Thread: Quick Poll: what do you call these two moves?

So, I'm introducing a new move in my beginner class tonight, and I'm having trouble deciding what to call it, because all of the terms I've ever heard for it are misleading or also used for a different move.

I always try to tell my students what other names I've heard for any given move when I introduce it, but I try to be consistent in class. I'd rather not pick a name that will confuse them later when they work with videos or study with someone else.


The move is what I think of as a triple bump: weight goes onto the right foot while bumping RLR (pause), then weight goes onto the left foot while bumping LRL (pause). We will be doing it slowly at first, and then take it to shimmy speed in a later session.

I've always thought of this move as "bump-2-3", and for the slow speed, that name or "triple bump" makes sense.

I've heard a lot of people call that move a "3/4 shimmy" when done at full speed. I don't object to that name per se, since it fits the rhythm of the moves (3 hits and a pause filling four beats).

However, I learned a different move as a "3/4 shimmy": hip bump (or slide, depending on who you ask) to the right, the left hip lifts and drops, and then a hip bump/slide to the left, and the right hip lifts and drops.

I have also heard people call the triple bump shimmy a triplet shimmy, but that's musically incorrect. I did learn an actual triplet shimmy, which goes RLRLRL, instead of RLR(pause)LRL(pause) like the move I'm teaching tonight.


So what I'd like to know (from as many people as possible) is: what do you call these two moves:

1) a shimmy made of hip bumps that go RLR(pause)LRL(pause)
(i.e., this one)

2) a shimmy made of a hip bump/slide R and a lift-drop of the left hip, then a hip bump/slide L and a lift-drop of the right hip
(i.e., this one)

Thanks!

I never learned a name for the first one, and the second one I learned in England and it was called an Egyptian Walk. :)

Hi, Nadira!

I learned that as a 3/4 shimmy and later learned the slide-up-down version, which I'm told is the 'real' 3/4 shimmy. So I've taught it as the 'double bump' shimmy or as the 'double bump version of the 3/4 shimmy' since I usually teach the two versions together.

(I think of it as double rather than triple, since the hip bumps up or out two times for each weight shift).

YMMV of course, but that's been my solution.

my teacher would call both of those a 3/4 shimmy, with qualifiers like out-and-out, down-up-down, etc... we sorta decided on the qualifiers in class based on what made sense to us.

If you are talking about the RLR on the same hip, then switching hips, then I learned and teach both of those as variations of a 3/4 shimmy.

te-ka-tek (R)
te-ka-tek (L)

Or, are you talking about weight on the R, then R hip, L hip, R hip, switch weight oto the L foot, then L hip, R hip, L hip?

1: 3/4 shimmy and if you are walking - Arabic walk with 3/4 shimmy

2: Not sure of the name, but I think of it as more of a hipslide with hiplift

I learned the first one as 3/4 shimmy and the second as a variation with no specific name.

I have never see the pronounced pause on the 2 beat like the one in that first clip.

I am wondering if the major difference could be this....where is your body awareness on the move...the weighted hip, or the unweighted hip? Does that factor into how you answer?

I learned them both as 3/4 shimmy variations. The one with the lift as just the shimmy and the bump one as a variation (3/4 shimmy bump)

I can't see the clips but from your descriptions, they're both types of 3/4 shimmy.

ETA: "bump" is a term I never heard till I went online, though I think tribal dancers use it. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean - I would probably describe it as a hip rock with weight shift and an accent.

Originally Posted by Vahana

If you are talking about the RLR on the same hip, then switching hips, then I learned and teach both of those as variations of a 3/4 shimmy.

te-ka-tek (R)
te-ka-tek (L)

Or, are you talking about weight on the R, then R hip, L hip, R hip, switch weight oto the L foot, then L hip, R hip, L hip?

Yep, #1 is RLR with weight on the right hip, then LRL with weight on the L hip.

The way I learned it, the weight transition starts on the first of the three bumps.

