Thread: Teachers graded at beginner levels teaching??

I found out that a teacher of a friends was only graded by the folk that judge new teachers etc was only graded at beginner level and then charges folk money. I don't know where I stand on this because my friend loved her lessons but is it morally right or wrong.....Please dont go jumping on my back as I do not have an opinion on it but it would be interesting to hear others..

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

I found out that a teacher of a friends was only graded by the folk that judge new teachers etc was only graded at beginner level and then charges folk money. I don't know where I stand on this because my friend loved her lessons but is it morally right or wrong.....Please dont go jumping on my back as I do not have an opinion on it but it would be interesting to hear others..

Well it kind of depends on who the "folk that judge new teachers etc" are, and what their standards are, and what exactly they were "judging" this teacher on, and how she holds herself out.

And by the way I'm one of the "folk that judge new teachers etc". I'm a tutor on the JWAAD Foundation Courses.

see what I mean already with you being funny by putting everything in inverted commars. Its a shame that I have to specify that it was just me asking a question and that I had no opinion. I am not talking about myself or the organisation that graded the woman. I do believe it was a decent well respected organisation. Possibly yours...who knows.
I was just asking for general feed back and suprise suprise people are too quick to be so defensive and sharp.
I used to apologise for my opinion and how I conducted myself but no longer.

hello Tribal Butterfyly

as a teacher myself, who sometimes offers teachers training possibilities.
i have NO power what soever over what people do with their knowledge and craft (or lack thereof) afterwards. I also have had and without a doubt will have again students that leave my school and start teaching before they are ready. it's unavoidable. all anyone can do is try to be professional themselves, and try to instill the same in their students...


i think bea also wanted to say, that, at whatever level the teacher training program your friends teacher took graded her, that program, well, doesnt have any power in than what that teacher DOES. nor, if we dont know the program do we know what "beginners" means, and what the program is worth. there is NO standard for oriental dance teaching/training/ etc

if you read around here on bhuz, you will find a lot of posts about "six week wonders", and teachers with bad posture and what have you not. i sometimes also get students that demonstrate what they have been taught elsewhere and it hurts my eyes as much as it must do their backs.. but the only thing we can all do about it , is trying not to do the same... and myself, i try to offer workshops, study opportunities for teachers with international guest teachers etc, and that way hope we all together get the level and level of safety up.

Artemisia

Thanks Artemisia xxx good words

I was trying to work out what the question is, and pointing out my personal interest in the topic, just so you know the angle I'm coming from. I wasn't defending anything.

The question, as you presented it, seems to be about judging a specific teacher, but you weren't clear whether this person was being judged as a dancer, a teacher, or as a performer. You didn't specify who was doing the judging. You didn't say why she was being judged, nor on what occasion (a competition? dance training? teacher training?).

The identity of the judge makes quite a difference to my personal opinion. Knowing what the judge is looking for, and what standard they are applying makes a difference to my opinion. What the teacher is saying about themselves and their teaching makes a difference to my opinion. If she's saying "I'm a highly trained and qualified teacher", that's different to if she's saying, "I'm teaching this group, because there are no other teachers in this area and I know I'm not brilliant, but I'm willing to share what I know".

I do agree with Artemisia's comment about being unable to control what a student of mine does once they have finished my course. She made the point very clearly. However, I hadn't even got as far as considering that.

Is this from some sort of school or certification program? What does it mean to be graded? Is that a process, like receiving a grade, or does it indicate a status or level of proficiency?

Also:

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

see what I mean already with you being funny by putting everything in inverted commars. Its a shame that I have to specify that it was just me asking a question and that I had no opinion. I am not talking about myself or the organisation that graded the woman. I do believe it was a decent well respected organisation. Possibly yours...who knows.
I was just asking for general feed back and suprise suprise people are too quick to be so defensive and sharp.
I used to apologise for my opinion and how I conducted myself but no longer.

By "inverted commars" do you mean quotation marks - " " ? I ask b/c I know sometimes people use those to indicate the dubious status of a word, but I read them as being used to quote you, as I have done above.

Since you speak of the "folk that judge new teachers etc" and there is no standard definition for this phrase, I think it was necessary to quote you to indicate that these were your words and could possibly mean something different to another. I really don't think there was any malice intended there.

The JWAAD course runs on 2 levels.

