Thread: WWBD? Teaching Advice

So there are a two teachers in the area, one who does this full time and me; which I do on the side and for fun. She has these large, elaborate productions in which all of her students are in. She works them hard, they are required to purchase costumes, etc. and her classes I guess are show-focused. She and I were good friends in the past and she supports my events by distributing flyers and pushing her students to go to them. We have lost touch to both of us being so busy.

So for the first time in the area I am offering an intermediate class due to demand. This is just meant to be a fun class, no requirements for performing and such, etc...which I sent through my mailing list which is also used for promoting events, etc. Hence some of her student's emails are on the list

And to my surprise 8 of her more advance students signed up immediately, with emails stating that they're frusterated with XYZ and the requirements for the classes, performances, and overpriced costumes, etc. They want more and are just fed up with XYZ's processes and class structure. Some of them said they are going to ask ABC too if they want to come.

So, they're signing up for my class, I believe dropping hers, and telling others to come as well. I totally have a lot of respect for this woman and the amazing dance empire she has created, however I think her structure is pushing some of her students away.

Now I always tell my students to go try different teachers, and try new things and I encourage these ladies to do the same. but I feel that this might blow up in my face and she may feel I'm stealling her students. I'm totally not a katty person at all and literally just want to dance and share what I know.

Eeek?

Call her and talk to her about it? It could only help because maybe she will realize she is pushing students away and you can let her know that you arent intending to steal students from her

That would be easy, however I don't think that would go over well. She has a huge annual show next weekend and I wouldn't want to jepordize and of her thoughts/and relationships with her students. A few of her students have tried too; she just has such a strong personality.

I agree, I think you have to call and talk to her about it (I'd wait til after the student show). You inadvertently committed a bit of a faux pas here. The only reason you had her students' e-mail addresses is because she's been supporting your events. She will probably see it as a breach of faith that you e-mailed her students inviting them to an ongoing class that could replace hers.

At least, I know *I* would see it as a breach of faith. Around here, most of us teachers try to support each other's events by promoting them to our students. But none of us have ever used the resulting e-mail list to invite another teachers' students to an ongoing class that might be a replacement. (although a student who met you through an event might contact *you* about a class if she's not happy with her current teacher of course. I don't mean to imply that students can't move between teachers, it's just that it's customary in my area for the student to initiate that action. There's an obligation of courtesy when we're sharing our student base with our competitors)

I realize you can see the situation another way (you notified them, they chose to come, you may not acknowledge an obligation to handle that e-mail list with kid gloves).

Either way, I'd go gently with implying that the other teacher has 'driven them away' in some way with her focus on performing. We can't please everyone all the time, and if she's teaching full time she must be making a lot of students happy with the way she handles things. It's nice for the less performance-oriented students to have an alternative available, but that doesn't mean she's doing anything wrong.

Thanks for the advice, ladies. I fear it may be seen that way. The email list they all asked to be on it and I do openly notify people it also includes events from others as well as my classes.

A few of them have honestly tried breaking through, but she runs her classes as a dance company ("artistic director" has the final say type). Should I make them make one final attempt to "break through" to her?

FYI she is also on my mailing list :)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

..
Either way, I'd go gently with implying that the other teacher has 'driven them away' in some way with her focus on performing. We can't please everyone all the time, and if she's teaching full time she must be making a lot of students happy with the way she handles things. It's nice for the less performance-oriented students to have an alternative available, but that doesn't mean she's doing anything wrong.

I completely agree with this. People come to the dance for different reasons. Some people want fun and frolic, some people want history and work (but no pressure of shows), some people really want to get out there in front of people. You both serve different needs.

I can see what an awkward situation this must be, but I really can't see emailing the other teacher's students as a breach of faith. It's not like you stood outside her classroom asking for email addresses as her students walked out. Over time, I've signed up at all kinds of events and by now, I'm pretty much on every local teacher's email list, and I get emails notifiying me of everyone's class sessions. If I decide to switch from class A to class B, it would seem crazy to me for teacher of class A to be angry that I knew about it from an email.

Originally Posted by Zamira

I can see what an awkward situation this must be, but I really can't see emailing the other teacher's students as a breach of faith. It's not like you stood outside her classroom asking for email addresses as her students walked out. Over time, I've signed up at all kinds of events and by now, I'm pretty much on every local teacher's email list, and I get emails notifiying me of everyone's class sessions. If I decide to switch from class A to class B, it would seem crazy to me for teacher of class A to be angry that I knew about it from an email.

I figured it was probably a regional thing. If the other teacher has also e-mailed your students about her weekly classes, you're totally off the hook! Maybe check with some of your students and see if they get those kinds of materials from her?

