me to tuck in, but I am as tucked as I can be. I'm always going to look a little sway-backed, but it gets frustrating because people tend to think that I'm just incorrect. Any suggestions?

Also, is anyone else here knocked-kneed? How do you deal with that? I’ve spent quite a few years trying to compensate for it turning my knees and feet out when I stand and walk. However can’t seem to turn it off when I’m dancing. My teacher is always telling me “feet towards the mirror!”, but 0 seconds later they are back in my usual position. I really hate it because when my feet face forward, my knees turn in quite a bit and everything locks up. Then I get told to "make my movements bigger". It makes the whole thing feel impossible.

Dance is supposed to be an enjoyable, but some days it's to the point where I actually dread doing certain movements because I know I'm going to get conflicting directions. I don't see why it's so hard to see that I'm swayback and knock-kneed. It's not like it's a muscular or bone issue that you'd never know about unless someone told you. It's something that you can see without any effort. What's with teachers trying to make everything uniform when womens' bodies are so different? This isn't ballet!

Thanks!

If you are highly motivated to become a better dancer, you might want to consider working with an Alexander Technique instructor.

You may be able to better optimize some of these posture and alignment issues. After working with an AT teacher for 6 months, I understand that much of how we are shaped is due to interconnected muscular habits that can be retrained and changed.

You are getting conflicting advice from teachers because they can see that things are not optimally balanced in your body, but don't really know how to help you fix it.

As a teacher, I also have students with unusual postural issues that I can't fix. When I realize my corrections aren't fixing the problem, I try to make sure they don't injure themselves, but otherwise back off. If they are serious about dancing, I try to point them towards people with other expertises. I have had students that need 6 months with a physical therapist before they will make any headway in dance class. Others that would improve with Alexander Technique. But I can only make suggestions. Most people are just not that into the dance to be motivated to take that kind of journey.

To give you an example of the Alexander approach, an AT instructor would not try to fix a deep curve in the lower back by having you tuck more. As you already know, that doesn't work for everyone. Rather, he/she would look at the muscular balance throughout your whole body, starting with the head, and going all the way down to the feet. The instructor would use guided movements to help you engage muscles that are not engaging enough, and relax those that are too tightly clenched. You might always have a deeper than average curve in your lumbar, but you can probably mitigate its effect by small changes elsewhere.

Hi,

It isn't the curve that is the problem because that can depend on how much butt you have, rather it is the orientation of the pelvis. If you do have an anteriorly tilted pelvis you risk damaging your lower back - then you won't have any fun in class. With this posture type the lower abs and external obliques need strengthening; all the posterior muscles need stretching; often the hip flexors and quads need stretching as well; any exercise that hyperextends the back should be avoided. Often just softening the knees will help a little.

For stretches target one muscle group at a time - that is don't go for the scattergun approach by taking a general stretch class with a group. Get in there and stretch just your glutes, then just your hamstrings. This cannot be done in class time. I had a program written for me by a sports/rehab physio - it took over 45 minutes to run through (including warmup). I had to do it at least three times a week. Even then it took about 6 months before there was any real improvement.

With your knock knees it'll depend how much is bone and how much is habitual muscle tension and weakness. Working on strengthen the inner thighs and glutes may help.

Originally Posted by Midoria

What's with teachers trying to make everything uniform when womens' bodies are so different? This isn't ballet!

Midoria, I can understand why you're feeling so frustrated. It's annoying to be trying your best to do what the teacher wants while knowing that you have certain physical issues. I had to learn how to compensate for my curvature of the spine.

To answer your question, the reason we teachers keep harassing students about tucking the pelvis is that a swayback can lead to lower back injury or sciatic nerve pain, and we don't want to injure our students! The reason we keep harassing students about knock knees is that we don't want them to get a knee injury. So our motive isn't so much about uniformity as it is trying to ensure that you can move safely. None of us wants to be responsible for hurting a student!

If you have knee pain or lower back pain after dancing, it might be good to look into body work - the one that helped me a lot was rolfing.

