Thread: Warmup trends

I was thinking the other day about how much things like warm up techniques have changed over the years (not only in dance but in other exercise forms as well *shudders at memories of school P.E.*)

Obviously much of this derives from our greater knowledge and awareness of good practice, potential dangers and also of what people with limited movement can achieve.

Apart from the obvious changes (no one does that scary, rotary neck exercise any more thank goodness) there is much less getting down on the floor to warm up/cool down when I started (presumably because its possible to get the same stretches without being down of the ground and also because many students with restricted movement struggle with getting down/getting up from the floor).

Other things I've noticed:
1) there is now a greater trend for doing the entire warm up to music, which wasn't the case a few years back.
2)There seem to be fewer torso twisting exercises (I'm thinking of the ultra gentle kind, nothing severe), but one of my previous teachers always used to incorporate a few and I haven't seen them done for about 4 years now.
3) Less partner work.

I was wondering if all of these changes are to do with health and safety (excuse my woeful ignorance) or whether some of it is a fashion/trends thing.

What other trends have people noticed? What sort of safe practices have become more widespread in recent years?

Well, the main thing I'm aware of is that nobody uses stretching as a warmup unless they're people who do yoga, and that is definitely a health and safety thing.

The other safe practice I'm aware of is no locked knees, lifted pelvis, no touching toes, no bouncing in a stretch...

A lot of exercise theory has been making its way into bellydance classes, according to what I read on Bhuz.

Which is good in a way, BUT since that theory comes from sports research, I'm not certain it's always relevant to dance (there's not a lot of funding for dance research, so we're left to our own devices there.)

For instance:
1) Modern theory says you should warm up by walking etc. for 5-10 minutes before exercising, to prevent injury. That's 100% true if you're about to run up and down a football field and risk a heart attack!! Might be useful for some Saiidi choreographies. But to stand in place and shimmy, which barely makes most of us breathe hard, it's a waste of time.

2) Modern theory says you don't warm up with stretches, that can actually *increase* your risk of injury. Again, might be very true if you're about to run as fast as you can for an hour and get tackled by a 280 pound man. But part of the point in dance is to increase the range of motion, and lots of my dancers would have an easier time, say, keeping an open chest during class if they'd just had a gentle stretch.

It *is* better not to stretch cold muscles. In yoga, we do sun salutations to warm up before we get into any real stretching.

A little technique-based movement followed by some gentle stretches might make a good beginning for a bellydance class.

that's the main difference for me too: no more stretching. where i was taught myself there quite a bit of stretching and very very mild warm up. when i started teaching myself, that's what i did first of all as well, .. but then with taking workshops from american instructors, and through researching, reading books about warmups for sport etc, i switched to a more energetic warm up...

Definitely one of my pet peeves. While I do go to the gym daily, I don't want an entire gym routine carrying over into my dance class in the form of a warm up that lasts 30 minutes. What is with this trend? I've had two teachers so far who do such difficult warm ups that by the time it's over many students are pooped! I think its also off-putting to many women. For example, my 69 year old mother who attends a weekly bellydance class would certainly stop going if she were forced to do 30 minutes of ab crunches, squats, legs lifts and so on. I've also seen that some (older) women do not return after a week or two and I wonder if this might be the reason.
Lauren, I had to chuckle when you mentioned warm ups pre-Saidi. We do Saidi AS warm up! ,m::

Regards
Priscilla

my warm ups are between 10 and 30 minutes. BUT, when it's the long version its not 30 minutes of gymnastics/running/gym stuff, that part is max 5 minutes, i sneak in a lot of technique exercises and drills... it depends... also on what the rest of the class will consist of. for example when we are doing a choreography, i will tend to put more technique in the warm up, so as the class at least had an aspect of that, or in beginners, a lot of warm ups will have elements that prepare the new technique they will work on that day, etc...

