Thread: Putting an experienced dancer in a beginner class

I was warned this might happen by my last teacher...

I just moved back to the states and contacted the teachers in the area about classes, and one of them invited me to her studio's hafla tonight. There was a free dance at the end, and so I got up and danced a little. Afterwards I asked the instructor about which class I could enroll in. Like I said, my last teacher told me that many instructors made ALL new students go through the beginner class, because they have their own way of doing things and their own vocabulary, so I wasn't surprised by the fact that the new teacher suggested it, although my pride was a little hurt (I'll admit, there are things I need to work on, but being told to go into a beginner class after three years is a hard pill to swallow).

So anyways, other than whinging about it because I really don't want to stand around and relearn the things I've spent the last three years doing, I'm just curious who out there does this. What are the benefits to the experienced student? The less experienced ones? Is it good for anything other than asserting the teacher's terminology/authority?

The benefits aren't just terminology, they can be technical approach too. For instance, this is a really little one - I teach as basic a hip drop/thrust that is largely driven by the supporting leg (the obliques are working too of course but the working supporting leg is crucial). There are dancers everywhere who don't do a hip drop this way, and they have real difficulty adjusting to it. I want dancers to be able to do it not only because it's how I was taught, but because I think it's actually less potentially damaging on the knee than a straight legged one where the dancer just boings her unweighted hip up and down, usually with her supporting knee locked and in really great cases, hyperextended. As well as this concern, I want people to learn to use their legs for texture, and to be able to use their legs at the same time as, and independently of, the various muscles in the torso. So that one day they might be able to, you know, walk and create sharp accents at the same time, shimmy on one foot, etc.

It's hard enough to get people to use their legs even when you teach them to, never mind when they come in from years of different training and hurtle straight into a higher level class. What we usually do is, if someone has some BD experience they can go straight into L2, and if that's too easy we can let them try L3 but we won't let them be in L3 unless they're up to it according to us, which usually means an assessment.

What I've found is that you'll get dancers from elsewhere who are doing some more intermediate moves as standard, but can't do some things we consider to be really basic. They need to learn those movements.

If you are ready for a higher level class with this teacher, you'll probably find you progress really quickly and go into it anyway.

If you are worried about this ask if you can have a trial free lesson. Have you found out how long people stay in beginners. some beginner classes have dancers of up to 2 years and are more like improvers. Other teachers do 6 weeks beginners. Talk to the teacher.

also, theres always a benefit to drilling the basics over and over , no matter how long you have been dancing . Ive been bellydancing since age four, but I still drill all the basics as regularly as possible. they are the foundation for the rest of the dance - think of it as an oppertunity to REFINE your movement rather than as repeating what uve already learned. theres no such thing as too much practice

Originally Posted by zumarrad

The benefits aren't just terminology, they can be technical approach too. For instance, this is a really little one - I teach as basic a hip drop/thrust that is largely driven by the supporting leg (the obliques are working too of course but the working supporting leg is crucial). There are dancers everywhere who don't do a hip drop this way, and they have real difficulty adjusting to it. I want dancers to be able to do it not only because it's how I was taught, but because I think it's actually less potentially damaging on the knee than a straight legged one where the dancer just boings her unweighted hip up and down, usually with her supporting knee locked and in really great cases, hyperextended. As well as this concern, I want people to learn to use their legs for texture, and to be able to use their legs at the same time as, and independently of, the various muscles in the torso. So that one day they might be able to, you know, walk and create sharp accents at the same time, shimmy on one foot, etc.

It's hard enough to get people to use their legs even when you teach them to, never mind when they come in from years of different training and hurtle straight into a higher level class. What we usually do is, if someone has some BD experience they can go straight into L2, and if that's too easy we can let them try L3 but we won't let them be in L3 unless they're up to it according to us, which usually means an assessment.

What I've found is that you'll get dancers from elsewhere who are doing some more intermediate moves as standard, but can't do some things we consider to be really basic. They need to learn those movements.

If you are ready for a higher level class with this teacher, you'll probably find you progress really quickly and go into it anyway.

I would be really interested in how you do this.

In the sense of?

Originally Posted by jencUK

I would be really interested in how you do this.

using supporting leg to drive movements. Thanks

Hmm, well, gee, it's hard to describe without showing, and to me it's the most normal thing in the world because I was never taught a hip drop in any other way. But anyway, I will try.

First of all, what I call a hip drop is when one hip is raised and drops down (ie it's not a pelvic drop). At our school we don't generally drop past a neutral position, not if we're doing the hip drop straight down the side (you can do it to the front and the back also). So in a way it is a misnomer, as it's really just a hip lift reversed, but the emphasis is on the down.

