Thread: What's with the leaning back?

Last year it was one of my dance New Years resolutions to work on my posture and especially the postural issues that were related to my upper body carriage and stiff (not to say entirely frozen) shoulders. This year, I'm hoping to build on last year's improvements and really get posture nailed. Generally things have improved beyond belief since this time last year. My arm and shoulder carriage is much, much loser and more natural and my chest is more lifted (though it could do with being more so). I'm also stronger in my lumbar region, though I do have a tendency to 'untuck' if I'm either a) working with a prop or b) rather stressed out. The rest of the time its pretty good down there.

However, the big bugbear is that I have, for no apparent reason, started to lean back when I dance. My teacher was straight on my case when I started doing this and has helped me to become more aware of it and its really noticeable in recent photographs of me performing .

What I'd like to know is if anyone can think of a physiological/anatomical reason why I might have started with the leaning. Its really upper body only, and although I may have done it before slightly, its increased as other postural things have improved.

Any thoughts?

i've seen a lot of dancers to that. like leaning back quite a bit while doing hip drops for example. it looks neat but somehow i can't go there lol. anyhoo our 'newest' prof says it's to highlight the move more.
but something tells me that's not what you're talking about?
i tend to, not really lean back, but push my hips forward a lot when i'm concentrating on certain moves, hip moves generally...

Does it happen no matter what move you're doing or only certain ones?

i've seen a lot of dancers to that. like leaning back quite a bit while doing hip drops for example. it looks neat but somehow i can't go there lol. anyhoo our 'newest' prof says it's to highlight the move more.
but something tells me that's not what you're talking about?

Nah, I'm talking just general and undirected leaning backwards. Its like my torso has suddenly decided that it would rather not be associated with my lower body. When I do it I don't feel that I'm leaning back at all but all the recent shots of me show this bizarre tilt.

I'm particularly puzzled because this phenomenon has developed as my other postural 'issues' have improved.

Does it happen no matter what move you're doing or only certain ones?

Pretty much everything, though I *think* it happens more when I consciously focus on opening my chest. It is slightly less exaggerated on my Egyptian Walk because my teacher was particularly on my case about this so I am more aware about counteracting it on this move.

Does she have you work on the Egyptian-style posture where your chest is slightly ahead of your hips? I'm just wondering if it would help to think about an *upward* direction for your chest with your shoulders relaxing slightly downward when you work on opening it, rather than an out and back (back meaning holding the shoulders back) direction. If that makes sense!

It's hard to say without seeing you, of course, but I'll try to offer you some things to think about.

One possibility is that in the process of lifting your chest you are taking it backward in addition to taking it upward. I generally ask my students to visualize the chest-lifting by pretending someone has attached a puppet string to the sternum (breastbone) and lifted straight up in the air.

However, it's necessary at the same time for a teacher to watch the students do this, because some students also throw the rib cage into lean-back position at the same time they try to lift it.

You may want to find a good ballet teacher in your area and work with her on getting some lessons for "centering", which means adjusting your sense of balance optimally. This often means asking the student to move her rib cage forward of where the student has been carrying it.

Here are some ideas to pursue:

1. Think in terms of spine position, not rib cage position. In order for your spine to be vertically aligned, your rib cage will need to be a little forward. You don't want to have your rib cage centered over your pelvis, you want it to be forward enough to let your spine be vertical. Tits over toes! The first time a ballet teacher adjusts you into this position, it may feel wrong, as if you're going to fall over forward. But if you've done the homework to choose a good teacher, trust her and try to maintain the carriage she recommends.

2. Think about how your weight is distributed over your feet. When you are standing flat-footed, your weight should be distributed evenly between the front of the foot and the back. If you're feeling it more in the heels, then you're leaning back.

3. Check your glutes frequently and make sure they're relaxed. When some people try to tuck their pelvis, they erroneously end up squeezing both glutes, which pushes the pelvis forward and therefore causes the upper body to look like you're leaning back. Generally speaking, glutes should be relaxed unless you're using them to power a specific move such as making hip bumps crisp. Are yours?

4. Check your abs frequently and make sure they're engaged except for when you're doing a move such as a stomach roll or camel that requires them to relax temporarily.

5. Some yoga poses that will help you make sure you are balancing properly include tree, dancer, and triangle.

6. Have you recently made changes to the type of shoes you wear? Going from wearing heels to wearing flats could cause this to happen if the person isn't really aware of her body alignment.

Originally Posted by khadiya

Pretty much everything, though I *think* it happens more when I consciously focus on opening my chest. It is slightly less exaggerated on my Egyptian Walk because my teacher was particularly on my case about this so I am more aware about counteracting it on this move.

As others have said, without actually seeing you, it's a bit tricky to work out what may be happening. But-

It sounds to me like you're not engaging the abs so much, and that's allowing the ribcage to drop back. If you sit upright and practise engaging the abs, you can feel when the abs kind of pull your upper torso forward.