I'm sure that Bea will know the details a lot better than I do but everyone *has* to go through the foundation level first and the foundation level teaches and assesses your ability to teach at beginners level. So, being assessed as being able to do this is neither a good nor a bad thing.

Don't forget that 'beginners level' involves all of the absolute vitals such as safety and good posture which are relevant to dancers and athletes at any level.

Its about striving for a level of consistency, as much as anything else.

Fewer people go and do the next level of the course (which by the way, doesn't make you qualified to teach 'advanced' level and just what that is is a massive source of debate in itself).

There are very significant costs involved, especially in taking the second course and the vast majority of UK classes are structured around beginners level belly dance anyway: Comparatively few students have either the ability or the inclination to take their dance studies further and this is a reality that any prospective dance teacher has to take on board.

As a result, improver, intermediate and anything above that have to look into taking privates, attending more workshops and structuring their personal practice time in order to improve. Again, this is neither good, nor bad, its just how things are right now.

I would add that many of the best teachers I have ever learned from (including Egyptians) have absolutely no teacher qualification or started teaching and then qualified much later.

That said, I have the utmost respect for those who do the JWAAD course and the people who instruct on it (one of whom is my own teacher).

Originally Posted by khadiya

The JWAAD course runs on 2 levels.

Thanks, I'm in the US, but this looks like a great program.

Oh hello evrybody. Been busy with a show, been busy on OD (oops slap my hand),been lurking though.
Feel compelled to answer as this is someone in my area..although I don't know who.
Speaking as someone who has been on the foundation JWAAD course and passed it, it might be better to clarify.
there are different levels of beginners, improvers and intermediate and all the way up to advanced to be classified upon as a dancer. Now these can be seen to be narrow criteria and based solely on Jo Wise's definition of Egyptian ( of course one has to standardise) not on Turkish or tribal or anyone else's.
After 10 years of dancing and although my ears burnt to be told I was a graceful and accomplished dancer, I am nowhere near being an advanced dancer. Quite rightly so..there are a few, a very few of them in the UK.
Once graded you are told what level you can teach to and for most of us that is beginners
Oooo is she graded a beginner or graded to teach beginners..there is a difference.?
Most of us will teach beginners most of the time and as Sara Farouk said in a teacher training session...what is more important than teaching beginners?
There is a lot of arguement as to wether or not one should go on these courses. I know of a few ASMED,JWAAD, a Manchester based one, Hossam Ramzy, RSS and I believe Shafeek is training or going to.
If this teacher were an absolute beginner, she would not have been given the go-ahead by JWAAD unless she were remarkable.
But shall we give her kudos for going on a course in the first place?
As one who doesn't take money off students, my employer does that and has an employer who has insisted to see my credentials as a teacher-teacher and a dance teacher, I am very grateful I don't give my students fuel to go muttering behind my back.
And I am puzzled...why go to a teacher you have no repect for? You quit and find another.

Oh and another thought.
It isn't always the best dancers who make the best teachers. They are two different skills. Of course one has to have a sound grasp of technique...you also have to be able to disseminate and teacher training while not essential for everyone is useful but it is...bl**dy expensive for those on a limited income.

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

I found out that a teacher of a friends was only graded by the folk that judge new teachers etc was only graded at beginner level and then charges folk money. I don't know where I stand on this because my friend loved her lessons but is it morally right or wrong.....Please dont go jumping on my back as I do not have an opinion on it but it would be interesting to hear others..

I think this depends on who did the grading. Most people on here who know me know my opinions about certifications. However, JWAAD is a long established teacher training course which has had the chance after such a long existence to hone and tailor it's modules. And with teachers like Bea on board, you're gonna get a good deal. But teacher training is a money cow, and now more and more people are setting up 'schools' all over the UK most of which I'd be dubious about spending money on. So, your rather obscure posting could do with being more specific. Which teacher training establishment are you referring to?

Seriously this is a about a teacher who from my knowledge does not come on here.
I was not judging. Read the topic line by line and you will see I was not being judgemental. Far from it...what I was actually doing was asking a question. If I was being judgemental I would make a sweeping statement or be voicing my opinions.
Once again the bhuz community gets wound up when someone who is looking for a teacher is trying to find out whats right and whats wrong and if any qualifcations or gradings matter.
Very sad you all have to throw toys out of the pram.

Originally Posted by khadiya

The JWAAD course runs on 2 levels.

