Thread: Looking for advice on broaching a variety of awkward topics with students who need it

Well, it seems as if all the problems I haven't had over 4 years of running my studio are all popping up at once. Some I have fumbled through myself, others I am pretty sure I know the solution to, but I would still appreciate some good, solid Bhuz advice, comments, and pointers on anything I missed or could acheive better.

Students A:
Student x asked to go pro last year. She was of a standard, and able to give me the commitment, so I moved her from their class [under my pros, they have been going longest, though not nesc my most advanced anymore] to my pro group, where she has really blossomed. Unfortunatly, there are several others there who now think this automatically means they can do just that too. And for various reasons, they dont fit. Technique not as good as hers to start, and also important, several barely pitch up for their class, let alone the multiple classes I ask of the pros. Plus I know their family situations would be much more awkward to get around- gigs aren't always before the kids get home and running on time so hubby with stopwatch doesn't have to wait a minute. The other lady has a real mum-capable hubby and there is a super granny too, so she is available pretty much when I need her. But they, naturally,don't see all this. They are the class she was in, and they wanna, thus I must.

Student B.
Is fabulously over-enthusiastic about belly. She is a lovely, sweet person, but just...ahem..a little too much sometimes. She has pro aspirations. She is borderline on age out here [how sad, I mean we are talking forties not sixties, but c'est la vie] but got wind that one of my other dancers is her age, so that isn't worrying her so much now. Thing is, the other dancer in question is really very good, my top student, and uber vivacious to boot. Student B actually has the looks and body of a much younger woman, that isn't the prob- but she is very much intermediate. She is as nervy as all heck, and loses all her personality with her nerves, and her technique is good for her level, but will need a few good years of work before it near approaches what I need for pro- and the stage presence will prob take longer! I believe she thinks a year and she will be there. I am not even sure she will ever be there. It would be awkward enough if she were 20 and could take 20 years to get to a performing career. She kinda can't. If she doesn't magic there pretty fast, she probably won't be able to do it at all- and I don't think it will happen. But I don't want to wound her forever. She is a great amatuer dancer, and I am glad to have her perform for any of our community and cultural gigs. Just might not have the stuff for paid gigs.

Student C.
is actually a student A too. I made the mistake [I have now leant from] of letting any of my students who wished accompany the pro team to a provincial event we attended, since the later days allowed all level performances. This one, whilst there, made herself... a little unpopular. She is, I would suggest, used to being the central figure on holidays instead of 'one of the girls'. She also clearly didn't like me 'bossing' her around by demanding my usual performance behaviour standards instead of the looser code I hold my student-level performances to. BTW, I am a lot younger then her. She is a granny, though quite a young one. She dances passably but not fantasticaly. She is not really a pro team look in any way, and won't wear the skirt and bedlah that is pretty much demanded out here, let alone the new tighter stuff. She nicely informed me she wants to be in the pro class- but not dance pro shows! Ahem... and the point?

Lastly, I have a member of my pro team not pulling their weight, in fact, merrily took off a hiatus in the midst of our busy season! Which I wouldn't actually mind, except she seems to have had plenty of time to party whilst being so busy she couldn't belly dance. She is in line for a fat lecture about sock pulling or getting out when she returns, but any ideas on addressing this effectivly?

When I was a baby belly, my first teacher kept a very strict 'here are the pr's on their pedastle, here are you all' division. It led, inevitably, to some of the students being really catty and nasty to the show class, bad feeliing etc. When I started my studio, I thus tried not to do this, with more of a 'here they are, look up to them but they are one of you' sort of vibe. Now it is biting me in the proverbial. People see their more intricate choreographies, the 'fun' stuff like advanced sword choreograpies etc they get, and it is clearly 'so why don't we get to do the fun stuff too?' They don't see the 4x the time comitment, the sweat and tears, my tantrums at them I would never dare throw at a 'for fun' student, the hours and hours put into their choreographies vs the hour a week when they are there they put in. So, if neither the 'pedastle' nor the 'one of us' works, what does?

