Thread: correcting bad technique

I have been taking lessons with my current teacher and troupe director for two and a half years now.

I decided that I would like more intense instruction, so I scheduled some private lessons with her. I learned that I have been doing one particular rib movement incorrectly for the entire time that I have been dancing. I don't recall her ever telling me to correct this before. As soon as I started doing it during our private session she stopped me immediately.

The more I've thought about this, the more irritated I've become, for several reasons. First of all, it's going to be much harder for me to do these correctly now, because the incorrect muscle memory has already been imprinted in my brain. I've always felt it's easier to learn the movement correctly the first time, than it is to unlearn bad technique.

Secondly, I've been paying class tuition for all of this time, coming regularly at least once a week and this has never caught her attention before? Isn't that why I pay for the classes? And third, her beginning students often look to her more long-term students for the correct example of executing the movement. All this time, I've been providing a bad example and not even realized it.

Does anyone have advice for this situation? She's very knowledgeable, I'm just unhappy that I wasn't corrected before.

That definitly sounds frustrating, but there may be a few more factors you should take into consideration... How many people are there usually in your class? Do your peers take their technique seriously, or are they more just there for fun and exercise (don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with just dancing for fun)? Maybe now that you've decided to take private lessons and step up your training, she'll step up the technique part.

I can relate to this experience somewhat. I dance at a studio with a very large number of classes and students, especially in the beginner level. I looove my teacher, and I'm sure she always does her best to keep an eye on everyone's technique, but that's really hard to do in a large class with a mixed student population (ie some students with no previous dance experience, some with a lot of past training). It wasn't until I got to the "advanced" level class that I felt individual technique was stressed more.

On a different note, our troupe has many performance opportunities per year, which I really love, but sometimes it seems that we spend a majority of our time working on choreography, and very little time working on technique. Coming from a ballet background, I really wish we could spend more time on the latter. To really do that, I think one would have to take more than one class a week though, and I'm sure I'm not the only one in my class that would find it hard to devote more time in the studio (although I do try to get extra practice time in at home).

Hmmm... so where's the happy medium? -I wish I knew

She might just be getting picky with you now because she senses you want it. Not all students take well to being corrected.

It's so good for me as a teacher to be reading this! Lately I've felt like my classes are focussing too heavily on choreo, and I have been letting technique get sloppy in an effort to work always on 'what comes next.'

I'm getting ready to do a pure technique session with my advanced students, where I plan to offer lots of correction, but I'm a little scared of how they'll take it, since they're not used to it.

Helps me a lot to read how you feel, because right now you could represent any one of my students! I'll do a better job offering individual correction as a result of this post.

Lauren, is it hard sometimes to tell which of your students want correction, and which don't? What do you do when a student responds poorly to it?

I grew up in a studio called the "Ballet Conservatory", so as you can imagine, I'm very used to correction, to the point where I almost crave it. Like rachelw started the thread with, I want to learn proper technique. But I can tell sometimes when not everyone in my class is really concerned with it (but like I said above, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with wanting to dance "just for fun"), and they don't really seem to want to be corrected.

Another point, in our troupe I'm really glad that individual style is stressed. I think it really comes out in our performance. I think a troupe can do a choreography together without looking like a line of identical drill team dancers. But that sense of individuality is another place where technique can be lost. For some movements it may be hard to draw a line between what's technically correct, and what's a style choice of an individual dancer...

Perizaad -- sometimes it's insanely easy to tell who doesn't want correction. I have funny stories about the ways students hide and run away when they know they're going to be corrected, but I wouldn't want individual students to recognize themselves here, so I won't tell the stories.

It's easy to tell the students who really want correction: they ask for it! They'll ask in class 'Am I doing this right?' or they'll stay after class and ask me.

The ultimate way of asking for individual correction is by taking privates, like rachelw did!

Originally Posted by rachelw

Does anyone have advice for this situation? She's very knowledgeable, I'm just unhappy that I wasn't corrected before.

I don't know how well your teacher might take correction ..g.: but you'd be doing her a huge favor if you could let her know how you feel in some way. It could be a major growth experience for her as an instructor to realize that at least some of her students crave correction and want to be certain they're practicing correct technique.

It only takes a few bad experiences (feeling you've embarassed someone in class, a student obviously looking like she felt 'picked on' and not returning!) to make a teacher really gun-shy about offering in-class correction. It's easy to swing too far the other way as a teacher, and good to be redirected.

Thanks, Lauren, its nice to hear it from the teacher's point of view too!

Thank you all for your advice.

Perizaad--Classes tend to range from four (on a dead day), to 12 or 15 if it's really packed. She does a lot of encouraging students to perform, and most do strive for that, even if they originally showed up just wanting a workout. It's a good mixture I'd say.