Originally Posted by jessedan

Definitely one of my pet peeves. While I do go to the gym daily, I don't want an entire gym routine carrying over into my dance class in the form of a warm up that lasts 30 minutes. What is with this trend? I've had two teachers so far who do such difficult warm ups that by the time it's over many students are pooped! I think its also off-putting to many women. For example, my 69 year old mother who attends a weekly bellydance class would certainly stop going if she were forced to do 30 minutes of ab crunches, squats, legs lifts and so on. I've also seen that some (older) women do not return after a week or two and I wonder if this might be the reason.
Lauren, I had to chuckle when you mentioned warm ups pre-Saidi. We do Saidi AS warm up! ,m::

Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by jessedan

I've also seen that some (older) women do not return after a week or two and I wonder if this might be the reason.

That is so sad but really possible. Some teachers don't want to teach anyone who isn't strong/talented/young because see their students' dance ability as a reflection of their teaching skills and want to discourage students who won't reflect well on them.

It is challenging to have women in class who aren't really strong enough/supple enough/physically able to do the movements we're teaching. Keeping those students safe while getting through the lesson plan is a tradeoff. And in higher level classes, worrying about injuries for those students can hold the entire class back. It's a tough line to walk sometimes between being inclusive and being able to push the more capable students.

I think some teachers do tough warmups to exclude people (THIS'LL show them what it really takes to be a bellydancer heh heh) and others do it to try to help the students get to the level of physical strength and ability needed to master the movements.

Stretching cold muscles definitely increases your chances of injury during the actual dance class - up to 20%! NOT worth it. Starting with slow movement and increasing the intensity over a short period of time is better. Save the heavy duty stretching for AFTER class, when it does the most good.

But a dangerous (IMO) trend right now is doing yoga before class as the warm up. Yoga done correctly is GREAT, don't get me wrong. But I sincerely believe that a newbie yogini (and by newbie, I mean anyone who hasn't been taking yoga for at least 5 years and has some sort of certification) shouldn't be "teaching" yoga. It's dangerous and could cause students physical harm - and could cause the teacher to get sued. Teaching bellydance "wrong" means the student just has to have the time and patience to correct it. Teaching yoga "wrong," on the other hand, could mean physical impairment and long-term pain for a student. A lot of new, young teachers take a few months of yoga and get it into their heads that everyone MUST take yoga and so make it a requirement in their classes. RIDICULOUS!

Even the "famous" BDers who did intense yoga (30-60 minutes) as the warm-up for workshops just a couple of years ago aren't doing that anymore. I think Mira Betz said it best at a recent workshop, "You paid to take a dance class, NOT a yoga class. So that's what I'm going to teach - DANCE!" Thank you! If I want to learn yoga, I'll take a yoga class with a qualified instructor. But I'm taking a bellydance class, so that's what I want to learn from you.

i agree with this. i've been using yoga dvds for my own warm up and cool downs at home, and i feel the temptation to use it in class, but i dont. I know my own body well enough to set my own limits and adapt positions to my body. but i dont know enough about yoga to do the same for others.

one of the biggest challenges for a dance teacher according to me is learning to see what people do wrong why and where. and to learn to correct that. not just to break down and explain technique, but to see where and what people dont grasp, and when or if it needs adapting to their bodies. it might mean a weight shift, a tuck, less of a lift or a bend here and there, are their toes on the floor etc etc etc. sometimes students make mistakes that really are 'whooha what the hell is she doing', and i need to look carefully and really understand the move, to understand where something is going wrong.

it has taken me years and years to do that in bellydancing, i could not possible do it with yoga poses that i have not even grasped properly myself.

i dont agree with that though. teaching bellydancing wrong can lead to injury too!

"Teaching bellydance "wrong" means the student just has to have the time and patience to correct it"

The concept of not stretching cold muscles refers to passive stretches. For example, stretching a hamstring on the floor in a modified hurdler's stretch in which there is no weight born on the ham.