I'm sure that Bea will know the details a lot better than I do but everyone *has* to go through the foundation level first and the foundation level teaches and assesses your ability to teach at beginners level. So, being assessed as being able to do this is neither a good nor a bad thing.

Don't forget that 'beginners level' involves all of the absolute vitals such as safety and good posture which are relevant to dancers and athletes at any level.

Its about striving for a level of consistency, as much as anything else.

Fewer people go and do the next level of the course (which by the way, doesn't make you qualified to teach 'advanced' level and just what that is is a massive source of debate in itself).

There are very significant costs involved, especially in taking the second course and the vast majority of UK classes are structured around beginners level belly dance anyway: Comparatively few students have either the ability or the inclination to take their dance studies further and this is a reality that any prospective dance teacher has to take on board.

As a result, improver, intermediate and anything above that have to look into taking privates, attending more workshops and structuring their personal practice time in order to improve. Again, this is neither good, nor bad, its just how things are right now.

I would add that many of the best teachers I have ever learned from (including Egyptians) have absolutely no teacher qualification or started teaching and then qualified much later.

That said, I have the utmost respect for those who do the JWAAD course and the people who instruct on it (one of whom is my own teacher).

Thanks...this is the advice i was after...not to cause conflict. Once again fab words from you missus!!

OH MY GOSH PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!! This post was about a friend NOT ME (yes hard to believe but i do have friends). There is a world out there and many people who teach bellydance and not all of them you know!!!! I dont even know the fookin womans name. If I had an agenda with someone who a) taught me or b) who I knew I would not publicy post messages to suggest things. Im 25 not 12 and I do not air my agendas. I made one post a few months back having a snipe at my old teacher who i have nothing but respect for. Your assumptions are just as dangerous as my posts it seems!!!

I really don't understand where this defensiveness is coming from. I don't see anyone attacking you or accusing you of being judgmental or, god forbid, having an opinion. Your original post needed some clarification, that's all.

sorry its just from personal messages in my inbox that it results in me feeling defensive and having to justify myself.
Its highly frustrating.

Hi Tribal Butterfly

I'm really glad that you found what I posted useful. Alhtough I know some of the teachers in your area fairly well, I didn't assume that you were attacking or referring to anyone in particular, more that you were confused about what you had heard/been told about teachers and teaching qualifications.

For everyone who wants to read more about the JWAAD course. Here's the link which outlines the course details and outcomes:

The Josephine Wise Academy of Arabic Dance | Teacher Training

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

OH MY GOSH PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!! This post was about a friend NOT ME (yes hard to believe but i do have friends). There is a world out there and many people who teach bellydance and not all of them you know!!!! I dont even know the fookin womans name. If I had an agenda with someone who a) taught me or b) who I knew I would not publicy post messages to suggest things. Im 25 not 12 and I do not air my agendas. I made one post a few months back having a snipe at my old teacher who i have nothing but respect for. Your assumptions are just as dangerous as my posts it seems!!!

Why are you attacking all of us? Why not respond to the individuals who PMd you?

Those of us reading are either trying to help or, in my case, trying to understand the situation enough to be helpful. (I don't know anything about this UK grading system, in the US there is no body that grades dancers or teachers in any meaningful way).

I don't think the entire Bhuz community deserves to be blasted here, or called judgmental.

I'm sorry but Tribal Butterfly, I'm not trying to sound mean, but this post you made is making you seem hyper sensitive. If you want to be upset with people; be upset with the ones who PMed you NOT THE ENTIRE bellydance community at Bhuz. I read through this post and I don't see anyone attacking you. I think it's in your head. I hope you find what you are looking for.

This is a good example of our flounce thread; if you missed it.

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

Seriously this is a about a teacher who from my knowledge does not come on here.
I was not judging. Read the topic line by line and you will see I was not being judgemental. Far from it...what I was actually doing was asking a question. If I was being judgemental I would make a sweeping statement or be voicing my opinions.
Once again the bhuz community gets wound up when someone who is looking for a teacher is trying to find out whats right and whats wrong and if any qualifcations or gradings matter.
Very sad you all have to throw toys out of the pram.

I have no idea what is in your in-box, perhaps your inbox is full of witch hunts, ghosts, and nastiness.... but people on this thread seem to have been asking you for clarification of the specifics behind your question so that they could better answer your question.. so I'm pretty ssure most of us don't understand where all these accusations of judgement, hostility and throwing toys comes from.

In a nutshell; WTF?!