It's generally performed with most, if not all, of the weight on the supporting leg and the unweighted leg posed slightly ahead, both sets of toes pointing straight forward. You start with your pelvis gently lifted and both knees bent, knees over toes. It doesn't have to be a deep bend, but the knee should be soft and able to move. When you lift the unweighted hip (straight up under your ribcage, no slide out), the other hip should go down, below your neutral hip line. The reason the other hip goes down is because you allow your supporting leg to bend as you lift on the other side. Then, you drop the hip back to neutral. The supporting leg straightens (but NOT completely) and you use your adductors, your glutes or a combination of the two to stop the leg from straightening completely. That gives you quite a powerful and crisp drop, especially if you have strong legs to begin with. For some dancers (and I was one of them) all this leg work is quite unconscious - I got it copying a teacher who said "bend the supporting leg", and later, when some people weren't getting it, pointed out that the supporting leg needed to move.

This produces a small, very controlled but chunky drop that, to me, feels as if it happens right in that hip joint where the leg and hip meet. We do thrusts the same way. It's not as high in the body as what I see some Egyptian dancers doing. Although I think Randa uses her legs in this way at least some of the time. It was Hadia who really brought the adductor (as opposed to glute) idea to my attention, and this is because Hadia is all about letting your bum have reverb.

the supporting leg i keep bend as well, but the motion there is incredibly minimal though.

What is amore advanced dancer in one vocabulary might not be in another.
Maybe I could judge a dancer on a few seconds dancing but I would much prefer she joined a class where I could observe her tackling the basics.
I have a student who has been with another teacher and she has some things to undo in my eyes...but that's according partially (though not wholly) to the style I teach.

I'm just tossing out a suggestion... maybe it would be more beneficial for you to find an instructor that you really want to work with and take private lessons. That way the instructor can tailor the lessons to your skill level.

Not everyone has the money it takes to keep starting over at the beginner level every time they begin with a new instructor, I understand that there are benefits to doing it, (ie: terminology, drilling, etc.)

But it also sounds frustrating and costly to pay to "practice in a studio" while beginners are learning basic moves that you already know. You can do that for free on the internet watching youtube instruction videos.

Hopefully your time in the beginner's level will just enough to get you used to that instructor's way of doing things. One thing that can help when you're between levels, is to do both beginner and next level classes. Can you ask if you can do that? That way, you're getting a foundation in that instructor's way of moving, while also enjoying the challenge of a more advanced class, for your own satisfaction.

I generally put people in my beginner class, with rare exception. If I put you in a higher level class and say 'Now do a clock step with a shimmy' and you don't know what I'm talking about and have never done it before, then it's frustrating for you, me, and all the other students in class. Do I stop and break down a move they've already spent a lot of time on? Do I rush through the choreo even though you're stumbling? Imagine if that happens four or five times each hour because you learned the move with a different name, or in a slightly different version -- or not at all!

Imagine if a teacher let 10 people come straight into their advanced class, s/he could wind up spending a LOT of time every week going over some technique or other with one of them, and the students who came up through that studio would get really frustrated and wonder why on earth those people in the advanced class. And the 'new' students wind up feeling frustrated and blame the teacher 'She doesn't break things down very well.' It's a poor policy to follow.

In my studio at least, if you show up and put in the time, you could make it all the way up to level 4 in less than 6 months if you show me in class that you're comfortable with the technique. And you will have learned several choreographies in that time, learned some moves and/or music theory you didn't know before, etc.

So, benefits to the student:
- You will learn *some* new technique
- You'll get to drill your basics and can focus on maintaining perfect posture, lovely arms, a nice line of the head, a pleasant facial expression, making eye contact with others in the mirror
- You may learn some new choreo (my advanced students still love doing the level 1 choreos)
- If you're truly ready, you'll probably move through the levels quickly
- When you get to the higher level class, you'll 'fit in' and not be the odd man out who doesn't get what's happening around her.

Originally Posted by jewelbellydance

Hopefully your time in the beginner's level will just enough to get you used to that instructor's way of doing things. One thing that can help when you're between levels, is to do both beginner and next level classes. Can you ask if you can do that? That way, you're getting a foundation in that instructor's way of moving, while also enjoying the challenge of a more advanced class, for your own satisfaction.

I would definitely allow a student to do this.

Originally Posted by jencUK

If you are worried about this ask if you can have a trial free lesson. Have you found out how long people stay in beginners. some beginner classes have dancers of up to 2 years and are more like improvers. Other teachers do 6 weeks beginners. Talk to the teacher.

Thanks for the idea. She's only teaching three weeks this month, so I was planning to go ahead and go to the two lessons that I'm not scheduled to work, and see how they go.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

What is amore advanced dancer in one vocabulary might not be in another.