And I'd have to say that we have lately become more focused on choreography than we have on stressing technique. Before I joined the troupe, they used to perform every few months. Now, we're performing every few weeks (four times this month alone!). It's hard to balance the two, I agree. I'd almost prefer fewer performances in exchange for more focus on technique, at least for a while.

I hadn't considered that she might be shy about offering feedback. I grew up as an athlete, so I got feedback whether I wanted it or not. You talked to the coach before and after your race...or else. I also worked as a coach, so I learned how to give feedback at a young age. I think that experience makes me more open to accepting feedback, but also makes me tend to forget that not everyone is the same way.

I don't know how well your teacher might take correction but you'd be doing her a huge favor if you could let her know how you feel in some way. It could be a major growth experience for her as an instructor to realize that at least some of her students crave correction and want to be certain they're practicing correct technique.

Thanks for the support, Lauren. I am trying to think of the best way to do this. I think that seeking private lessons was a good start, especially since I have to drive to her for those and she's quite a ways away.

As for your students, I think that seeing who shows up to the technique sessions and who finds a way not to could go a long way toward determining who wants correction. That might be a good thing to address with those students. I'd personally, love a class like that.

I have thought about taking classes with another instructor who's a little more attentive about correction. I wouldn't want to replace the classes I'm taking now, just add to them.

Originally Posted by rachelw

I have been taking lessons with my current teacher and troupe director for two and a half years now.

I decided that I would like more intense instruction, so I scheduled some private lessons with her. I learned that I have been doing one particular rib movement incorrectly for the entire time that I have been dancing. I don't recall her ever telling me to correct this before. As soon as I started doing it during our private session she stopped me immediately.

The more I've thought about this, the more irritated I've become, for several reasons. First of all, it's going to be much harder for me to do these correctly now, because the incorrect muscle memory has already been imprinted in my brain. I've always felt it's easier to learn the movement correctly the first time, than it is to unlearn bad technique.

Is it truly bad technique or was it a different move than she was looking for at this time?
I have felt your pain and back again. Let me explain....
I first went to instructor A. I was taught a variety of moves and then went to Instructor B. Instructor B tore apart my technique. After a few years I went to instructor C and those moves I did with A...well, I found out they were not so bad. Here are a few things to remember:
1) What muscle group a move originates from, depends upon the region of dance you are learning (Greek, Turkish, Egyptian, Moroccan, Persian, Berber, Romany, etc.)
2) What may be "wrong" in one region...can be right in another. In my experience, I have found that there are actually very few "wrong" techniques.
3) There is a lot of interpretation/opinion in our dance form. One person may interpret a move one way and another a different way. The best thing is to do the move according to what your instructor is looking for at the moment.
Let me give you a few examples:(cont'd on next post)

An example for (1) is this: my Egyptian teacher had informed me that hip movements are originated from the muscles in the hips themselves. She would tell our class that one should be able to lift their foot off of the floor and complete a hip up, down, bump using only our hip muscles. Now, when I went to my Turkish and Greek instructors, they encourage me to use my legs to leverage hip movements.
An example for (2) is: Egyptian, Turkish, Greek, cabaret styles of dance; require a dancer to point her toe during transitions and movements involving the leg and foot. Romany culture, due to its ethnic and more folkloric origins; require a dancer to be more flat footed and even use the heal first in some footwork and steps. So what move might be "wrong" in one culture, may be the appropriate one in the next.
An example for (3) is: Teacher A may have learned from her teacher that a certain camel movement only involved a lower undulation of the body but Teacher B may have learned that the placement of the foot in the camel is what moves the lower body through an undulation. It may be that Instructor B had a teacher with more of a folkloric background and so therefore, interprets the move as such.
Have I confused you?! LOL!

What I am trying to say is this: Do not fret!!!! Do as your instructor says and know that later on in your dancer journey through self discovery, you may find that the way you were doing the move in the first place...well, it may be the way they do it somewhere else. Just keep an open mind.
:)

Helena,
I think what you went through sounds like it was the result of different instructors with different expectations and movement vocabularies.

If this was the first time I had studied with this teacher, then I might attribute it to that. When I go to a workshop, or take the rare class with another instructor, there are bound to be differences. But I’ve been studying with her for more than two years now and performing with the troupe, so she’s had ample time to see me execute this movement incorrectly and correct me on it. It's something she drills nearly every week.

Please don't think that I'm upset that I was told I was doing something incorrectly, or that I'm denying I did something incorrectly. I didn't simply do the move imperfectly. I did it incorrectly. My concern is that I wasn't informed of this earlier and that I've been doing this wrong now for more than two years.

I think you should just say you wouldn't mind extra corrections on stuff like what you listed.

One of my teachers had her students fill out a sheet and had us describe where we wanted to head with dance (performer, teacher, just for fun). I think it was a getting to know you activity, but it also could be that it clued her in on how she should approach the student.