Originally Posted by amity

That would be easy, however I don't think that would go over well. She has a huge annual show next weekend and I wouldn't want to jepordize and of her thoughts/and relationships with her students. A few of her students have tried too; she just has such a strong personality.

It is SO hard to get THROUGH to someone with a STRONG personality!

Sounds like they've already tried!
If she got upset the first (or second) time, I wouldn't keep trying to get through to her.

Maybe the other teacher will FINALLY get the message?
Not focus on expensive shows, but focus on the dance?
Or, at least start listening to what the students WANT?!

I don't think it's your fault!

I agree with the people who pointed out that your different classes serve different needs, different types of students. If you keep teaching your intermediate class, there will probably be some students who go over to the other teacher at some point because they want a class with more emphasis on performance.

Originally Posted by Zamira

I agree with the people who pointed out that your different classes serve different needs, different types of students. If you keep teaching your intermediate class, there will probably be some students who go over to the other teacher at some point because they want a class with more emphasis on performance.

Good point and I always suggest her for those who want a more structered/choreograph class.. I do teach on performance, but mine is focused more on individual growth and performance. :)

Thanks ladies!

Well my two cents worth, it sounds like these gals signed up on your e-mail list because they wanted access to announcments, including classes, that you put out on it and they are interested in your class, not that you went "courting" her students per say.
You sound worried that she might take their intrest and leaving her class the wrong way, so you might approach her and let her know that several of her students who had signed up on your e-mail list have expressed an intrest in a class of yours that was mentioned on a recent e-mail and you were worried she might view it as you trying to poach her students so to speak and you wanted to make sure she knew that wasn't the case and wasn't taking it the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Zamira

I can see what an awkward situation this must be, but I really can't see emailing the other teacher's students as a breach of faith. It's not like you stood outside her classroom asking for email addresses as her students walked out. Over time, I've signed up at all kinds of events and by now, I'm pretty much on every local teacher's email list, and I get emails notifiying me of everyone's class sessions. If I decide to switch from class A to class B, it would seem crazy to me for teacher of class A to be angry that I knew about it from an email.

I agree. Students are free agents. If they decide to leave their current teacher and take a class with you, it is the students' jobs to discuss it with her (or not).

There are very few choices for teachers in our part of the world. I have been affiliated with my teacher for the last 12 years - in this small bellydance community this fact is well known. I receive emails about classes, etc., from not only my teacher, but the teacher you are speaking of, you, and one other on occasion. I wouldn't worry about it - as because of the small community there is alot of overlap - people can see what is available and pick and choose. I should also say that I like seeing what is available in the area and appreciate the emails from everyone. Variety is the spice of life they say.

I read flyers from three grocery stores before I decide where I am going to shop each week. Why should dance be treated any differently?

Originally Posted by Surida

There are very few choices for teachers in our part of the world. I have been affiliated with my teacher for the last 12 years - in this small bellydance community this fact is well known. I receive emails about classes, etc., from not only my teacher, but the teacher you are speaking of, you, and one other on occasion. I wouldn't worry about it - as because of the small community there is alot of overlap - people can see what is available and pick and choose.

Yay! As long as you were following local protocol, then in my opinion you're completely off the hook and I agree that it's the students' job to choose whether they want to discuss their switch with the teacher.

I read flyers from three grocery stores before I decide where I am going to shop each week. Why should dance be treated any differently?

But grocery stores don't set out flyers for each other's sales, and they don't share their mailing lists. Each store has to build/buy its own list.

Sounds like in the dance community in question, sharing lists this way is the norm, so that's OK.

In my area, it is viewed differently because the only reason I would ever HAVE the e-mail addresses of another teachers' students is because she promoted my events to them. That other teacher spent a lot of money and time on promotion to *find* that student in the first place and worked very hard to keep that student interested and 'grow' them to the point where they might be interested in a workshop.

There are communities where teachers don't share info about each other's events with their students, invite other troupes to their haflas, etc. because they've had bad experiences. Fragmented communities can't bring in big teachers, support great workshops or shows. The students suffer.

In the best of worlds, we are cooperative competitors who work together to synergistically build a thriving dance community and everyone benefits. But being cooperative competitors requires a lot of careful egg-walking on everyone's part or it all crashes to the ground.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

But being cooperative competitors requires a lot of careful egg-walking on everyone's part or it all crashes to the ground.

I agree that we are all competitors, but I hate that it can't be friendly. Everyone here offers a different style, so if one studio doesn't flip your skirt you should try another. I guess I would rather see someone enjoy the dance than go to my class and hate it or not go entirely because they didn't know about anyone else. Unfortunately, there have been less than ethical operations in the past and I think everyone is a little edgy about it.

