Thread: What is the average of your oldest students?

This is a bit of a spin off on the "how young thread". What is the average age of your oldest students? I have recently had a few inquires by a group of ladies in their late 70's who are interested in studying the art. When I first began dancing I met a lovely lady named Irene. She was 72 at the time and had been dancing since she was 69, she was a really good dancer and a lovely person. I have a specialty in gerontological nursing. I welcome this challenge. To build a class specific to their needs (physically) while teaching the art form. Does anyone have any experience with this? If so, please share your thoughts. I would love to see what others have done in this type of scenario. I have met these ladies by performing with my student troupe at Red Hat Society parties. This is a very good opportunity for troupe performances. The Red Hat Ladies like to have fun. Check them out in your own communities.

I often have ladies in there 60's, 70's, and beyond in my community ed classes. this is a mixed age group starting with teens though, not all mature ladies.
I really enjoy teaching them! They tend to try anything and not be shy! And some are just a hoot, making class so much fun (also good for the teens to see interact with these vibrant women and see another view contary to the media, young is all view!)
I do make sure to teach several ways of warming up, really keep saying that we all come with a history in our bodies and tell them to ask how to do a movement if you just can't seem to because of an issue with that part of your body. I also have found that suggesting that they use dance sneakers helps with balance. These things are so very important as you want them to improve the physical body, not hurt it and then not come back!
Belly dance is SUCH a good thing to do for hip flexability something we all need now and in later years and something that mature students stuggle with.
I have one student who is in my student performance group she is (as she says) 60something. At my last student hafla I had one 20somehting student tell me "That lady is my inspiration!" And she is.
Teaching all ages can be very rewarding for the student and the teacher!

I had one student who never gave me her age but had 12 great grandbabies!

I've had several in their mid-70s.

I keep thinking about starting a group just for them, the 'Silver Sirens.' Membership would be at the dancer's discretion (in other words, no cutoff age, anyone is free to choose this group if it feels more appropriate to them than the regular group)

Every time I try to get help with this on Bhuz, though, I get flamed for somehow discriminating. I don't get it, I'd be happy to have a 100 year old woman in my regular group if that's where she felt comfortable, this would just be an option for those who feel overwhelmed by the regular group... some of these women find it much more difficult to memorize complicated choreos, they don't like spinning or traveling too much, they want choreo that plays down their weaknesses and plays up their strengths more (their strengths seem to be emoting, taxims, and they looooove veilwork)

I have several ladies who are interested in it (age late 50s on up mostly) and keep asking me when I'll start it. But I've given up on trying to get any help here, so it's dropped to the bottom of my priority list since I'm on my own and unsure how to proceed. :(

Lauren,

Hate to hear that you are getting flammed for that. It's a shame. Women who are that age (70 +) grew up in a different time when women were more discreet about things (God knows my grandmothe is) and they might actually enjoy a class with women their own age who MAY share the same expierences and thoughts they do.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I had one student who never gave me her age but had 12 great grandbabies!

I've had several in their mid-70s.

I keep thinking about starting a group just for them, the 'Silver Sirens.' Membership would be at the dancer's discretion (in other words, no cutoff age, anyone is free to choose this group if it feels more appropriate to them than the regular group)

Every time I try to get help with this on Bhuz, though, I get flamed for somehow discriminating. I don't get it, I'd be happy to have a 100 year old woman in my regular group if that's where she felt comfortable, this would just be an option for those who feel overwhelmed by the regular group... some of these women find it much more difficult to memorize complicated choreos, they don't like spinning or traveling too much, they want choreo that plays down their weaknesses and plays up their strengths more (their strengths seem to be emoting, taxims, and they looooove veilwork)

I have several ladies who are interested in it (age late 50s on up mostly) and keep asking me when I'll start it. But I've given up on trying to get any help here, so it's dropped to the bottom of my priority list since I'm on my own and unsure how to proceed. :(