If you don't have pain, you might want to consult a health care professional (orthopedist, physical therapist, exercise physiologist), show that person some sample belly dance movements, and ask them to help you assess whether these moves put you at risk of injury. It's good to understand what your risks are. If they say you're at risk and it's just a matter of time, again you might want to consider body work. But if they say you're fine, then politely explain to your dance teachers that you have consulted a medical professional who has cleared you to dance despite your posture issues.

The dancer Delilah in Seattle has a rather extreme swayback. I have no idea whether it causes her pain, but it hasn't prevented her from having a vibrant dance career.

I have the same problem you do and worked with PT to find some things I could do to improve the situation. Here are some of the things I can share with you.

• Anytime you are just standing around, turn your toes in. This gives you a good steady stretch across the glutes and hips.
  • Work on strengthening lower abs, especially when seated. As you tighten your lower abs you will immediatiately feel a stretch and lengthening of the lower back.
    • If you are practicing pelvic tucks in class or at home, return your pelvis to neutral rather than fully dropping the pelvis. This will help keep your abs engaged and your back lengthened and it will still look like a pelvic drop on you.
      • Look into an exercise program called T-Tapp by Teresa Tapp. She has books and dvds. Emphasis on exercise to produce muscle balance and proper alignment of spine and hips.

The other thing you can do is talk with your instructor privately after class. Let her know that you are working on the problem and ask for her help. Perhaps you could arrange for a private lesson where she could work with you on posture and isolations. There may be some things she can add that she doesn't have time to do in class.

Finally something I forgot to add to the list above--really work hard on stretching your hamstrings and strengthening your quads. This will help a lot. When your glutes and hams are tight, they pull everything back and so that is where you are going to feel comfortable and natural at. And if you have been standing like that (butt out, back curved) for a long time, they are naturally going to be tight.

Hope this helps.

Souzan

I have a deep curve in my lower back and I'm knock kneed. (My knock knees are due to severe pronation of my ankles, so everything sort of falls in on itself.) Neither of these things have caused me any problems. My teacher has basically told me that she can tell when my pelvis is tucked and as long as I have that tuck and can hold it, it doesn't really matter that my butt looks like it's sticking out a bit. It's just that you have to be able to maintain the tuck and maintain your dance posture.

As for the knock knees, I just compensate by dancing with my feet closer together than some dancers. That works for me. YMMV.

Hope you get it figured out!

Hey, Ladies!

Thanks for responding to my post. I appreciate it. I guess I'm just frustrated because I feel that my studio focuses too much on uniformity and not on each student having her (or his) personal correctness. Every term they pass out a survey to all students see how they are doing. The last three terms, I have consistently said there needs to be more awareness on body differences. I'm new to bellydance, but I've been dancing since I was 12. I know my body.

Ssipes:

The Alexander Technique looks really interesting. I probably wouldn’t do it just for dance (it’s only a hobby), but I might do it just for general well-being. It’s kind of a catch 22. When I stay with my pilates, my back is better because my core is strong. But when my back starts to hurt, pilates becomes too painful to do and thusly, I get weaker and fall into more pain.

Kashmir:

This is true, but we stretch for at least 10 minutes (usually 15) in class. We do a lot of hammy, glue, and abdominal work stretches. And if I get there early, I do some extra stretches on my own before class starts.

Shira:

I understand that being tucked helps keep you from injury, but my tucked is not like everyone else’s. There is a difference between not being tucked at all and not LOOKING tucked. I keep telling the teachers “I am tucked”, but they don’t seem to believe me. They keep pestering me until I’m over-tucked and then start pestering me for being stiff. What do they expect? I’m almost doubled over!

Thank you turning me onto Delilah. As far as curved spines go, she could be my twin. It’s so nice to get some visual encouragement that I can master this dance form despite my physicality.

Souzan:

I will look into all of your suggestions. Thanks!