So over a full set of RLR, LRL, your weight shifts once to the right and then once to the L.

I call this the 3/4 family - if fast then 3/4 shimmy. Then I qualify which member of the family - down/up/down - Egyptian 3/4; up/down/up Turkish 3/4; up/down/out Gendi 3/4 (after a local dancer who used this as her default 3/4); twist/twist/twist Tunisan 3/4; pelvic lift/drop/lift - Algerian 3/4.

My defaults all assume the forward leg is weighted. There is also an unweighted series.

There are also changes with posture so a Haggalla 3/4 is an Egyptian with more butt etc.

Ok...given that the pelvis is joined into one unit at the crotch...tell me if the body focus isnt the major difference? Are you aware of the weighted or unweighted part of your pelvis as you do this step? Humor me?!

For #1, my very first belly dance teachers called it a "double hip push". They didn't do it at full shimmy speed, though. It was still at hip bump speed.

What Shira said....I've also heard it called a folk or Ghawazee shimmy/bump.

I've always called the twist walk "Egyptians".

Originally Posted by anala

Ok...given that the pelvis is joined into one unit at the crotch...tell me if the body focus isnt the major difference? Are you aware of the weighted or unweighted part of your pelvis as you do this step? Humor me?!

The difference *in the way I learned it* (I'm sure there are lots of ways to do it, and I'm not going to open the "what is the correct way" can of worms) is this:

#1 is a set of three outward hip bumps on each side:

As the weight goes to the right, you do a hip bump to the right (an outward movement, like bumping your car door closed, not an upward/rotating movement, like a steering wheel), followed by a small hip bump to the left (with the whole of the hips still centered over the right leg), and then another bump to the right.

As the weight goes to the left, you do a hip bump to the left, followed by a small hip bump to the right (with the whole of the hips still centered over the left leg), and then another bump to the left.


In #2, there's an outward movement of the whole hip unit, and the hip of the non weighted foot lifts and then drops.

As the weight goes to the right, you do a hip bump or hip slide to the right. (Most teachers describe it as a slide at first, but when it gets up to speed, tend to do it as an accented bump, rather than a smooth slide.) From that position (hips centered over the right leg), the left hip contracts upward into the torso, and then drops back to the neutral position.

As the weight goes to the left, you do a hip bump or hip slide to the left. From that position (hips centered over the left leg), the right hip contracts upward into the torso, and then drops back to the neutral position.


So both versions have an overall side-to-side shifting motion (of the entire pelvis and the weight), but in #1 the 3 strikes are horizontal, while in #2, it's a horizontal strike, followed by an upward one and a downward one.


Does that make more sense?


Again, I'm not looking to start a discussion on what's the correct way to do any of these moves. I just want to know what the most common names for them are!

Yes, it does, it was just a pick it apart moment on my part... hmmmm...I wonder if the dancers focus is the difference (weighted side of the body vs unweighted side of the body) that was giving rise to different names for the same moves...

Interestingly, I am so keen on defaulting to my weighted leg for *everything* these days that it's probably no wonder that my favourite, default 3/4 is a down/up/down with a twist, all the conscious work happening on the hip on the weighted leg. When it really speeds up though I don't really notice that so much, just the brrrrr through my, ahem, soft tissue (as Cassandra calls it). I can make it softer or chunkier depending how much I concentrate on that particular hip.

#1 is a set of three outward hip bumps on each side:

As the weight goes to the right, you do a hip bump to the right (an outward movement, like bumping your car door closed, not an upward/rotating movement, like a steering wheel), followed by a small hip bump to the left (with the whole of the hips still centered over the right leg), and then another bump to the right.

As the weight goes to the left, you do a hip bump to the left, followed by a small hip bump to the right (with the whole of the hips still centered over the left leg), and then another bump to the left.

Tricky!