You should try running it again Lauren. You are correct that they require a different class and or learning structure due to possible limitations related to aging. I have advertised it a couple of times calling that class Goddess. It is only now that some of them have discussed it and thought about it for a little bit, they are willing to step out of the box and try something different. Many of them have told me it is on their bucket list These women have old beauty, wisdom and the knowledge of a lifetime. I might learn something from them as well.
I can't believe someone would flame you and accuse you of ageism. Wow.
A good teacher or business/owner should know her market and or the possibilities of a special niche market. Seniors who are active live longer. It is proven. I thank everyone for their input so far. I too was inspired by Irene when I first started dancing. I thought if she can, I can too. Lauren btw...I love the Silver Sirens...it is an awesome name.,r:;

Originally Posted by Souzan

No secret, I am in my early sixties. A group of around the same age group started dancing together in the same class and perform together from time to time as "Vintage Raqs" We usually dance to golden age music so the vintage part refers to our age as well as to the music. We decided to do this on our own so it was our decision and not labeling by our instructor.

I cannot do double veil or extended spinning. Three, maybe four spins in the same direction are max for me. My floorwork is limited because of my knees. I wear ankle and knee wraps for workshops or long classes, especially if there is going to be a lot of turning or spinning. I have to work a lot harder at flexibility than younger dancers do.

Older dancers have fewer inhibitions than you might think. You reach a point (for me it was 50) when you say I am old enough to do whatever the hell I want to! Emotions are easy for me. I have a lot to say. So is cheekiness or sexiness. A cheeky boob shimmy on a 60 year old comes off a lot differently than on a 25 year old.

I think stressing flexibility, fluidity, posture, core strength are things that make the dance very accessible to older beginners.

Souzan

You go Souzan!!!!! There is a couple of ladies in my area who dance and formed a group of belly dancing grammas called " Off our Raqers" !!..l;, It is this type of positive mental attitude and sense of humor that make the dance fun and positive for any age group. And even knowing one's limitations, due to joint problems and flexibility isses does not preclude one from enjoying the art. Thanks Souzan, you have inspired me.

I remember that thread. Some of my favorite things about learning this dance has been the older women i've come to be friends with. I'd hate to have missed out on those opportunities.
But I do understand the need for a separate class. The ladies in the company have been dancing for 20 years so they don't apply to the group you're talking about and they aren't in their 70s.

Do you know, I don't actually know? I've never asked. But I have students with children in their mid 40s and 50s so I assume they must be in their 60s, closer to 70. I know of one dancer who I am certain is in her 70s.

My oldest students at this time are under 65.

Deborah

I have nightmares about hip replacement surgeries thinking about 70 year olds in my classes. Sorry I can't do it personally they would have to have a note from their doctor. One trip and fall and its all over.

Of course this is coming from a certified nurses aid who see's these type of injuries all to frequently.

Souzan,

I have seen dancers trip and fall. Its not an everyday occurrence but it happen in the dance world and even in belly dance classes. Luckily these are younger dancers who's bodies can take the punishment, but if it were a 70 year old the risk of injury is much greater. Their BMI drops, bones and joints more fragile, and sense of balance is reduced. Most of those hip injuries that require surgery that I see are from simple falls in the home. I can only see a greater risk in a movement class where you have hard floors.

I would feel horrible if I had one in my class that fell and broke a hip or the other common injury broken wrist from trying to catch their self. Sorry, I just can't do it personally. I would rather they take exercise class more suited to their age.

I am also a certified restorative aid so I've worked in the physical therapy field. Helping these seniors learn to walk again.

Here is a link to an Austrailian Study conducted between 2002 and 2003
published in November 2006.

http://www.nisu.flinders.edu.au/pubs...6/injcat93.pdf

I say go for it. I like the idea that you don't plan on having a posted age limit. I used to care for a woman who had autism. She was in her late forties but had essentially stopped walking (she crawled every where there was nothing wrong with her legs). My job was to get her up and moving again. It took a couple of years but I finally got her walking outside of the house.
Her mother wanted to sign her up for some exercise classes but didn't think that she could handle the ones at the rec center for her age group. We had to beg and plead and pull some strings but we got her into ball balance classes at the senior rec center. These classes were just perfect for her. The ladies were all very kind and the class moved at a pace that she could handle. We also ended up taking Yoga and Tai Chi this way as well. It was a wonderful experience.
Do it, if they would rather be in your regular classes, they will sign up for that. It isn't ageism when you are simply offering a choice.

i coach dancers, 60, 63, 75. i am 58 , so chat about a class for those in their later 50's struck me as odd.but you all think i am odd, so who cares.