The confusing part, IMO, is that there are alot of movements that are not passive stretches, but that get called "stretches", that are perfectly fine to do as a warmup. I see alot of knee-jerk "OMG that's a *stretch* and you are doing it first!" For example, trying to lift your arms above your head in a "stretch" as though you are trying to touch the ceiling is an active stretch, not a passive stretch, and I can think of no reason why this can't be done without a warmup.

The confusing part, IMO, is that there are alot of movements that are not passive stretches, but that get called "stretches", that are perfectly fine to do as a warmup. I see alot of knee-jerk "OMG that's a *stretch* and you are doing it first!" For example, trying to lift your arms above your head in a "stretch" as though you are trying to touch the ceiling is an active stretch, not a passive stretch, and I can think of no reason why this can't be done without a warmup

Yes. This puzzles me too. I totally see why cold passive stretches are not the way forward but surely some warmup activities involve a teeny tiny bit of stretching of some kind, even if it is secondary to the primary focus of the warmup.

Surely it is impossible to completely cut out anything and everything that might fall into the category of a stretch?

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

But a dangerous (IMO) trend right now is doing yoga before class as the warm up. Yoga done correctly is GREAT, don't get me wrong. But I sincerely believe that a newbie yogini (and by newbie, I mean anyone who hasn't been taking yoga for at least 5 years and has some sort of certification) shouldn't be "teaching" yoga. It's dangerous and could cause students physical harm

I agree with this. As a belly dance teacher, I *might* use yoga tree pose in a warmup as a tool for teaching students centering, but my typical warmup involves active motion - walking in time to a drum rhythm so people can learn what Middle Eastern rhythms sound like, doing loose, not-too-fast hip bumps / lifts / drops, etc.

When I attend workshops, I don't want to do yoga. I'm there to dance.

I prefer to do yoga with an instructor whose yoga certification status is known to me, whose yoga teaching experience is sufficient to earn my trust that she won't injure me, whose class has fewer than 20 people so she can see what we're doing and correct us if we need it.

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

Teaching bellydance "wrong" means the student just has to have the time and patience to correct it.

I have to disagree with this. A bad belly dance teacher can cause knee pain in her students (by teaching them to use "pushing with the foot/knee" to move the hip around in figure 8's), neck pain and stroke (by teaching hair tosses without emphasizing proper form), back pain (failing to correct swayback posture, which in turn leads to sciatic nerve problems), etc. I know of one student who almost gave up on belly dancing because she always had severe knee pain after attending her beginner classes. But she dropped out of those classes and started taking elsewhere, and stayed with the dance after that.

1) I'm a certified yoga teacher, and I don't use yoga in my dance classes.

2) I think there's a vast difference between 'stretching out' and 'performing intense stretches.' Intense stretching should be left to those with serious training.

Simple stretches, though, are an ordinary activity, not an intense one. Many people (and animals) stretch on first waking in the morning, for instance, with no warmup at all! Or get out of the car on a roadtrip and stretch, or stretch as a break from sitting at their desks. I don't believe these people are risking injury.

I think reaching the arms overhead, or lacing the fingers behind the back and drawing the shoulders back, etc. is just fine after a little technique-based movement.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

As a belly dance teacher, I *might* use yoga tree pose in a warmup as a tool for teaching students centering,

As a yoga teacher, I would *never* use yoga tree pose in a bellydance class because I see it as something that takes hours of practice to do well and not a good use of dance class time.

My idea of cursory instruction for tree pose for beginners would be a minimum of 10 minutes to cover the use of drishti point, distribution of weight over the surface of the foot, safe placement of the lifted let for a variety of levels of ability (including making certain no one is putting pressure on the inside knee of the standing leg, that's a HUGE no-no), proper alignment of the hips, opening of the chest, keeping the shoulders down.

I'd rather see people just stand on one foot.

