Thread: Certification ~ Validity Questions

Ok, so I was curious about Suhaila's certification program after seeing some manuals, etc... for sale in the swapmeet. Suhaila's technique is well-recognized, and is specific to a certain style, so I can understand undergoing certification before claiming to teach her style of dance.

However... in my curiosity I jumped online & googled "belly dance certification" to see what would pop up. Not too surprisingly, I guess, a whole bunch of stuff popped up--and a whole bunch of people I've never heard of (which really doesn't mean anything, I guess).

So what exactly does "certification" mean to us bellydancers? I guess somewhere out there is a "Suzy Nippletassel's Bellydance for Dummies Level 1 Certification" .... How are we as dancers (much less the GP) supposed to know exactly what this certification stuff is all about? Certification doesn't necessarily mean quality (unless the "certifier" is a well-known and respected dancer like Suhaila), right?

Hmm. Can someone be Tito certified ~ cuz that's what I wanna be when I "grow up" hee hee......g.:

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Certification doesn't necessarily mean quality (unless the "certifier" is a well-known and respected dancer like Suhaila), right?

And not even then, really, if the well-known and respected dancer certifies anyone who completes her program, whether they do it competently or not.

Tito can certify me any time he wants.

it means not a whole lot to me. It means nothing to the venues that I teach at. I think it means a really through workshop and a nice paycheck for the instructor.

Nilaja

Originally Posted by theesfield

it means not a whole lot to me. It means nothing to the venues that I teach at. I think it means a really through workshop and a nice paycheck for the instructor.

Nilaja

I am with you on this one! No offense to all the Suhaila fans out there, but just being able to layer seven different things, with hips moving in half-time and feet going quarter-time does not mean you are a good dancer. It just means that you have passed an exam with the criteria that she has created. Likewise for any other certification method - I used Suhaila as my example because that is one that I have heard about a lot!

I think certification programs can have merit for people who are goal-oriented. They provide a way of measuring a certain level of achievement. Now, whether the thing the certificate measures is worth achieving is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

I would consider taking a certification program if the material being taught was something I wanted to learn. So for me, it wouldn't be about acquiring the certificate, but rather about what I would learn along the way.

I have considered taking Hadia's teacher certification because I'd be very interested in learning what she teaches about anatomy and how it relates to our dance. I am planning to take Sahra's "Journey Through Egypt" both parts 1 & 2, which both include a certification when you complete them, but again my motive is that I want to learn what she's teaching. The piece of paper itself isn't important to me.

Originally Posted by damiena

I am with you on this one! No offense to all the Suhaila fans out there, but just being able to layer seven different things, with hips moving in half-time and feet going quarter-time does not mean you are a good dancer. It just means that you have passed an exam with the criteria that she has created. Likewise for any other certification method - I used Suhaila as my example because that is one that I have heard about a lot!

EXACTLY how I feel. I can appreciate the difficulty, but really. To each his own I guess. I personally have issues with after even you get "certified", you have to attend x amount of additional training or you have to retest. Screams money making scheme to me.

Disclaimer-I am in no way bashing Suhaila. She's has her own unique style that I am not fond of but that doesn't mean she isn't a good dancer.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Hmm. Can someone be Tito certified ~ cuz that's what I wanna be when I "grow up" hee hee......g.:

Actually, there is a rumor that Tito will be coming to LA teach a weeklong certification next year. I'll keep you posted if it materializes.

I think the certification programs must be taken with a grain of salt. I took Zahra's Teacher Training certification, but I don't think it automatically makes me a super teacher (though it apparently qualifies me to sub Zahra's classes). I've taken Sahra's JtE 1 and am taking JtE 2 in January, but like Shira said, it's not about the paper. I have been hoping to take Hadia's certification because I think she's highly skilled and has a lot to teach regarding kineseology and injury prevention. I have taken classes with a teacher who is level-two Suhaila certified and she kicked my butt up and down the dance floor. On the other hand, I have good friends who took the 6-week Ansuya certification and they wondered what exactly they paid for. So, I think cerfications look good on paper but the actual training and content will vary depending on the teacher and the material, and you as a dancer much choose wisely (or risk wasting your time and money).

Originally Posted by nasila

Actually, there is a rumor that Tito will be coming to LA teach a weeklong certification next year. I'll keep you posted if it materializes.