Originally Posted by rakgirl

I remember that thread. Some of my favorite things about learning this dance has been the older women i've come to be friends with. I'd hate to have missed out on those opportunities.
But I do understand the need for a separate class. The ladies in the company have been dancing for 20 years so they don't apply to the group you're talking about and they aren't in their 70s.

I don't think many opportunities for intergenerational interaction would be missed. I think some ladies would choose to attend a weekly class in addition to being in the group, and others would choose to be in the 'all ages' class rather than the 'silver specific' class, depending on their dance experience and health. I'm thinking at most 5-6 students would take the 'Silver' option.

Originally Posted by zamora

i coach dancers, 60, 63, 75. i am 58 , so chat about a class for those in their later 50's struck me as odd.but you all think i am odd, so who cares.

The class would be for any ages that choose the 'Silver' option, Cory. So far the students who've expressed the most interest happen to be in their late 50s -- although I just lost a student in her early 60s because she's having hip issues, and although her doctor would like her to exercise, she's finding the level 4 class too active (and doesn't want to go backward). This group might solve her problem if I get it off the ground soon. That's why I've been thinking about it again lately (so glad this thread came up, sorry if I threadjacked!)

Again, dancers in their 60s, 70's, etc. are still welcome in my regular classes if they're happy there. I'm not forcing anyone into a separate class.

I love your clarity about this, Souzan!

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

I would feel horrible if I had one in my class that fell and broke a hip or the other common injury broken wrist from trying to catch their self. Sorry, I just can't do it personally. I would rather they take exercise class more suited to their age.

For me, this is such a slippery slope, though. If I decide to keep people out because of their age, what about the ones who have a history of heart problems, high blood pressure, fibromyalga, back surgeries, etc? Or someone who's pregnant? I can't take on those kind of worries, or I'd never have the guts to step into a classroom.

I teach as safely as I know how, and never force anyone to do movements that they're not comfortable with. But these are adults, and it's their role to make responsible decisions regarding their health, not me.

Originally Posted by Souzan

So, what is an exercise class more suited to their age? Mall walking? They could slip on a slick floor. Wheelchair yoga? The chair could tip over. Or maybe shuffleboard? Dislocated shoulders here we come! Or maybe they should just find a comfortable rocking chair and watch exercise videos.

Souzan

Hey, I'm just stating what my age limit would be. This is a discussion about that, so what is your age limit souzan, 80, 90, 100? I don't comdemn anyone that sets a higher or lower limit. I'm just stating my view.

Why all the hostility or snarkiness?

outside of children, i have never grouped clients by age.they seem to go into groups according to skill, type of interest etc.
the dancers i spoke of, all take privates.
but i have released a dvd for seniors.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

I have nightmares about hip replacement surgeries thinking about 70 year olds in my classes. Sorry I can't do it personally they would have to have a note from their doctor. One trip and fall and its all over.

Of course this is coming from a certified nurses aid who see's these type of injuries all to frequently.

A while ago in the class just before mine there was a woman whose hip suddenly broke. Awful of course but it's her body and her responsibility. It could have happened going to the store or at home. I couldn't imagine anyone blaming the teacher and noone thought the old woman was foolish or irresponsible either. Accidents can def happen but I would hate for her to have restricted herself and her dreams because she might break something (ok, maybe within reason, but still it's her own choice of course). She was probably in better shape for the reconvalesence (sp?) too than if she hadn't danced.
Well it might be different in the US with the sueing-thing and all.