(but then, I see improving balance as only one benefit of tree pose. Yoga in general, and balance specifically, is all about turning the mind inward, holding awareness in the body, silencing the chatter of the mind, unifying the body/mind/spirit, and preparing the entire self for meditation.... see, I may take it too seriously. ..l;,)

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

Stretching cold muscles definitely increases your chances of injury during the actual dance class - up to 20%!

Agreed -- I think it's best to do some technique-based movement first, then stretch *gently* -- but beware of statistics. Where does this one come from? What kind of dance classes was the study performed on? Was it bellydance, jazz, tap, modern? What kinds of activities were performed in the dance class? Pointe work? Leaps? Floor work? Somersaults? What kind of stretches were performed -- mild, moderate, intense? What kind of training did the instructors have?

In other words, do we know whether this statistic might correlate to anything that would happen in a bellydance class? If so, then we should break apart what aspect of the stretching caused what kinds of injuries and incorporate that research.

As someone who has seen lots of videos both belly dance and other, I'll give my opinion.

Yoga: While it's great for some, I'd rather learn yoga in a small class that I chose to go to than go to a dance class and it's expected as a warm up. I tried it once or twice at home and could immediately tell that I wasn't doing it correctly. If you start getting achys 5 minutes into it...you're doing it wrong! And if someone is teaching it who's not a yoga instructor, it's not guarunteed that they know how to do it correctly and safely.

I prefer a warm-up to be a slow build up to get your heart rate going. There are a couple of stretches that I have to do. I have to stretch(I don't know the correct terms for muscles and so on) the side of my torso by extending my hand over my head and leaning into it. If I don't, I notice that I'm not as lifted. I also gently stretch my pelvis region from side to side. I find it's harder to stay tucked(a big problem I have) and it's not as loose to do other moves. And I have to stretch out my arms or they tend to tense up.

I found something really interesting this past weekend. Zoe had an intensive warm-up section and I was dying by the end of it. But, by the end of the 5 hour workshop, my muscles were sore, but nothing was in pain. It's rare that I have that happen. Normally, if I dance for a long period of time, my lower back kills me(do to that un-tucked pelvis thing). I never realized the effect of a untucked pelvis until then. Sure, it's drilled into your head, but I'm guessing that others that complain of lower back pain are doing the same thing I'm doing. Focusing too much on the drills and not enough on body alignment.

We do a 20-25 min warm-up in my classes. As you advance to the next higher level the difficulty increases.

Level one is designed to strengthen, tone and develop body awareness.

level two builds upon level one with increased difficulty.

Level three we start training to develop dancer bodies and increase stamina. Your going to sweat and be sore the next day at this level....

As for my program being to athletic for older women, my program probably is. There is no crime about that, but I started when I was fourty three, over weight 226 lbs and could not do one simple push-up.

Now, I'm fourty seven, can pump out 30 military style push-ups. Have gone from 226 lbs to 160 lbs. I am able to do the splits on my left side, right is getting close and I could never do them when I was a teen ager or a ballet dancer.

To discourage those that don't want to work hard I use the following statement.

Preparations for these classes require 20-30 Min's of cardio 3 -4 times a week.

I had one lady who wanted to take my classes in her mid 60's who I knew would be unable to do the movements and warm-ups and when she saw my statement did not sign-up for class. I am okay with that.

I use the same program that benefited me as a dancer with some changes of my own.

What is great about this dance is that you can find an instructor that meets your needs and we don't have to cater to the same clientele. I desire not to be a fluffy instructor, I train people to become dancers, and it means hard work.....

Maybe this is just me, but I make a distinction between a warm-up and strengthening, toning, drills, etc. To me, a warm-up is literally that, and is designed to prepare the body to work on those things by getting the blood pumping, the muscles supple and the lungs ready to work. If I go to a class that includes strengthening and toning, I think that's excellent, but I consider that separate from a warm up, even if the two are meshed together.