Yes. And one teacher's "beginner" class is another teacher's "intermediate." Like Lauren, I tend to err on the side of placing transfer students in my Level 1 or Level 2. I have had students come to me who have been dancing 5 or more years who really need to re-learn some basic technique and/or unlearn some bad habits (wasn't there a thread on this sort of issue recently). Also, I focus A LOT on culture, Arabic rhythms, and musical interpretation (focusing on Egyptian classical music), and a student who has no grounding in those aspects of the dance will really struggle in my higher-level classes.

Nisaa

She may not have watched you dance at the hafla. Perhaps she was busy and didn't take some time out to see where you are at?

I always start students in beginner level regardless of past experience. Once your body is accustomed to moving a certain way, it is hard to unlearn those engrams to adapt to a new style. If I bring someone new to intermediate or advanced class and have to reteach technique that the others already have a grasp on, then it slows the rest of the class down. Sometimes they're only at the beginner level for a few classes before being bumped to a higher level, but it still gives me the opportunity to touch on things like posture and other technique. I'd rather move someone up, than slow down a higher level class or move the student down a level.

Why not stick it out in the beginner class for one session, and see how you adapt? If you feel you've got a good grasp of her style, then have a chat with her about where you'd feel most comfortable. You could alternately take private lessons with her for a while?

Originally Posted by venusahara

I'm just tossing out a suggestion... maybe it would be more beneficial for you to find an instructor that you really want to work with and take private lessons. That way the instructor can tailor the lessons to your skill level.

Not everyone has the money it takes to keep starting over at the beginner level every time they begin with a new instructor, I understand that there are benefits to doing it, (ie: terminology, drilling, etc.)

But it also sounds frustrating and costly to pay to "practice in a studio" while beginners are learning basic moves that you already know. You can do that for free on the internet watching youtube instruction videos.

The whole "pay to practice" thing was one of my concerns, but I know that I need a structure to work in, or at least, someone to be accountable to - in my mind at least - for practicing between classes, so a low class is better than no class. I did think about taking privates - that's how I've been studying - but there's not a lot of choice in Omaha.

[So, benefits to the student:
- You will learn *some* new technique
- You'll get to drill your basics and can focus on maintaining perfect posture, lovely arms, a nice line of the head, a pleasant facial expression, making eye contact with others in the mirror
- You may learn some new choreo (my advanced students still love doing the level 1 choreos)
- If you're truly ready, you'll probably move through the levels quickly
- When you get to the higher level class, you'll 'fit in' and not be the odd man out who doesn't get what's happening around her.[/QUOTE]

Lauren, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I probably sound like a sulky kid - I don't disagree with it in principle, but I needed an attitude adjustment, and thanks to everyone's input, I feel a lot better about it.

Muneera, if I were in your shoes, I'd be the one needing the attitude adjustment! It's a tough situation to be in.

I sometimes don't have control over who gets put in beginners and who gets put in intermediates, so I can act as a good 'control' if we regard experienced dancers being put in beginners and in intermediates as an 'experiment' :-)

There are three experienced dancers in my beginners class. Of these two haven't danced for a while, and one learned with a teacher who emphasised a bent knee stance, and didn't layer shimmying in the same way I do. These students have found some things easy, and other things complicated and all are glad they went to 'beginners'. The ones who haven't danced for a while needed the refresher and had forgotten how to do some of the beginner technique.

There are two 'experienced' dancers who went straight to intermediate, and I have been unable to break down what I would consider to be beginners technique for them. They are dancing 'alternative steps' in chorographies when they cannot do the steps (that I feel are beginners steps), they are unable to do combinations that build on these beginner steps, and therefore they sometimes look like the odd one out in class.

As a teacher it lowers my personal job satisfaction not be able to explain and help them, but at the same time, I am duty bound to teach at Intermediate level in an Intermediate class. They have made no progress in their 'weak' beginners areas. I also dread that they will turn up somewhere are declare that they are 'Caroline's Intermediate students'.

Occasionally I get the chance to drop in on beginning classes with one of my first teachers (from 10 years ago). I still learn a lot from those - last time she adjusted the angle of my fingers and the amount of flex in my knees. The key is that she always gives feedback - otherwise I'd simply be drilling, instead of learning.

So I would make sure you tell your new teacher that you welcome as much feedback as she can provide.

Due to study and work commitments I've had to do quite a bit of moving around since I started learning belly dance so I've had to go back to the beginning in a lot of classes now.

I generally approach this by talking to a teacher first. I assume that I will be put in beginners but I make sure that I express my interest in attending an intermediate/improvers/performance class should they judge me capable of it.

I've found this pays off because teachers like it when you are honest but defer to their judgment - apart from anything else it helps them to avoid situations like Caroline's.