Oh oh oh oh oh I am drooling now! Please do keep me posted so I can start selling all my possessions & working overtime to accumulate the leave & money!!! .w.:

I would guess that I would only pursue a certification if I felt that the technique was something I wanted to learn or if I needed to be certified to teach belly dance at the college level (there are programs for this as well). I love a lot of dancers, but I don't love any so much that I want to spend exorbitant amounts of money on just one to be "certified." Not sure if that makes sense....

Originally Posted by JasmineRose

I personally have issues with after even you get "certified", you have to attend x amount of additional training or you have to retest. Screams money making scheme to me.

This doesn't bother me. Out in the real world, it is common for certification programs to require continuing education and sometimes retesting to remain certified.

I used to be a Red Cross-certified Water Safety Instructor. But I didn't do the required things to retain the certification, so my certification lapsed a couple of decades ago. But that's okay - I no longer feel qualified to BE a lifeguard, let alone teaching others to be lifeguards, because I've forgotten too much and my body no longer has the muscle tone in the specific muscles required to do a rescue if one should be needed.

My mother used to teach language arts in high school. She needed to attend continuing education classes on a regular basis to retain her teaching license.

My massage therapist is taking a hiatus from working right now because his license lapsed and he has to go get some continuing education in order to renew his license.

There are seven doctors in my family. In order to keep their licenses, they need to obtain periodic continuing education. That's okay with me - I wouldn't want to seek health care from a doctor who hadn't gotten any updated training in the last 10 years.

So, in other fields, continuing education is a common requirement to retain certifications or licenses. Therefore, it makes sense to me that someone who established a belly dance certification program would expect occasional re-certification to ensure that the person still possesses the skills that the certification measures.

For example, if someone claims to be certified in Suhaila's Level 2, it seems logical to me that they should be able to demonstrate the skills associated with that. If they got their certification 3 years ago and then failed to stay in the necessary physical condition to do the skills, then I don't think they should be allowed to continue claiming it.

Originally Posted by loveme

faithodily@yahoo.com)

Flutter off..................g.:

Crap. We should all pitch in and get Rosey a pager, so when we hit alert on a post, her pager goes off! (Bet she'd *love* that.)

Originally Posted by *Shira*

This doesn't bother me. Out in the real world, it is common for certification programs to require continuing education and sometimes retesting to remain certified.

I used to be a Red Cross-certified Water Safety Instructor. But I didn't do the required things to retain the certification, so my certification lapsed a couple of decades ago. But that's okay - I no longer feel qualified to BE a lifeguard, let alone teaching others to be lifeguards, because I've forgotten too much and my body no longer has the muscle tone in the specific muscles required to do a rescue if one should be needed.

My mother used to teach language arts in high school. She needed to attend continuing education classes on a regular basis to retain her teaching license.

My massage therapist is taking a hiatus from working right now because his license lapsed and he has to go get some continuing education in order to renew his license.

There are seven doctors in my family. In order to keep their licenses, they need to obtain periodic continuing education. That's okay with me - I wouldn't want to seek health care from a doctor who hadn't gotten any updated training in the last 10 years.

So, in other fields, continuing education is a common requirement to retain certifications or licenses. Therefore, it makes sense to me that someone who established a belly dance certification program would make sense.

For example, if someone claims to be certified in Suhaila's Level 2, it seems logical to me that they should be able to demonstrate the skills associated with that. If they got their certification 3 years ago and then failed to stay in the necessary physical condition to do the skills, then I don't think they should be allowed to continue claiming it.

I agree-I see your point!

Originally Posted by nasila

Actually, there is a rumor that Tito will be coming to LA teach a weeklong certification next year. I'll keep you posted if it materializes.

Every time Tito has come to town, I've missed it. Same for Hadia.

Dang!

Hope I can improve my record.

Deborah

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Flutter off..................g.:

Oh, this is too cute :)


Khalida

Originally Posted by *Shira*

For example, if someone claims to be certified in Suhaila's Level 2, it seems logical to me that they should be able to demonstrate the skills associated with that. If they got their certification 3 years ago and then failed to stay in the necessary physical condition to do the skills, then I don't think they should be allowed to continue claiming it.