Me too. I think warm ups should be just that. Warm ups. I go to the gym every day and train anywhere from one and a half to two hours depending on the day and the routine. This includes cardio and weight training. However, I only want this kind of training from a personal trainer not from a bellydance instructor. Perhaps the teacher could strongly suggest to her dance students that they make an effort to excercise regularly at home or at the gym in order to be better prepared physically for the class. But I really doubt that one 30 minute session of strength training once a week at a dance class is going to achieve much.

Regards
Priscilla

Originally Posted by rachelw

Maybe this is just me, but I make a distinction between a warm-up and strengthening, toning, drills, etc. To me, a warm-up is literally that, and is designed to prepare the body to work on those things by getting the blood pumping, the muscles supple and the lungs ready to work. If I go to a class that includes strengthening and toning, I think that's excellent, but I consider that separate from a warm up, even if the two are meshed together.

Originally Posted by jessedan

Me too. I think warm ups should be just that. Warm ups. I go to the gym every day and train anywhere from one and a half to two hours depending on the day and the routine. This includes cardio and weight training. However, I only want this kind of training from a personal trainer not from a bellydance instructor. Perhaps the teacher could strongly suggest to her dance students that they make an effort to excercise regularly at home or at the gym in order to be better prepared physically for the class. But I really doubt that one 30 minute session of strength training once a week at a dance class is going to achieve much.

Regards
Priscilla

Actually I find that students that attend this type of class are the one's that do practice at home, attend more than one class a week and have other fitness regimens in their life. They see the class as challenging and that is what they are looking for.

As for my qualifications, I am a fitness Instructor. Received my training from the United States Navy as a Drill Instructor. When you have a thousand recruits that your responsible for injury prevention is at the top of our list...

I teach my newest baby dancers how to warm up. Then I explain to them that they need to come to class early enough to warm up before class starts. I figure they are paying me to teach them to dance, and I want to spend the entire class on dance. Each class comes early and warms up unobtrusively around the edges or in the hallway, and cools down afterwards as well on their own time. YMMV.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

. . . part of the point in dance is to increase the range of motion, and lots of my dancers would have an easier time, say, keeping an open chest during class if they'd just had a gentle stretch.

It *is* better not to stretch cold muscles. In yoga, we do sun salutations to warm up before we get into any real stretching.

A little technique-based movement followed by some gentle stretches might make a good beginning for a bellydance class.

This is how I conduct warm-ups in my classes. I am interested in range of motion as opposed to active stretching, so it's mostly dance movement based, with a few other things thrown in. I insist on proper dance posture even while sitting; you know the drill: belly gently engaged, bottom aligned, chest gently lifted, shoulders back and down, chin lifted . . .

We are actually seated for part of it, so that it's easier for beginners to do gentle rib slides and circles and just generally isolate the upper body. I sit on a chair, as do most of the students, but floor-sitters are most welcome. This part is about 10 minutes long.

Next, we do some BD traveling steps to warm up the larger muscle groups in the lower body -- nothing spectacular, just what I call a "dance walk," a cha-cha step, and the chasse. This is actually part of the class, but it has the same effect as continuing a similar warm-up.

From there, we move directly into dance and have a wonderful time.

I, too, don't understand dance classes that include gym-type *exercise* assuming, of course, that it's not a BD for Fitness-type class. I discuss cross training and its benefits, but we don't do it in class.

Deborah

Originally Posted by jessedan

Definitely one of my pet peeves. While I do go to the gym daily, I don't want an entire gym routine carrying over into my dance class in the form of a warm up that lasts 30 minutes. What is with this trend?

If you only have an hour class and 30 minutes is warm up, then that is just silly. This is a peeve of mine as well.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

1)
Simple stretches, though, are an ordinary activity, not an intense one. Many people (and animals) stretch on first waking in the morning, for instance, with no warmup at all! Or get out of the car on a roadtrip and stretch, or stretch as a break from sitting at their desks. I don't believe these people are risking injury.

Lauren, I totally agree. Everything you mentioned is what I would call an active stretch, which can be done just fine without warmups.