Originally Posted by zamora

outside of children, i have never grouped clients by age.they seem to go into groups according to skill, type of interest etc.
the dancers i spoke of, all take privates.
but i have released a dvd for seniors.

Then why do you say it seems strange to offer them separate instruction?

I only feel inclined to flame when someone patronises me for my age and those of my older students. "Oh aren't you game at your age. " "Oh the wisdom you oldies bring!"
Bo$$ocks I can be as much of a scardy cat as a 5 year old and as daft as a brush...g.:
But I got on stage and danced faster and longer than some half my age last Saturday.
At present I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest bar one in my class which seems younger than ever. You need to be aware of the health and safety of every student in your class and take note of anyone's special needs wether they are 14 or 44 or 84. If you have a mixed age class, you have to cater for them all by showing dancers with restrictions the appropriate adaptations and alternatives.
I constantly remind my students not to push themselves beyond the bounds of comfort after all this is not an uncomfortable dance and it is an accomodating dance.
I don't like to discriminate on age grounds but admit if you were teaching frail seniors then we are into very thoughtful territory.
But then my son worked as student in a retirement home where there was a ex-"Bluebell Girl"who was still high kicking in her 70s.
My message would be to treat every student as an individual with individual reasons for coming to class and individual needs for exercise or recreation whatever their age.
The most serious problem health wise I have encountered are a student with a split pelvis who came with doctor's consent but had to give up when it split again in her second pregnancy. She was not 30 and a lady who had had her hip replaced (again came with doctors blessing) but who has given up as she needs the other done. She is just 40!
MY 69 year old student carries on shimmying with unbelievable and gracious gusto.

Originally Posted by Souzan

YMCA offers Silver Sneakers classes that involve quite a bit more physical activity than the average belly dance class. Step Aerobics, Jazzercize, Zumba can cause potentially more kneee or back damage than belly dance can.
Souzan

There are a *lot* of seniors in my Zumba class - a class which is pretty taxing on me in my late 30's. I have to modify the moves somewhat, or my knees and back could never take it. When I see the 60-something woman next to me whipping her hips around in a huge ommi with no visible abdominal engagement (i.e. major hyperextention of the lower back) to the Lollipop song, it makes me cringe.

Originally Posted by Souzan

I just think it is ironic that we promote this dance form as one for all sizes, shapes, ages and then you put an upper age limit to prevent the group that might best benefit from belly dance classes from participating.

I believe our misunderstanding surrounds around what type of classes we are offering. Please don't assume that WE all promote our classes as one for all sizes, shapes and ages. My classes are targeted for those who seek a greater technical challenge and more athleticism in this dance. They would be to difficult for the average 70 year old who has NOT been physically active. That is why I suggest that students prepare by doing 20-30 mins of cardio 3-4 times a week for taking my classes.

As for something that would be more suited for 70 year olds. I'm not going to give an answer. I think it would have to be on an individual bases and what programs their doctor says is appropriate.

Here is a good article on the subject. Exercise after age 70 Information on Healthline It recommends a physical screening and testing. That is why I stated earlier that if they were to take my classes they would have to have a note from their doctor. By age 70 adults are most likely to have some form of disability: physical limitation, diabetes and/or cardiovascular diseases. Based on doctors determination his/her recommendations will determine what level of activity is best suited for that person.

As for someones earlier statement that it is the responsibility of the student and we are not to worry about it. I believe that is a very ignorant statement. If we are so concerned about injury prevention proper posture then I believe we need to responsible to ensure that our classes are appropriate for the student that enters it. That is why I put in my release of liability that students disclose when their last physical exam was and that their doctor has cleared them for an exercise program and what programs their doctor recommended.

I am all for 70 year olds taking belly dance, but my classes IMO are not appropriate. I am just going the extra mile to look out for their best interest. Go ahead and crucify me for trying to be responsible instructor.

Oh and BTW I'm lowering my standard to 65 based on that article. They will need to have a note from their physician.