Mashima:

That’s exactly what I want from my teacher. If you look at me when I’m released/lax and when I’m tucked, you can certainly tell the difference. It’s just that my spine is curved and my butt is big, so the difference isn’t as obvious for someone who doesn’t know my body. I’m thinking about going in tomorrow and saying “Ok. Look. This is me tucked. This is me released. See the difference? Now you know when I’m tucked.”

Midoria,
Have you tried physical therapy yet?
This book
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Pelvic-Power-Exercises-Strength-Flexibility/dp/0871272598/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223314002&sr= 8-1]Amazon.com: Pelvic Power: Mind/Body Exercises for Strength, Flexibility, Posture, and Balance for Men and Women: Eric Franklin: Books[/ame]
might prove useful to you as well. "sway back", anterior tilting pelvis and "knock kneed" often go hand in hand - and can be worked on together as they all effect each other.
If you stand with your hands on your sit bones, you'll find if you turn your knees in your sit bones will be a tiny bit higher. Being knock need often means anterior tilting pelvis and more arch in the lower back. You mention your feet turn out when you have your knees straight forward- how are your arches? Do your arches fall in? Do your shoes wear more on the inner part of the sole as opposed to the outer part? Orthotics (arch supports) might help as well.
Kashmir's comment about the orientation of the pelvis is also what I would say. Everyone's spine naturally has curve in it- to a different degree. It's how your pelvis is angled (it should be vertical) that is important.

Originally Posted by Midoria

I understand that being tucked helps keep you from injury, but my tucked is not like everyone else’s. There is a difference between not being tucked at all and not LOOKING tucked. I keep telling the teachers “I am tucked”, but they don’t seem to believe me. They keep pestering me until I’m over-tucked and then start pestering me for being stiff. What do they expect? I’m almost doubled over!

I had a similar problem with not "looking tucked" when I "felt tucked" - what it ended up being for me was not a pelvic tucking issue at all. My ribcage was not lifted and forward enough. Once I built up the upper back strength to hold my ribcage up and forward, that helped align my torso correctly over my butt and that apparent lower back curve disappeared.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Midoria,
Have you tried physical therapy yet?
This book
Amazon.com: Pelvic Power: Mind/Body Exercises for Strength, Flexibility, Posture, and Balance for Men and Women: Eric Franklin: Books
might prove useful to you as well. "sway back", anterior tilting pelvis and "knock kneed" often go hand in hand - and can be worked on together as they all effect each other.
If you stand with your hands on your sit bones, you'll find if you turn your knees in your sit bones will be a tiny bit higher. Being knock need often means anterior tilting pelvis and more arch in the lower back. You mention your feet turn out when you have your knees straight forward- how are your arches? Do your arches fall in? Do your shoes wear more on the inner part of the sole as opposed to the outer part? Orthotics (arch supports) might help as well.
Kashmir's comment about the orientation of the pelvis is also what I would say. Everyone's spine naturally has curve in it- to a different degree. It's how your pelvis is angled (it should be vertical) that is important.

I may try and get the book. I can't afford any therapy at the moment because I'm in school and in debt. I just do my pilates at home. I may try and see an orthopedist since they are covered by insurance.

My knees actually fall inward when I point my toes straight ahead. My thighs lock up as well. Turning my feet about a bit makes everything fall correctly, which is why I got myself in the habit of doing it 10 years ago.

Originally Posted by Midoria

I'm new to bellydance, but I've been dancing since I was 12. I know my body.

Many of us have pretty good body awareness, but very very few have the exceptional body awareness that F.M. Alexander developed with himself and then shared with others. I am more and more in awe of him as I learn more about AT and also the shortcomings of my own "body awareness", which I used to think very highly of. I used to say things very much like what you are saying, and I have been proven wrong time and again. For example, I have very little curvature in my spine. In the past, x-rays of my neck have shown either a complete lack of curve, or even worse, a slight curve in the wrong direction. I have very little thoracic curve and very little lumbar curve. Doctors and PTs have told me that I would always have limited mobility in my lower back because some of my lumbar vertebrae are partially fused together. I thought all this was placing insurmountable limitations on my dance, but I am learning it is not true. In the past 7 mos of working with my AT instructor, I have greatly increased the range of motion throughout my spine, and I also can see that my neck has a slightly more normal curve now.