Any ideas, advice? Anyone had to deal with this sorta thing themselves and can share? Anything I can fix in me? All appreciated!
A.

Hi Amira,
I guess I am not understanding something here. I feel there isn't enough of a line between student and professional? If you are teaching students, then I don't see a problem with letting them take more advanced level classes if you think they are ready for it. If they aren't ready for it, tell them so. If you are a troupe leader or professional dance contractor, then perhaps instead of having a class advancement situation, you could hold auditions? Have a seperate situation. If you got a different teacher to help with that process, then whoever didn't make the grade couldn't just blame you for not making it, and you wouldn't lose a student. It just seems to me that there isn't enough of a clear line between student and professional, so perhaps people are getting confused?
I sure am!
Good luck.

Originally Posted by Amira_Siddiqah

... They don't see the 4x the time comitment, the sweat and tears, my tantrums at them I would never dare throw at a 'for fun' student, the hours and hours put into their choreographies vs the hour a week when they are there they put in. So, if neither the 'pedastle' nor the 'one of us' works, what does?

Any ideas, advice? Anyone had to deal with this sorta thing themselves and can share? Anything I can fix in me? All appreciated!
A.

They don't SEE the hours but you can make it clear to them all in written guidelines for your groups- a fantastic "new year, new format" guideline you can create as a hand out (and have on your website) and even require that they sign.
For example:
"For fun class meets 1x per week etc. Performances require you make 14 out of the 16 prior rehearsals, everyone must wear panties on stage etc. blah blah blah"
"Pro class is a serious time commitment! Class meets 3 times a week, for which you must attend 8 out of 12 classes each and every month. Costume requirements are the same for everyone, strict show rules are as follows etc...sign over your first born, name your first bedleh after me, eat, live and breath dance"
I might be exaggerating a little but you get the picture. ..g.:

Originally Posted by Amira_Siddiqah

Well, it seems as if all the problems I haven't had over 4 years of running my studio are all popping up at once. Some I have fumbled through myself, others I am pretty sure I know the solution to, but I would still appreciate some good, solid Bhuz advice, comments, and pointers on anything I missed or could acheive better.


Student B.
Is fabulously over-enthusiastic about belly. She is a lovely, sweet person, but just...ahem..a little too much sometimes. She has pro aspirations. She is borderline on age out here [how sad, I mean we are talking forties not sixties, but c'est la vie] but got wind that one of my other dancers is her age, so that isn't worrying her so much now. Thing is, the other dancer in question is really very good, my top student, and uber vivacious to boot. Student B actually has the looks and body of a much younger woman, that isn't the prob- but she is very much intermediate. She is as nervy as all heck, and loses all her personality with her nerves, and her technique is good for her level, but will need a few good years of work before it near approaches what I need for pro- and the stage presence will prob take longer! I believe she thinks a year and she will be there. I am not even sure she will ever be there. It would be awkward enough if she were 20 and could take 20 years to get to a performing career. She kinda can't. If she doesn't magic there pretty fast, she probably won't be able to do it at all- and I don't think it will happen. But I don't want to wound her forever. She is a great amatuer dancer, and I am glad to have her perform for any of our community and cultural gigs. Just might not have the stuff for paid gigs.

Maybe I am reading this wrong. Help me understand something...What does age have to do with this? What does her age have to do with when she becomes professional ?
I empathize as a studio owner the challenges we can all face with a variety of students and where to proceed with their dance paths. You just have to be upfront with them all and you set the ground rules for your expectations. You would be surprised how that can inspire them to do better. When offering critique make sure you point out 7 positives before you go to the topics that require work. Be encouraging and positive, yet honest.