Suhaila requires her certified dancers maintain CEC's (continuing education credits) in order to keep your certification. So if you don't keep them up you loose your certification. Sad to say, one of my friends just lost hers cause she could not maintain her required CEC's. Now she has to start over again.

All of this information is on her website. Along with a list of certified dancers, so if someone claims to be certified you can go to the website and see if they are listed. If their name is not on the list then they are no longer certified.

I heard a rumor Hadia may stop touring, at least for a while.

Originally Posted by Sonja2

Ok, so I was curious about Suhaila's certification program after seeing some manuals, etc... for sale in the swapmeet. Suhaila's technique is well-recognized, and is specific to a certain style, so I can understand undergoing certification before claiming to teach her style of dance.

Hi Sonja

When I attended my level one certification Suhaila told us to throw out everything we knew. Did not matter what level or how long we have danced. Everyone starts as a beginner in her program. The reason being, Suhaila does not teach stylization. She teaches a dance technique and a whole lot more if you look over her course descriptions.

Once we have that technique she encouraged us to find our own stylization. I was surprised when she suggested an assignment to me to do my next belly dance performance to Black Sabbath.

Well didn't do Black Sabbath since a lot of their lyrics are vulgar but I did do Belly Metal to Metalica and it was a big hit at Saqra's showcase when I presented it. But she encourages us to find our own voice and stylization using her techniques.

Originally Posted by txchic

I heard a rumor Hadia may stop touring, at least for a while.

She's pretty much said as much - there is an article on Orientaldancer.net.

Originally Posted by txchic

I heard a rumor Hadia may stop touring, at least for a while.

She was in Seattle this summer and verified that. She said she'll no longer tour/teach in America, but may still do a few other places. She's also re-located from Montreal to East Canada.

I was hoping to do her teacher training in Bali in April, but we've had too many expenses this year (i.e. our water heater blew out). ,m::
I asked if she'll do it in 2010 and she said no, so I think she may really be going into retirement.

As for certification, I think it shows a dancer is committed to learning but in no way says a dancer is any good.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Tito can certify me any time he wants.

I'm next in line!..g.:

(for Tito Certifying of course, lol)

Originally Posted by Taj

And not even then, really, if the well-known and respected dancer certifies anyone who completes her program, whether they do it competently or not.

That's a point I was going to raise... does anyone ever fail? If nobody fails, then are they all being passed merely because they pay? Does anyone know of anyone who has been failed? I have a sneaking suspicion the fail rate is exceedingly low if non-existent. Has anyone been told that they are simply not good enough to pass? Or been assessed as being at beginner level when they thought they were at a higher level. I know... I'm being cynical......c::

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

That's a point I was going to raise... does anyone ever fail? If nobody fails, then are they all being passed merely because they pay? Does anyone know of anyone who has been failed? I have a sneaking suspicion the fail rate is exceedingly low if non-existent. Has anyone been told that they are simply not good enough to pass? Or been assessed as being at beginner level when they thought they were at a higher level. I know... I'm being cynical......c::

I think but I am not sure that people have falied/had to retest for Suhaila's certification program. On the other hand, what if people continuously fail and are allowed to retest multiple times? Is it because they will continue to pay for more training if they fail? I'm sure it is a little unlikely but just wondering. When do you tell someone they just aren't going to make it in your certification program? How many times do you let them fail? Slightly off topic I know...

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

That's a point I was going to raise... does anyone ever fail? If nobody fails, then are they all being passed merely because they pay? Does anyone know of anyone who has been failed? I have a sneaking suspicion the fail rate is exceedingly low if non-existent. Has anyone been told that they are simply not good enough to pass? Or been assessed as being at beginner level when they thought they were at a higher level. I know... I'm being cynical......c::

With respect to Suhaila - the best thing to do is to ask her if she thinks you are ready. If she does not think you are ready to test - she will tell you so and will not let you test (i.e., not take your money for naught). And yes, there have been students who failed either one portion of the test or the other (there are 2 parts to the test - written and practical - and you must pass both in order to pass the certification for Levels 1 and 2). For Levels 3 and up there are additional "layers" (pun intended) of testing to pass certification. ..l;,

I cannot speak for other certification programs, as I don't know anything about those.