Obviously, none of us on the board know you or your teacher. Perhaps you are exactly right and your teacher is wrong. But don't be so quick to discount the possibility that you could in fact change the way you use your body and thus change your posture.

The Alexander Technique looks really interesting. I probably wouldn’t do it just for dance (it’s only a hobby), but I might do it just for general well-being.

Just another comment on this. AT isn't exercise or therapy but body learning. Even if you are in pain, I doubt AT would exacerbate it. Most of my AT sessions consist of my instructor guiding my body in movements in very gentle ways. AT has the potential to help with all aspects of life. For me, I am doing it not only to improve my dance, but to improve and optimize the most precious thing I own -- my body.

I’m thinking about going in tomorrow and saying “Ok. Look. This is me tucked. This is me released. See the difference? Now you know when I’m tucked.”

(cont'd below)

My advice to your teacher would be to stop telling you to tuck.

My advice to you is to not close your mind to the possibility that you can change your body through synergistic body learning. When you tuck and untuck *right now* you are only experiencing two states within the parameters your body currently operates with. If you were to optimize your musculature head to toe, things *might* be different.

If your teacher is competent at all, she isn't looking at how protuberant your booty is, but is trying to judge the angle the pelvis is sitting in based on the front of your body and also how your hips look when doing the movements. As someone else pointed out, lumbar curve and pelvic tilt are two different things. Tucking the pelvis doesn't change the lumbar curve.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Tucking the pelvis doesn't change the lumbar curve.

*applause* hint: it doesn't require that you bend your knees, either, or thrust your pelvis out in front of your ribcage, or lift up your heels. Yeah, I've seen some stuff over the years....

On topic:

I have had students with this body type, and it seems to be more difficult for them to achieve a range of lower body motion than any other type. My students with this issue tend to lock their knees and lose their pelvic tilt more readily than others, and they have an *extremely* difficult time with things like vertical figure 8s -- the knees lock, the pelvic tilt disappears, and a twisting motion takes over.

I only have one long-term student with these issues, but after years of class she still struggles with the basic movements. It makes me really sad, but she has made it abundantly clear to me that she doesn't want any correction or assistance from me. ,f::

I hope my student doesn't feel like I'm trying to make her look like everyone else. I don't give one whit about conformity in my classes, I love that everyone's movements are uniquely her own. But I am trying to help her, because her stance is causing her knee pain and stopping her from being able to advance in the dance.

If I had these issues, I'd turn to Souzan for help. Souzan struggled HARD with some of these body issues and put a great deal of time, effort, and money into finding solutions and working through it. She's been there, and she knows.

Originally Posted by Midoria

Kashmir:
This is true, but we stretch for at least 10 minutes (usually 15) in class. We do a lot of hammy, glue, and abdominal work stretches. And if I get there early, I do some extra stretches on my own before class starts.

I take it this is after a good 10-15 minutes cardio? And of specific muscle groups? (combination "stretches" only over work the already flexible bits while the stiff bits stay stiff - for example the way to get to do the splits is not to practice the splits but bits of it). Also are you aware of exactly how the stretches should be done to be effective? If not, is your teacher? Does she correct people?

Sorry to sound preachy, but a lot of "stretches" done in dance classes are of limited use. (If I had the time i could drag out the research)

ETA: RE spinal curve vs pelvic tilt - it can be checked - but needs some hands on. You need to find the bumpy bits front and back of the illiac crest. The front should be only a fraction lower - this is known as a neutral pelvis (I have a diagram in my safe dance glossary)

I'm wondering if part of the problem (you say if tou tuck you become stiff) is terminology. It isn't so much needing to tuck - which usually brings in the glutes for many people - but lift from the front. If you lift your bikini line rather than tuck your butt.