Tell me, when you walk on it does some twisting naturally occur? That would turn it more into what Kashmir describes as the Tunisian shimmy (which for me is a Saidi shimmy - Tunisian shimmy is an evil beast with a vertical rotating circle on one hip, for me), whereas if you are sort of creeping forward or back with the feet side by side, and with no twist, that would be... cool. And kind of ghawazeeish, for me.

poor Nadira...a few of have addressed her question...the rest of us (me) just went all geek on her.

1. side to side 3/4 or a weighted 3/4
2. up 3/4 shimmy or an unweighted 3/4shimmy

1. is what I call 3/4 shimmy (on the up). I was disappointed that the clip did not show this at full speed

2. How odd, but I don't currently teach or perform this movement, although I like it. I would be tempted to call it an unweighted 3/4 shimmy

I'd like to bring up the weight transfer on the "default" 3/4 shimmy. I generally shift all my weight onto the standing leg on the 3rd "beat" of the 3/4 shimmy, so that the feeling is "and-a-ONE, and-a-TWO, and-a-THREE, etc.

HOLY SMOKES, I just had a (for me) revelation! When I did that "Egyptian Walk" slowly it dawned on me that this seems more like the "Basic Egyptian" walk instead of a 3/4 shimmy. Is it always done so slowly? As presented in the clip here, isn't it just a step-lift walk done more internally and lifting the hip straight up rather than twisting the hip forward?

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

So what I'd like to know (from as many people as possible) is: what do you call these two moves:

1) a shimmy made of hip bumps that go RLR(pause)LRL(pause)
(i.e., this one)

2) a shimmy made of a hip bump/slide R and a lift-drop of the left hip, then a hip bump/slide L and a lift-drop of the right hip
(i.e., this one)

Zahra teaches number 1 as a 3/4 shimmy, and the closest thing to number 2 that she teaches is the hagalla in place (but done with more twisted/vertical emphasis). However, Jenna, co-owner of Zahra's studio, teaches number two as the 3/4 shimmy.

I tend to use Zahra's names when teaching basic moves but mention any other names also.

1. 3/4 shimmy on the up

2. Not sure... I can't say that I teach this one exactly. It looks like what I would call a Basic Egyptian although there is more emphasis on the down than I do (probably my tribal training showing). At a fast speed, I could see where it would seem more like a variation on a 3/4 shimmy.

I teach them both as versions of the 3/4 and explain them directionally (up-up-up, up, out-up-down, down-down-down, up-down-out). For shorthand I use 3/4 basic for the consistent direction ones and Ghawazee 1 and 2 for the out-up-down and up-down-out versions.

I'm going to be the grumpy old fart here for a minute.

#1 is what one of my teachers used to call a "3/4 shimmy when you don't feel like doing it properly." She used to RAGE about this -- it infuriated her to see people doing hip "bumps" instead of actually bringing the hip UP and then stretching it DOWN and then bringing it back UP again.

Try it with the bumps and then try it with actually moving the hip up (by pinching at the waist) then stretching it down (a la Sohair Zaki) and the pulling it back up again. To me, this movement looks nothing like the movement demonstrated in clip 1. The "3/4" in clip 1 looks very sloppy to me, but that's just my prejudice.


#2 is what I learned as the Bedouin 3/4, but with a COMPLETELY different accent. The way I learned it was the accent was on the DOWN, and you pause there for a count, and then that same hip goes OUT, then the other hip goes UP. (I realize the Saut Wa Soora show videos aren't 100% accurate, but this is what I've seen when I freeze-framed the "Bedouin" videos they produced.)


What's with the timing on the 3/4 shimmy, by the way? The only one I ever learned that had an obvious pause in it was the Bedouin. All the others were taught like waltz timing -- 123, 223, 323, 423. We never paused on the "4th" count. Even on the Jamila archive series, Suhaila teaches this movement with no pause. When did the pause get added?