When my cats "stretch" their front legs out in front of them the muscle stretching is doing the work. I've never seen a cat or other animal do a passive stretch.

We really need to define which "stretches" if we are going to talk about how bad stretching cold muscles is. I do lots of "stretches" AS a warmup! However, I don't do passive stretches on cold muscles. Big difference.

Here is another example of active vs. passive stretches:

If you stand on one leg, and flex the ankle of the other leg, you are performing an active stretch of the calf muscles. It is totally fine to do this as a warmup. I mean, you can really just go to town with it if you want to and it is not going to be injurious. During this movement, muscles are only being "stretched" by their oppositional muscles. However, if you sit on the ground and use a towel to pull the foot forward, that is a passive stretch and should be done on warmed up muscles. If you use gravity, your weight, or another limb to stretch an unengaged muscle, it is a passive stretch, and those are the ones that shouldn't be done on cold muscles.

Originally Posted by jessedan

Me too. I think warm ups should be just that. Warm ups. I go to the gym every day and train anywhere from one and a half to two hours depending on the day and the routine. This includes cardio and weight training. However, I only want this kind of training from a personal trainer not from a bellydance instructor. Perhaps the teacher could strongly suggest to her dance students that they make an effort to excercise regularly at home or at the gym in order to be better prepared physically for the class. But I really doubt that one 30 minute session of strength training once a week at a dance class is going to achieve much.

Regards
Priscilla

I agree with this completely ... I already have a strong fitness routine that I am very happy with - that's not what I take bellydance classes for ... I take belldance to learn how to dance ... a basic warm up to 'warm the body up' and maybe some light range of motion excercises to prepare / work into what we are working on that day is plenty. spending half the class on extended warm up / conditioning sessions would irritate me ... what little strength training, etc we could fit into that classtime would be pretty much a waste of time to me that I could be learning / practicing / being critiqued on dance. ... that said, my teacher offers separate classes that are bellydance fitness classes where they do that sort of thing for those who want to get everything together and they are clearly marked that way - that's cool - I think options for different people are always nice as different people have different goals.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Lauren, I totally agree. Everything you mentioned is what I would call an active stretch, which can be done just fine without warmups.

When my cats "stretch" their front legs out in front of them the muscle stretching is doing the work. I've never seen a cat or other animal do a passive stretch.

We really need to define which "stretches" if we are going to talk about how bad stretching cold muscles is. I do lots of "stretches" AS a warmup! However, I don't do passive stretches on cold muscles. Big difference.

Here is another example of active vs. passive stretches:

If you stand on one leg, and flex the ankle of the other leg, you are performing an active stretch of the calf muscles. It is totally fine to do this as a warmup. I mean, you can really just go to town with it if you want to and it is not going to be injurious. During this movement, muscles are only being "stretched" by their oppositional muscles. However, if you sit on the ground and use a towel to pull the foot forward, that is a passive stretch and should be done on warmed up muscles. If you use gravity, your weight, or another limb to stretch an unengaged muscle, it is a passive stretch, and those are the ones that shouldn't be done on cold muscles.

... that is basically what I was taught about stretching as well

Originally Posted by mish_mish

If you only have an hour class and 30 minutes is warm up, then that is just silly. This is a peeve of mine as well.

I agree and it is a pet peeve of mine also. That is why my class is an hour and half long.....

I had one instructor, very short lived instructor who incorporated the warm up with the entire hour of class. Yes she taught technique but it took us for ever to get to it. we ended up with only like fifteen minutes of actual dance training.

I mainly do mobilization movements as a dance warmup, to increase lubrication of the joints and improve my range of movement. I find that dancing in itself is usually all the warmup I need, as long as I don't launch into doing something too strenuous at the beginning.
I have noticed a lot of fitness 'wisdom' about contra-indicated moves, safe stretching and warming up is gradually filtering down into (most!) dance classes.