You might also want to try thinking about lifting the chest from the back of the ribcage, rather than the front. I always use the image of huge angel wings sprouting out of your shoulders and unfolding. By lifting up from the back the *whole* ribcage lifts, and the back doesn't get compressed. Rolling the shoulders back & down, and making sure the abs are engaged are, of course, essential to maintaining the posture.

It could also be that you've been working so much on lifting your chest and keeping your arms in place that you strengthened your back muscles more than the abs... it gets uncomfortable to hold the abs "in" enough if they're not strong enough, so dancers will give into the stronger back muscles and support their torso on them. This can give a leaned back look.

Are you sticking your hips out or are you actually leaning back? Check whether your hips are right above your feet and if your torso is behind your feet.

If you are doing Egyptian posturing - I agree with Shira, think of spinal positions.

Another thing that you could think of is to think of your ankles, knees, hip and shoulders as hinges (sp?). The hinges need to be aligned in a way so they're balanced:
- ankles back
- knees ahead (of the ankle and hip joint)
- hip back (of the knee and shoulder joint)
- shoulders ahead (of the hip joint)
Think of the rest of your body as "fillers" between these (of course you're holding your posture with your muscles).. I think a lot of times dancers tend to think of the spine as straight lines rather than curves and that causes them to get ridged in their positioning.

A last thing that works is to look at a baby in a diaper.... essentially, if you stand wide and squat down - that's the same posture.....uhm.. as Egyptian. Now figure out what muscles support that posture. Arches of the feet, calves, lower quads, abs, upper back. :) We can learn a lot from babies!

Attaching pics for reference:
http://images.inmagine.com/img/goods...9/gs109009.jpg
http://www.jardinediapers.com/images...r-standing.jpg
http://workingwithchronicillness.com...aby-diaper.jpg

Wow. What terrific responses. I'm learning from each of them. This is the technique stuff I love from Bhuz!!

Can't wait to hear what's helpful.

Originally Posted by khadiya

Nah, I'm talking just general and undirected leaning backwards. Its like my torso has suddenly decided that it would rather not be associated with my lower body. When I do it I don't feel that I'm leaning back at all but all the recent shots of me show this bizarre tilt.

I'm particularly puzzled because this phenomenon has developed as my other postural 'issues' have improved.

As a teacher I see this a lot. Sometimes I think it's just a simple psychological adjustment to compensate for having a leg forward. It's particularly common in beginners doing hipdrops with the leg too far forward. Which is why I try to encourage hip drops with the feet parallel. There is no logical reason for the foot to be forward for hip drops... in fact it's very inhibiting when it comes to transitions.

From a psychological perspective, I know I tend to lean back because I want to see what my hips are doing, and perhaps also my feet. I've had to actively fight that influence, and just trust that my hips and feet are right there where they are supposed to be. It does require some activation of the upper abs to keep your chest centered as well.

Another thing that helps me is remembering the refrain "tits over toes" ;-)

Is this your general posture rather than one you adopt while dancing? If so, you will need to work on it 24/7 as it will be deeply engrained into your muscles and ligaments. Basically people with swayback posture (leaning back) need strengthen the lower abs, external obliques, hip flexors, and external hip rotators, and glutes. And they need to loosen upper back, hip flexors and calves.

Thanks all. This is fab advice - I love this in depth postural stuff.

Essentially I think that this is partly due to some kind of subconscious aversion to 'Tits over toes' and partly to do with having strangthened my upper back at the expense of my abs, which I have noticed have gotten rather puffy and not as active as they should be in the last 6 months (since my yoga class folded - grrrr).

This is something that is confined to dancing only. I am not particularly prone to this sort of posture on a day to day basis. I have a tendency to slouch and hunch (flippin' desk job) but not to lean/tilt back in the normal course of events.

I think my priority has got to be on strengthening my lower abs. My hip flexors and glutes are in pretty good nick (always room for improvement though).

I love Bhuz.

My first thought was that if you are doing hip work you might be trying to showcase it better by getting the ribs out of the way. I had another thought, but by the time I read all the other posts my CRS kicked in and now I don't know what it was. ..c:: I like the advice about thinking in terms of the spine instead of the ribcage.

i had the leaning back problem too. and it started happening after i corrected my other bad postures like locked knees and tensed shoulder and i sloughed a lot. i think probably because i cared too much to correct other stuff and i didn't think about the overall posture, just the problem area. the leaning back thing was giving me mid back pain. now i'm better. i learnt to use my tummy to help lift the chest up. and i check my posture in the mirror all the time. and when i think i'm correct i try to remember how it feels like.

i know my posture is still not perfect but considering that i had bad habits for maybe 20 years, i'm doing well! just be patient and check yourself all the time.