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

1. is what I call 3/4 shimmy (on the up). I was disappointed that the clip did not show this at full speed

2. How odd, but I don't currently teach or perform this movement, although I like it. I would be tempted to call it an unweighted 3/4 shimmy

I'd like to bring up the weight transfer on the "default" 3/4 shimmy. I generally shift all my weight onto the standing leg on the 3rd "beat" of the 3/4 shimmy, so that the feeling is "and-a-ONE, and-a-TWO, and-a-THREE, etc.

HOLY SMOKES, I just had a (for me) revelation! When I did that "Egyptian Walk" slowly it dawned on me that this seems more like the "Basic Egyptian" walk instead of a 3/4 shimmy. Is it always done so slowly? As presented in the clip here, isn't it just a step-lift walk done more internally and lifting the hip straight up rather than twisting the hip forward?

I agree with tamrahenna. the second one I always thought was odd and not really a 3/4 shimmy although it corresponds more closely to the actual music concept of 3/4.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

I'd like to bring up the weight transfer on the "default" 3/4 shimmy. I generally shift all my weight onto the standing leg on the 3rd "beat" of the 3/4 shimmy, so that the feeling is "and-a-ONE, and-a-TWO, and-a-THREE, etc.

Sorry I missed this -- that's exactly what I was talking about with the timing.

As I understand it, that's exactly why Jamila named it the 3/4 shimmy. It's in 3/4 time.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Tricky!

Tell me, when you walk on it does some twisting naturally occur?

Nope - the hips face forward the whole time for both. (In these particular versions, anyway: I bet it would look pretty cool with a twist on it.)

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

I agree with tamrahenna. the second one I always thought was odd and not really a 3/4 shimmy although it corresponds more closely to the actual music concept of 3/4.

I also concurr with T-H TX. The first clip is how I was first taught to to a 3/4 shimmy as a baby dancer (on the up), and I could never get it for some reason. My current teacher showed it to me on the down and all of the sudden it clicked for me, and now I can do the up and other variations on it too.

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

I agree with tamrahenna. the second one I always thought was odd and not really a 3/4 shimmy although it corresponds more closely to the actual music concept of 3/4.

I think people are disagreeing on what "3/4" means. It sounds like we're using it to refer to three different things:

1) The 3/4 time signature. That's the meaning of seeing 3/4 written on sheet music, i.e., a waltz. (So using "3/4" in the same way that we use "4/4", "6/8" or "9/8") Each measure (logical chunk) of the music has three even beats. That is:
123 123 123 123, etc.. BUT under that scenario, the 1, 2, and 3 each refers to a quarter note, which gives you a fairly slow movement (i.e., one hip accent for each step that a waltzing dancer would take)


2) three-quarters in the sense of a fraction, meaning that if you break each beat into four even parts, three have a movement, and one does not. (i.e., the pausing method). This is what "and a one and a two" is:
and a one (pause) and a two (pause) and a three (pause) and a four (pause)

If you can't tell if you're pausing, try saying it as "and a one and, and a two and, and a three and, and a four and" without breathing. If it ends up fitting the same pattern when you say the "and" as when you don't, then you have been pausing. (i.e., if tap your foot on the 1, 2, 3, and 4 both when you do and don't say the last "and" - if you have been pausing, the tapping will be the same in both cases)


3) I think what aziyade is referring to (when she said she doesn't do the pause) is a triplet, where each quarter note (or whatever the base unit is) gets three even accents. These can be done to any time signature. You could have music in 4/4 time and do triplets on each of the four beats. So with an underlying beat of 1,2,3,4, you get:

hip hip hip hip hip hip hip hip hip hip hip hip
1_________2________3________4________

(if you say "pineapplepineapplepineapplepineapple", without breathing between them, you'll get a triplet. If you were tapping your foot on the 1, 2, 3, and 4, you'd be tapping on the syllable "pine")


I'm ***NOT**** saying that any one of these three is any more correct that the others. Just trying to disambiguate.