I'm all for sharing students until a troupe level is reached. If you want to join a formal troupe then you have to make a decision. Drop ins or privates with another instructor are fine, but I don't think it's right to be a part of more than one professional performing troupe. That said, I don't think it's right to go to someone else's event with the intent of prospecting for students. Unless I'm asked, I don't introduce myself as owner of X studio. I just give my name. I'm there to enjoy dancing not to poach.

I realize the above isn't really what the OP was referring to, and we don't normally promote someone else's regular classes here in the Lou. It sounds to me like the other owner has her definition of how things should be run and there isn't any changing it. Frankly, I'm not sure you can win at all here. She might have seen you as a student thief even without the e-mail. The mere fact that you offered an additional class level might have been threatening to her. I wish you the best of luck, and hope it doesn't get ugly (especially since you didn't mean it as a full frontal assault).

Originally Posted by Andrea2

I agree that we are all competitors, but I hate that it can't be friendly.

There are lots of us who DO manage to be friendly, though. At least most of the time. We all have strong opinions, and we may ruffle each other's feathers from time to time, but... look how many different teachers were represented at your last hafla!


I totally agree with you though, for both business and personal reasons. We're competitors but in order to pull off great haflas or workshops, we *have* to work together. But it's more than that -- because this isn't just business to any of us. We're all totally passionate about the dance, we all love it. Where else can I find friends who are really going to 'get' me, in all my weirdness, if not you guys?

I genuinely like most of my so-called competitors. And even though my business is my livelihood, I wouldn't want to sacrifice my friendships for it.

Of course, that's easy for me to say over here in my 'burbs. If a serious studio opened up down the street from me, I can see that it would be MUCH tougher not to feel threatened!

(sorry for the threadjack, this had nothing to do with the OP at all!)

I was really happy with how many studios were represented. I meant that in more of a general tone, though, and not just for our area. I guess in general I wish there could be more of a live and let live philosophy and less of a need to tear down others to build ourselves up. Sorry, Amity, I didn't mean to turn this into Psych 101. And now, back to your regularly scheduled post....

I think that you are fine. It is natural if she has been the only teacher in the area that has an intermediate class that she would have most of the intermediate students. When another class pops up, students may want to test other waters. It sounds as if you are going to provide a different type of experience as well so it makes sense. I know that if I didn't really want to perform but the only class in town involved performing I would go. As soon as there was one that didn't require it, I would switch. Not so much based on the teaching skill of the teacher but more for the format of the class.

I am signed up for a lot of lists and get a ton of class type announcements. I don't consider these teachers as trying to poach me.

You may (after her show) let her know that there are a few of her students interested in taking your new class tho. Just to be nice. I guess.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

But grocery stores don't set out flyers for each other's sales, and they don't share their mailing lists. Each store has to build/buy its own list.

In my area, it is viewed differently because the only reason I would ever HAVE the e-mail addresses of another teachers' students is because she promoted my events to them.

It doesn't sound to me like Amity and Surida are talking about teachers sharing their mailing lists. I wonder if anyone in the dance community does that -- it would be a breach of privacy at the very least to share the addresses on your list with another teacher without the express permission of each of your list members.

On the other hand, when you attend a workshop around here there is usually a sign-up sheet laying on the registration table in case you want to join the sponsor's mailing list. In this situation, I understand the argument that another teacher's students would never have had the opportunity to join the sponsor's list if the other teacher hadn't promoted the event to them, but, unless the sponsor is requiring all the workshop attendees to sign up for her list, I don't see how this could be construed as poaching. The individuals concerned are joining on their own initiative.

Is this the type of practice that's frowned on in the St. Louis area?

Originally Posted by Ainsley

Is this the type of practice that's frowned on in the St. Louis area?

It's definitely not customary here. And yes, I think it would be frowned upon. I feel certain that if the other teachers used their classes to promote my workshop to their students, and I used that workshop to gather e-mails to promote MY regular classes to their students, they would be outraged and they'd stop sharing my info with their students. That may not be right or logical, but I believe it's true.

Our community has some issues, some of which go back decades. We're all struggling to get along and work together at the moment, but it's a delicate balance -- and like I said, we walk on eggshells to make it happen. Right now it's (sort of) working. Yay.

I don't think we're unique in this regard, unfortunately.

I don't really think you would need to call her.
Have you considered that some of your beginners along the way have switched to her because they want what she privides? Maybe so, and if so did she call to let you know?
Students come, go, some times come back if they wish. just do your thing, let her do hers and it will be fine.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I feel certain that if the other teachers used their classes to promote my workshop to their students, and I used that workshop to gather e-mails to promote MY regular classes to their students, they would be outraged and they'd stop sharing my info with their students.

I would never use info gathered for my festival to announce classes unless someone specifically asked to be informed of same. Instead, I use this info to announce other events I produce.

Deborah