The last 3 times I've had to attend a new class I've been very swiftly moved out of beginners but it helps with the attitude adjustment thing (which is always hard) if you just assume that you will always be put back in beginners when you move/change class.

I was in the same situation a few years ago when I changed teachers. I started over at square one. I'm so glad I did. I relearned a lot of movements that had become bad muscle habits (some of which were causing low back issues that I no longer experience) and was throroughly schooled in the way her choreographies are taught. My teacher only gives notes to level one students, after that it is up to the student to make notes, so in retrospect, I am so glad I moved through the ranks, learned her movement language, and learned how to write clear and specific choreography notes.

I had no idea that I would be learning this when I started out, so you too may find yourself having a whole new skill set as you move through your new teachers class levels.

I do know somewhat how you feel. I might be moving out-of-state next year. I know that it would make most sense for me to start with a new teacher's beginner classes, at least so that I can learn their techniques and terminology, and I realize that one person's experienced dancer is another person's newbie. Also, it's more respectful to the instructor and her dance philosophy. If she's a good teacher, I should be able to trust that she can assess my skills within her teaching program.

It does seem to be a bruise to the ego, and I get that. The ego gets bruised even when we know that something makes sense. I think it's just human nature. I've recently started taking classes in Suhaila Salimpour technique and I'm definitely a beginner there and my ego has walked away from several classes gasping for air. That is part of the fun of dance.

Still, I think it would be far less embarrassing to start in a beginner class and move up, then it would be to walk into intermediate or advanced and be asked to go back to the beginner level.

ETA: I agree with Adishakti that she might not have really seen you dance at the hafla. It might be that she was busy, or with so many people dancing that she may have seen you dance but wasn't really evaluating what you were doing.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I generally put people in my beginner class, with rare exception. If I put you in a higher level class and say 'Now do a clock step with a shimmy' and you don't know what I'm talking about and have never done it before, then it's frustrating for you, me, and all the other students in class. Do I stop and break down a move they've already spent a lot of time on? Do I rush through the choreo even though you're stumbling? Imagine if that happens four or five times each hour because you learned the move with a different name, or in a slightly different version -- or not at all!

You took the words right outta my mouth. If someone has prior BD lessons with a live instructor under their belt, they are still required to take one session of my Beginning class before advancing to Level 2.

And I'll be honest here. I get a slightly negative vibe off of a student who isn't willing to revisit the fundamentals for 6 weeks. I feel that the movements I teach/drill in my Beginning class are the foundation that more complex technique is built on, and they can never really be abandoned or the whole thing collapses. If I weren't teaching, I'd be drilling basic movement vocabulary a couple of hours a week on my own. I have some students that continue to take my Beginning class after advancing into Level 2 because they know they need to keep their fundamentals sharp. So when a person refuses to come to my classes because I won't skip them ahead to the next level, I tend to feel that I probably wouldn't be a very good fit for them as an instructor anyway.

Here's something to consider when you go to her beginner's class, especially if you're finding that it's too basic for you...

If you aspire to teach someday, use the time in the new teacher's beginner class to study how she approaches the craft of teaching. What vocabulary does she use to explain a shimmy? What does she do differently from your previous teacher? How does her choice of beginner-level material differ from your previous teacher's syllabus? What kind of dynamic do you observe between the teacher and the students - how are they responding to her?

It may feel less like a waste of time and less like a bruise to your ego if you treat it as an opportunity to observe teaching methodology and observe how a teacher handles a class environment.

Try not to think of it as a label: Beginner class, Intermediate class, or Advanced class. It's just a way for the instructors to teach to the middle of the class ability and cover material quickly. It says nothing about your ability as a dancer.

You definitely want to work your way from the ground up with each new instructor. Each instructor has a varying way of performing weight changes and moves, learning her technique is a whole new adventure.

I've experienced both sides of class labeling. With one teacher I was put in her beginner class and darn grateful to be there (this is beginner?????). Another teacher turned on me half way through class and asked why I was there? .w.: ..c:: "Um, that's where I was told to begin." She asked me to leave and return to her intermediate class. Imagine hubby's expression when I arrived home early & explained I was kicked out of class.

As a student who's moved around quite a bit, I feel your pain. I've luckily never had a teacher make me start all the way at at the beginning.

If you want to move to x level, why not schedule a private lesson or several to get you caught up or for her to assess where you are? I also find that if you talk to people, they may know who your former teacher is and have a relative idea of where you are technique-wise. I've been gradually switching over to private lessons because of schedule and because I will most likely move again next year.

I get what people are saying with the drilling basic moves, but part of me wonders how many of the teacher's students go back to the lower level classes to review the basics. You can drill the basics on your own; no one is knocking the importance of that.