Okay, can I just say that I am really impressed?

I don't usually read down the thread this far on other sites without supressing the urge to roll my eyes at some of the advice given.

My mother is a physio of 35 yrs + and she and I have both spent most of our lives researching and trying different methods to alleviate such problems. Way to go ladies! I will not hesitate to ask if I need a little more info.

I started dance very similarly, sway back, knock knees--couldn't keep my kneecaps pointing over my toes in a squat to save my life, my lower back screamed in complaint if I tried to lie flat on my back on the floor. A couple of years of yoga, regular chiropractor visits and therapeutic massage have made a big difference. As others have said in this thread, these problems are often due to weakness in the muscles of the thighs and hips, and yoga is certainly something that will strengthen those muscles. The chiropractor and the massage helped break my body's patterns. And yes, I did four or five classes in Alexander Technique which gave me the mental tools to understand and combat my body's ingrained and counterproductive habits.

Dance for me is a hobby (albeit an obsessive one), but my hobby has given me insight into body mechanics that will improve the rest of my life. It's a valuable lesson.

I just want to reiterate that nothing hurts. My issues is that I'm constantly being told (even after almost two straight years of belly dance) that my posture is still wrong. I am constantly told "it takes some getting used to". And yet two years later my body still rejects what these women feel I should be doing. I want it to be enjoyable, but really, I'm on the verge of quitting classes and just taking one of those bellydance for fitness classes at the gym. I just feel like I'm back in ballet and being told that I'm sticking my tail out. I take belly dance to learn something new and feel good about myself, but I feel like it's only called attention to things that I've forgotten about (I was teased a lot as a child because my back was so curved and my butt stuck out so far. Kids used to walk around the playground in a cruel imitation of me. I had totally forgotten about it until now.)

What you also have to remember is that Sahara dance teachers all take the same training program and are taught to teach the same way. I'm wondering if maybe I should switch studios, but nothing else in DC is at a reasonable distance. Plus I already paid my $225 (which I had to borrow from my mom) so I might as well see this term through. I doubt I will return though.

I thank your ladies for your help and support, but at this point, I'm overwhelmed and frustrated. It's just not fun anymore and the thought of having to to add on yoga, see doctors, and do various techniques just to be able to dance to an acceptable level is a bit more than I bargained for. I think I just need to step back, grin and bear it, and let this all go.

But once again, thanks so much for your efforts. I do appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Midoria

I just want to reiterate that nothing hurts. My issues is that I'm constantly being told (even after almost two straight years of belly dance) that my posture is still wrong. I am constantly told "it takes some getting used to".

Hi Midoria! I'm glad you're not having any pain! I can understand why you don't like the idea of being steered to all sorts of health care professionals when, from your perspective, you don't have a health problem.

I do think you can belly dance to an acceptable skill level despite the posture you've told us about. I don't think it would stop you from becoming a skilled dancer - after all, Delilah has a posture similar to what you've described and she's a fabulous performer.

If you were my student, I would hope that you would take me aside privately and have a conversation with me in which you courteously but firmly explain how you've tried for years to change it, change hasn't happened, you've accepted the fact that this is what your body is like, and now you want ME, your teacher, to accept it too. I would want you to be emphatic with me that you enjoy belly dancing and want to continue, but this posture issue is a deal-breaker, and you want me to quit harping on it. If one of my students had such a conversation with me, I would agree to quit harassing her about the posture issue and try to work with her in a way that she would find more comfortable.

Now, not every teacher would react to such a conversation the way I would, but I offer it as an idea to try.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Hi Midoria! I'm glad you're not having any pain! I can understand why you don't like the idea of being steered to all sorts of health care professionals when, from your perspective, you don't have a health problem.

I do think you can belly dance to an acceptable skill level despite the posture you've told us about. I don't think it would stop you from becoming a skilled dancer - after all, Delilah has a posture similar to what you've described and she's a fabulous performer.