Yet as for the age comments....not too cool with that. How old are you? I am a gramma and I belly dance> should I not be dancing professionally because I am 47? Pleasant Gehman aka Princess Farhana is gonna be 50, is she too old? I have danced with professionals in their 60s.... Aida Nour ring a bell? Do we not profess this is a timeless art for ageless people? We really should leave the age thing out of it. I am a strong believer in it is never too late to become pro at anything.

Holding auditions for the pro class would be a great idea as well having a contract stating the time and costuming requirements.
I think videotaping the prospective pros so they can have a look might be a good idea. Maybe tape them doing a choreo with the existing pros at the audition and see how it looks. That way maybe they can also see if they don't match up.

Originally Posted by susuabdo

Maybe I am reading this wrong. Help me understand something...What does age have to do with this? What does her age have to do with when she becomes professional ?
I empathize as a studio owner the challenges we can all face with a variety of students and where to proceed with their dance paths. You just have to be upfront with them all and you set the ground rules for your expectations. You would be surprised how that can inspire them to do better. When offering critique make sure you point out 7 positives before you go to the topics that require work. Be encouraging and positive, yet honest.

Yet as for the age comments....not too cool with that. How old are you? I am a gramma and I belly dance> should I not be dancing professionally because I am 47? Pleasant Gehman aka Princess Farhana is gonna be 50, is she too old? I have danced with professionals in their 60s.... Aida Nour ring a bell? Do we not profess this is a timeless art for ageless people? We really should leave the age thing out of it. I am a strong believer in it is never too late to become pro at anything.

Maybe you could have a professional level class so that anyone who wants to be professional can receive harder things and more critique.
Then have a troupe class and this one could be by audition only. You can set standards for your troop and you are entitled to do that. Many troops have a height/weight requirement...etc..

Originally Posted by susuabdo

Maybe I am reading this wrong. Help me understand something...What does age have to do with this? What does her age have to do with when she becomes professional ?

...

Yet as for the age comments....not too cool with that. How old are you? I am a gramma and I belly dance> should I not be dancing professionally because I am 47? Pleasant Gehman aka Princess Farhana is gonna be 50, is she too old? I have danced with professionals in their 60s.... Aida Nour ring a bell? Do we not profess this is a timeless art for ageless people? We really should leave the age thing out of it. I am a strong believer in it is never too late to become pro at anything.

I'm confused by this as well.

I'm not sure what the issues are exactly.

I think if you feel people are not up to your standards with technique, I wouldn't let them in your class. I don't think anyone enjoys those conversations, but they are necessary. I wouldn't base it on what you perceive to be their level of commitment; you don't know how they can swing things when they wish. If they prove to you that they can't commit, you should remove them from your class.

For the student C, I'm really confused. So she wants to attend the class but not perform? I don't think that's a terrible crime. Maybe she realizes that she isn't a performer but still wants to attend class at a higher level? If you feel she isn't setting back the group because of technique, why not just let her attend but let her know that she may have to sit out if the group is practicing staging or something?

I think Samira is spot-on.

Some very specific guidelines as to what the criteria are for joining the pro level, in terms of technique, commitment, personality, and (if applicable) appearance would be helpful here. Jealousies and anger at the director start running rampant when the criteria are 'secret' and the students have to guess at why Suzy made the cut but their friend Sheila didn't. If it's spelled out ahead of time that going pro requires 90% attendance rate, availability for 3 classes a week, ownership of 3 professional costumes, weekend evening availability until 1am, and a certain level of 'commercial beauty' then people may not like it, but at least it's clear and they'll be able to see that you're being fair in applying the rules rather than choosing your favorites or whoever baked you cookies last week. It also makes it easy to point out to those who don't make it where they're falling short so they (theoretically) have the chance to correct any deficiencies whereever possible.

As for student C, I'd simply point out that the pro class is for pros. It's not simply another level of class, and readiness for a professional career is part of the criteria for entering.