Out here our "seinor" population triples in the winter due to the snowbirds who come from around October until March/April. I do have some ladies in my evening classes that are over the age of retirement from thier mundane jobs (65 I think that is) year round but there aren't too many. I suspect the reason I don't have many of the upper tier ladies in my evening classes in the summer is due to the tempratures. When its 110 to 115 on your way to class and you know your going to be working hard for an hour and a half, yeah you tend to decide not to go too often...lol.

Now in the winter season I start a twice a week daytime class, same hour and a half format, for our snowbirds. I'd guess the adverage is around 70 to 75 for the ages of the women in those classes although I have a couple who claim to be in their 80's (I don't believe them cause they certainly don't look it *grin*). The big difference in how I teach is I go a little slower, we take more warm up/cool down time as well as more time breaking down the moves to make sure we can accomadate things like hip/knee/shoulder issues. I must be doing something right. The twice weekly daytime classes are steady in attendance, I have one RV park lined up to have me come teach out there starting in January and two others interested my only other avaliable daytime timeslot. I really like teaching these ladies. They have no problems laughing and giggleing at themselves when a move doesn't come easy to them and they are way more relaxed about their body shapes and sizes. They also are more likely to actually pay attention to "that doesn't feel right" and speak up when "I can't do that move due to whatever physical issue may hinder it. Can we adapt it" I find its the gals under 50 who are more likely to hurt themselves trying too hard and not giving themselves time to actually get their muscles trained to the movements or trying to push past their own range of movement because they come in with the "its so easy" attitude.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

I believe our misunderstanding surrounds around what type of classes we are offering. Please don't assume that WE all promote our classes as one for all sizes, shapes and ages. My classes are targeted for those who seek a greater technical challenge and more athleticism in this dance. They would be to difficult for the average 70 year old who has NOT been physically active. That is why I suggest that students prepare by doing 20-30 mins of cardio 3-4 times a week for taking my classes.

As for something that would be more suited for 70 year olds. I'm not going to give an answer. I think it would have to be on an individual bases and what programs their doctor says is appropriate.




As for someones earlier statement that it is the responsibility of the student and we are not to worry about it. I believe that is a very ignorant statement. If we are so concerned about injury prevention proper posture then I believe we need to responsible to ensure that our classes are appropriate for the student that enters it. That is why I put in my release of liability that students disclose when their last physical exam was and that their doctor has cleared them for an exercise program and what programs their doctor recommended.

I am all for 70 year olds taking belly dance, but my classes IMO are not appropriate. I am just going the extra mile to look out for their best interest. Go ahead and crucify me for trying to be responsible instructor.

Oh and BTW I'm lowering my standard to 65 based on that article. They will need to have a note from their physician.

No I call you responsible,honest and quite within your rights to say you are not prepared to take chances with anyone's health and well-being.
I saw ladies..I would say of 65+..in a tribal belly dance class at Raks B with one of the BDSS and because that class had "slow" in its' title, they had obviously thought..."Ah that's for me" so all togged up in best circle skirt and flowers in their hair and imagining that a super fit Californian babe would provide them with a 2 hour ramble around her style,they settled at the back of a large workshop.
So I watched 2 ladies who could not even get up and down off the floor fast enough to keep up with an intensive yoga-training type session I would have no way attempted. I also feared my very basic first response training might be called into use.I tried to help another student who was very out of breath and could not keep up, a well built gal in her 40s but she refused and in the end limped away and gave up. The older ladies did a lot of sitting out.
By all means, as an intructor you have every right and indeed duty to call a halt to a student out of their depth.
There is a class and place for the older dancer and you are entitled to say yours isn't it!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I have several ladies who are interested in it (age late 50s on up mostly) and keep asking me when I'll start it. But I've given up on trying to get any help here, so it's dropped to the bottom of my priority list since I'm on my own and unsure how to proceed. :(

Lauren, why don't you talk with your doctor and a physical therapist. I feel that they could give you greater insight and help you design a program for this age group. I'm sure they would be excited to help, since we are talking about improving the quality of life for their patients.