I love workshops/classes, learning new things, but personally if I am going to take a workshop from on teacher one year, and the next year if that teacher teaches pretty much the same thing (mixed level class) even though I expect this class to be little different, at least that is what I read in the flyer or outline, I dont go to taht teacher to waste my money.
I am under Suhaila and Jamila and Mahmoud Reda (from my local teacher) and Ibrahim Farrah training and I would not see any faster improvement on my technique if I was not Suhaila's student. I have learnt how to organize, classify my moves, how to coordinate, how to use my muscles and how to layer with feetwork that used in Ballet which is basic of most dances, at least if you are ballet trained, your next dance form would be developed so much faster (what I have seen so far).
So this is what I learn with Suhaila's workshops, and I am glad I did find her...I dont mind spending my money for something valuable (either she makes thousands or milliions, she is well worth it). Her technique is like a standard ballet class, everywhere you take it, it is the same. dont you like that... you expect the same quality

Originally Posted by turkishdancer

I love workshops/classes, learning new things, but personally if I am going to take a workshop from on teacher one year, and the next year if that teacher teaches pretty much the same thing (mixed level class) even though I expect this class to be little different, at least that is what I read in the flyer or outline, I dont go to taht teacher to waste my money.
I am under Suhaila and Jamila and Mahmoud Reda (from my local teacher) and Ibrahim Farrah training and I would not see any faster improvement on my technique if I was not Suhaila's student. I have learnt how to organize, classify my moves, how to coordinate, how to use my muscles and how to layer with feetwork that used in Ballet which is basic of most dances, at least if you are ballet trained, your next dance form would be developed so much faster (what I have seen so far).
So this is what I learn with Suhaila's workshops, and I am glad I did find her...I dont mind spending my money for something valuable (either she makes thousands or milliions, she is well worth it). Her technique is like a standard ballet class, everywhere you take it, it is the same. dont you like that... you expect the same quality

Just curious -- did you get your training directly from Ibrahim Farrah?

Bobby had probably already passed when Dilek started dancing, she is a young woman.

Originally Posted by patrisha

Bobby had probably already passed when Dilek started dancing, she is a young woman.

Yeah, he's been gone over 10 years. ..cr.:..cr.: Still miss him.

As one of the students of the LA Ansuya Compehensive I can certainly say that I learned a lot about different aspects of the dance and performing. We met for a whole weekend every month, and there were opportunities to perform at the Student Salon after every workshop. Both of these things in tandem taught you technique, and performance skills. If you missed a class, you did not automatically receive your certificate, there were make up sessions available, it was not "you paid now you get your certificate" not at all. Like Dilek mentioned, for me it was more about learning to organize my thoughts and dance. If people don't know what they paid for, then they really weren't paying attention : ) That woman WORKED us. From the ground up. Of course we couldn't all take every single bit of information in, but personally I feel that it did strengthen my choreography skills, which I really didn't have much of going in. Not to mention she taught us the value of discipline and hard work. Both of those lessons are sorely lacking in the day to day classes I've attended. She was extremely well organized, which is refreshing. And she provided us with a manual that allowed us to review, and check off specific moves and combinations. To someone who is used to learning choreographies, I can see how that would be invaluable, but again, I don't and I still found them useful. The best part of the whole thing was getting to know her as a real person and dancer. Her style is organic and fiery just like her real personality. I really enjoyed the classroom atmosphere and formed many friendships during the course of 8 months - that is another reason I would say it rocked. Learning from someone you admire, in the company of those who are there to learn as well, was invaluable. We actually formed practice groups and got together between workshops to practice. We weren't formally tested, but we did go over every single move, rhythm, and combination written in the manual. It was hard work, but rewarding. I found it invaluable information, straight from the source. It's not for everyone though. There were a few dancers who thought they "knew everything" - you just can't know everything, and taking that attitude is unfortunate for them. I've been studying since 92 and performing since 2000 and I found many things that were new to me, or learned to do things differently. It helped push me out of my comfort zones, which many people don't like to do so I can understand why they wouldn't find it valuable. As in life, if you go into it with an open mind you will always find something that catches your wonder, it's only when we have preconceived notions of things that we suffer dissillusionment and discomfort. If you are thinking of studying with someone to get a certification, my main suggestion is that you already love that persons style and are interested in adding some of it to your own.