If all the higher level students start thinking they should move up into the pro level class next, then you'll wind up with as many non-pros as pros, and eventually they'll start complaining about the amount of class time that's being devoted to talking about gigs and business skills and other things that don't concern them, and then you won't have a pro class at all!

One way to appease those who think the pros are working on cooler stuff than they are is to offer an "advanced" class in which you teach different, but equally cool, choreography. This provides an opportunity for those who wish to learn increasingly complex stuff to get it without feeling like they have to be in the pro class.

Thanks guys, there is some fab stuff here. Samira- you had me totally in tears!

Khari- I believed it was there, but because I took pains not to alienate them from the studio, it seems it hasn't been clear.

About age- please don't start calling me ageist or anything here. My point with that was it was her only hangup re her going pro- because it is very hard to get show bookers out here to take any dancer who isn't 18, a DD and 22 inch waist, and who wants to put themself in for that kind of bigatry?- since she discovered my top dancer is a year older that worry has fallen away for her. It never was the worry for me- the worry for me is my concerns mentioned. Please note my comment about how sad it is that people have to think like that in their forties- something I have never considered 'old' in any way. That encapsulates my opinion, if interested. I didn't make the market here, nor the shallow, superficial culture that idolises such fake images. But I don't support it and I try not to pander to it. My point about the other lady being a grandma was an indication of her life point at the mo, not a comment re age. Hope that is a little clearer for those of y'all who didn't get my point first time- sorry, English ain't my native language, sometimes I don't express well.

MRSNJ20- That is the conclusion I am coming to, though i don't have the time for it at the mo. Oh well, New Year, hopefully new schedule somewhere :)

Indigostars- I agree. Thing is, I don't have 'special time' in the class she is angling at for someone who isn't performing. That is a class solely geared towards it. We talk costumes etc, spend time discussing recent performances, all performer stuff. It would waste her time, [and she is also the sort who will yawn her way through it so we all know she is bored too :)]. I would rather she was in a class where she would take her fair slice of my attention and get her full money's worth from it, rather then being a sidelined person becaue her aims aren't the classes. I have advanced classes for those who don't want to perform, it is not like she is stuck at base level unless she is there. In fact, Lauren put it far better then I could!

Shira- theoretically I do that. Students A's class. But they never want to work hard, so their stuff never quite looks like the others. Suppose I will just have to get out the big whip and make 'em work harder!

Lauren

If all the higher level students start thinking they should move up into the pro level class next, then you'll wind up with as many non-pros as pros, and eventually they'll start complaining about the amount of class time that's being devoted to talking about gigs and business skills and other things that don't concern them, and then you won't have a pro class at all!

'Tis my worry. You put it better then I ever could.

And thanks for your thoughts and opinions all of you. It is all helpful and I really appreciate it.

To me it seems like one of the issue is that the students that are not at a certain level don't come to class enough.
Let them know that they must show up all the classes, X amount / week - not because you say so, but because it is crucial for their development.
By them coming to class much more often, they should get better. You can address their issues in class.
You can also let them know if they need extra, i.e. private instruction, etc.

My teacher - a long time ago - kept us in check, when we thought we got so much better by making us do some complicated things we could not yet do. We got the message pretty quick and humbled down again.

I also think age should be left out of there. Even if you think that's an issue, how would you talk about it without hurting someone's feelings? or how would you tell someone that they don't have the look or the body, when we always preach that this dance is about the dance itself?

Also: if someone wants to take a pro class, but not perform would that be a big issue? Maybe she just wants to learn all of that "cool" stuff, but can't handle stage, or doesn't want to deal with performing. She could still take classes (if she's at that level tenchinque-wise).

just my $.02

Hi Marianna.

Thanks for your input.

Yeah, I do have that problem with attendance. End of this year, I started making more of it, and think I had best keep doing so this year.

I absolutly adore that method of your teachers :)

Again age was Student b's concern, not mine.

Thanks!
EDT: Bah, I cannot spell.