Originally Posted by Souzan

Why is technical proficiency and atheleticism automatically out of the grasp of an older dancer?

I don't believe I stated that is was.

Senior citizens are more fit and more health conscious than ever and as boomers continue to get older, you will more and more active and athletic 70 year olds than ever.

Show me the data!

here is mine.

here is article Aging - Health Information for Older Adults - Healthy Aging for Older Adults by the CDC

highlights.

Finally, physical activity does not need to be strenuous to be beneficial; people of all ages benefit from moderate physical activity. However, people tend to be less active as they age. By age 75, about one in three men and one in two women do not engage in any physical activity.

Seven million persons aged 65 years or older (20.1% of all people in this age group) have diabetes.

Obesity has reached epidemic proportions among Americans in all age groups. Obesity among adults has doubled since 1980. People who are obese or overweight are at increased risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, arthritis-related disabilities, and some cancers.

In the United States, one of every three persons aged 65 years and older falls each year. Among older adults, falls are the leading cause of injuries, hospital admissions for trauma, and deaths due to injury. In 1999, about 10,097 seniors died of fall-related injuries. 16 Fractures are the most serious health consequence of falls. Approximately 250,000 hip fractures, the most serious fracture, occur each year among people over age 65.

Heart failure sends more seniors to hospitals - Heart health- msnbc.com

CHICAGO - The number of people 65 or older who are hospitalized for heart failure more than doubled in the past 27 years.

I'm not saying that belly dance is bad for seniors. Any physical activity is a benefit, but for the average population there is a higher risk. Lizajuk made my point about that in regards to what I believe is the average physical ability of this group.

In the classes I attend for myself which are not of the Suhaila format. I am the oldest dancer in the room and I take lessons from broad range of Instructors, the only other person who is older than me is the instructor. Even in these classes which are easier than mine older adults would fine them difficult. Just be safe and design a class for this age group.

It is time for me to leave. This subject is too close for me to be objective and not take offense. I apologise for posting based on my own emotions.

Souzan

Sou,

I'm sorry this subject is touchy for you. Really, I do. I'm 47 and I push myself very hard to increase my strength, stamina and ability. I count every push up, every belly crunch and leg extensions. When I'm having a bad day and can't do those thirty military push-ups or only 80 out of the hundred leg extensions I could normally do. I then have the fear that my abilities are already declining.

Each day I am learning more and more about my body. That when I work 80 hours a week, my body is worn out and I can't do my best when I dance. When I don't eat right I don't have the energy to do my two hour minimum practice session.

I have a 17 percent rated disability. Sometimes I have to use my percocet just so I can do my practice session or even some workshops. I live in fear of every ache and pain I feel. Sometimes I wonder, is this it? Is this the pain that will take me out of dance forever? So this issue is also very personal for me.

I push my self hard cause I want to try and prevent a decline in my physical abilities in my later years. Yes, I know that there is going to be a decline eventually, I just want to hold it off as long as possible. I want to be one of those 70 yr olds who are the exception from the statistics.

Originally Posted by AngelaDiCaprio

Lauren, why don't you talk with your doctor and a physical therapist. I feel that they could give you greater insight and help you design a program for this age group. I'm sure they would be excited to help, since we are talking about improving the quality of life for their patients.

Thanks, but that's not the end I have issues with. I was an exercise/wellness major in college and I'm an ACE certified group fitness instructor with a 200 hour RYT from Yoga Alliance. I do a lot of work with seniors (and other special needs groups). I'm guessing you must have a strong exercise/fitness background, too?

It's the dance end I wanted help with -- working within these students' weaknesses, finding their strengths, and still giving them meaningful instruction -- and maybe providing performance opportunities to them as a group.

Of course, I can manage it without help. But as clearly enthusiastic as my own students are, the weird responses I get on Bhuz keep leaving me feeling unsure about the whole thing. I know I should ignore them and give my students what they want... but I don't want to do anything that might be perceived as 'segregating' or 'shoving off' by NEW students coming in.