If you were my student, I would hope that you would take me aside privately and have a conversation with me in which you courteously but firmly explain how you've tried for years to change it, change hasn't happened, you've accepted the fact that this is what your body is like, and now you want ME, your teacher, to accept it too. I would want you to be emphatic with me that you enjoy belly dancing and want to continue, but this posture issue is a deal-breaker, and you want me to quit harping on it. If one of my students had such a conversation with me, I would agree to quit harassing her about the posture issue and try to work with her in a way that she would find more comfortable.

Now, not every teacher would react to such a conversation the way I would, but I offer it as an idea to try.

This is great advice. As a teacher, I'd be *very* responsive to a student having this kind of conversation with me!

Originally Posted by Midoria

What you also have to remember is that Sahara dance teachers all take the same training program and are taught to teach the same way.

Very true, but they don't all have the same level of expertise, experience, sensitivity, or body awareness. Before you give up, try taking this concern to Rachel, Elysa, and/or Ebony if you haven't already done so. I don't know who you're studying with (I apologize if you've mentioned this above and I've missed it) and I don't know all the teachers at Sahara, but if anyone over there can give you a more satisfactory, constructive response on this particular issue, I'd bet it would be one of those three.

If you do decide to try for a better fit elsewhere and want some leads on teachers, please PM or e-mail me. My swayback, my big butt, and I will be happy to help.

Suzana
info at suzanadance dot com

Hey Midoria,
I had no idea you were experiencing this someplace local. I encourage you to continue your studies- as Zana said, maybe someone else at the same studio can help you more? You said you borrowed money to pay for it- maybe you can switch to a class with a teacher who has more experience with back issues and posture.
In DC we have a WIDE range of experience. Some teachers professional dancers of over 30 years and teaching more than 20, some studios hire teachers with less than two years experience. It all depends upon your priorities in a class. I'd be happy to share with you my positive experiences with various teachers. PM me if you like.
I hope you find what you are looking for.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

If you were my student, I would hope that you would take me aside privately and have a conversation with me . . . If one of my students had such a conversation with me, I would agree to quit harassing her about the posture issue and try to work with her in a way that she would find more comfortable.

I am a dancer with "issues" that sometimes require me to modify movement and/or compensate for my physical limitations. Therefore, when I take class, I inform Teacher of what he/she is going to see me do that is "in error," that I am aware of "proper" technque, and that the modifications I make are necessary for me to create the movement.

There's never been a problem.

Of course, being a long-time pro dancer and teacher myself give me a certain amount of confidence to make these statements . . .

Deborah

Some of the teachers I know who have taught the longest are the least safe in their practice, either because they haven't kept up to date on dance and exercise physiology as it is currently taught, or because they never developed an understanding of it to begin with. I wouldn't necessarily use decades of experience as a predictor of a good outcome, particularly in dealing with issues like the ones Midoria is facing. It's one factor, for sure, but not necessarily a determining factor.

That's a really good idea, Deborah. I do it, too, and have found most teachers to be very receptive and understanding. Saves a lot of time and frustration!

Originally Posted by Zana

Some of the teachers I know who have taught the longest are the least safe in their practice, either because they haven't kept up to date on dance and exercise physiology as it is currently taught, or because they never developed an understanding of it to begin with. I wouldn't necessarily use decades of experience as a predictor of a good outcome, particularly in dealing with issues like the ones Midoria is facing. It's one factor, for sure, but not necessarily a determining factor.

Zana, Thanks for always being so astute with my erroneous wording.
You are absolutely right in that "decades of experience" is not the end all and be all factor. ..g.: ESPECIALLY with the vague meaning of "experience". I could watch Suzie Nippletassles latest instructional 10 times and call it "experience". ..cr.:
Quality and depth of experience, quality and depth of education, dedication to learning, dedication to *continued learning*, natural aptitude, related training/disciplines - these all play into it (and most of them take quite some time to develop breadth in). I was honestly rolling ALL of that into "experience" because that's what I consider to be experience. BUT- not everyone does- so you right- it's more accurate to differentiate and really understand a teacher's background.