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

I found out that a teacher of a friends was only graded by the folk that judge new teachers etc was only graded at beginner level and then charges folk money. I don't know where I stand on this because my friend loved her lessons but is it morally right or wrong.....Please dont go jumping on my back as I do not have an opinion on it but it would be interesting to hear others..

Okay I will be mean. Sweetie your opening statement is not clear. There are several run on sentences and incomplete statements. Maybe better put, like this.

My friends teacher received a grade of beginner level by others who judge instructors qualifications. This instructor then charges for lessons. Is it right for an instructor to charge for lessons if she is graded as a beginner? I don't know how I feel about this, but is it morally right or wrong?

Is that what you were trying to say? I'm just trying to clarify so I understand your question.

It still isn't clear whether the teacher was graded at beginner level on her dance ability or whether she was graded as being able to teach beginners. If the latter she is perfectly entitled to charge for lessons, as someone else has already said. What I wonder is who told the friend about this? I don't think it would be the teacher in question and I hope that it wasn't another teacher who took the same course, as that would be most unprofessional. Sorry if this point has been raised already, I haven't read the entire thread.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Okay I will be mean. Sweetie your opening statement is not clear. There are several run on sentences and incomplete statements. Maybe better put, like this.

My friends teacher received a grade of beginner level by others who judge instructors qualifications. This instructor then charges for lessons. Is it right for an instructor to charge for lessons if she is graded as a beginner? I don't know how I feel about this, but is it morally right or wrong?

Is that what you were trying to say? I'm just trying to clarify so I understand your question.

Hi Jahbie,

yes that question was raised also.....

IMO if someone is graded to teach beginners, then that person has every right to charge for lessons, as does a person without formal qualifications ( which as far as I know are not standardised, so the value of those qualifications is only in the eyes of those who believe they hold merit), but has been dancing for a number of years (one would hope) and advertises as a teacher ... whether that person is a good teacher or not. That is up to the student to judge in the long run. So overall - If one starts a BD class and 'teaches' whatever the level ... then that person has a right to charge for lessons. I am not a teacher so don't a vested interest in this subject.

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

sorry its just from personal messages in my inbox that it results in me feeling defensive and having to justify myself.
Its highly frustrating.

Aaah, the old PM's.... Don't let 'em get to you.

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

I found out that a teacher of a friends was only graded by the folk that judge new teachers etc was only graded at beginner level and then charges folk money. I don't know where I stand on this because my friend loved her lessons but is it morally right or wrong.....Please dont go jumping on my back as I do not have an opinion on it but it would be interesting to hear others..

To simplify things, and perhaps answer your question, you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince. There will be teachers who just don't do it for you, and teachers who do. Teachers who can dance, and some who can't. You can either go for a teacher with a certification, or go for one who inspires you with her style and expertise. You shop around. Is it morally right for a teacher to get paid for teaching no matter her level of expertise? Who's to say yes or no. If she gets paid then it's because she has students who are prepared to pay. A really bad teacher will end up with very few students. A good one will always have work. There is no right or wrong.

If your friend loved her lessons, what's the problem? If she loved her lessons, then she's obviously learning something. I personally believe that beginners need good sound tuition in technique and that someone who has no command of half decent technique should not be teaching, and the proof of this is usually found in the dancing of the person themselves. There are those who argue that a good dancer is not necessarily a good teacher...and this is true. But I don't believe that it works the other way round.

Not commenting on the weird drama, but is there anything like the JWAAD in the US? Would Hadia's teacher training be the closest?

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

To simplify things, and perhaps answer your question, you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince. There will be teachers who just don't do it for you, and teachers who do. Teachers who can dance, and some who can't. You can either go for a teacher with a certification, or go for one who inspires you with her style and expertise. You shop around. Is it morally right for a teacher to get paid for teaching no matter her level of expertise? Who's to say yes or no. If she gets paid then it's because she has students who are prepared to pay. A really bad teacher will end up with very few students. A good one will always have work. There is no right or wrong.

If your friend loved her lessons, what's the problem? If she loved her lessons, then she's obviously learning something. I personally believe that beginners need good sound tuition in technique and that someone who has no command of half decent technique should not be teaching, and the proof of this is usually found in the dancing of the person themselves. There are those who argue that a good dancer is not necessarily a good teacher...and this is true. But I don't believe that it works the other way round.

Ribbet........ Ribbet