Ah ,but what do you do when you see poor technique from a teacher and then watch her class all following suit?

Sigh...nothing...just nothing.....................p:: criminal isn't it?

All you can do is .....just wonder who taught the teacher

Oh, this sort of thing is so tricky for the teacher - as Lauren has pointed out so well.

First of all, all students look slightly different from each other. Body shape, musculature, personality and character, all have a part to play in the way a student dances. And in this dance we don't want our students to all be clones - good teachers want to allow the different personalities to show through. It may well be that this incorrect rib cage move she has just picked up, she originally thought was just a feature of your body type. It's a mistake on her part, but we all make mistakes.

Secondly, even in the smallish classes that your teacher is running, you don't necessarily see the detail of a student's movement. And you can't spend ages looking straight at one student in the context of a class - for a start off it would probably be very unsettling and embarrassing for the student. It may well be that she only really understood what you were doing with your ribs when she was in the private lesson and staring directly at you and only at you, with no other distractions.

If you like this teacher and you've learned well with her, then don't be too harsh on her - teachers have to take into account so many factors when they are teaching classes and to miss something like this may be frustrating for you but at least she's trying to correct it now.

I know how you feel. I developed very bad technique from a teacher who simply left me to get on with whatever I was doing, however bad it was. Yet I really wanted to get things right and would have loved to have been corrected.

Finally, like you, I had a private lesson with her and she trashed me. I was livid over her inattention and have never felt the same about her teaching since, even tho I like her personally and she is highly regarded by the community as a teacher's teacher.

And when I went to LA and had a couple of sessions with Tamra-Henna I had to throw everything out and start again anyway. T-H needs to do a teacher's certification, I'd go to anyone she approved.

Originally Posted by rachelw

Secondly, I've been paying class tuition for all of this time, coming regularly at least once a week and this has never caught her attention before? Isn't that why I pay for the classes? And third, her beginning students often look to her more long-term students for the correct example of executing the movement. All this time, I've been providing a bad example and not even realized it.

Some teachers (especially those who are uneasy about confrontation) are hesitant to correct students in group classes, because some students get upset by corrections. It can be a delicate balancing act, especially at the raw beginner level when many students are already very insecure and self-conscious.

Originally Posted by eshe

Not all students take well to being corrected.

this is so true. also, it may be, especially if you're one of the better students in the class, that the instructor doesn't want to discourage the other students. as in 'wow, she's telling amira that her hips are wrong, and amira's a way better dancer than me. i must really suck. i feel terrible! i'm never coming back!'

I think it depends on what instructors think students can handle. My most recent teacher, Azar, had no problems correcting me. And I appreciated the information and I felt like I learned something new every week. She was equally good at giving me props when I was doing something well. I liked that she was paying so much attention to me. .w.:

She was good about doing the same for all of the students, however, one woman, who had taken classes previously with the famous "only authentic teacher" (who never corrected anyone) was mortified by all of the attention.

She felt hurt when she was corrected. She didn't feel like it helped her learn. It just made her feel self conscious.

It really depends on the student.

don't blame you for being bent out of shape, but i agree that you need to let your teacher know you want to be corrected.
after a few sessions with a new teacher for us to get the feel for each other, i'll talk to her after class and say, 'i don't want to monopolize your attention in class, but please, correct me if i'm not doing what you want me to do. you won't embarrass me and i won't feel picked on.'

It can be extraordinarily difficult to offer one-on-one correction appropriately in a large class. That's one of the reasons I enjoy technique-only classes where I might focus on only two or three movements, because I get to set them to drilling and then go round and give individual feedback. I am particularly loath to call out somebody in front of the whole class, though I will do so in the highest level class I teach.

I like correction, but I prefer it one to one, especially when the work is unfamiliar. I've had two tribal lessons in my whole life, and in the first one, I was held up as an example of a person doing it wrong (due to my evil bad wrong Oriental training). I did not like that. I did not continue. Just because I am an experienced dancer doesn't mean I have no feelings, nor that I can magically copy a new style perfectly within ten seconds. It's put me off working with that teacher ever again, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Some teachers (especially those who are uneasy about confrontation) are hesitant to correct students in group classes, because some students get upset by corrections. It can be a delicate balancing act, especially at the raw beginner level when many students are already very insecure and self-conscious.

You aren't kidding there. I had one gal, a long time student no less, who I had made corrections for before with no problems, completely freak out on me for "daring to correct her since she has been dancing for so long". She not only lost it for lack of a better term, she threatened to go to my boss and complain to get me fired. Needless to say I went to my boss and told him the situation so he knew what was going on right away. What I had corrected was a simple foot placement, same thing I had already done for several others in the class. Why a "try moving your foot further in" comment set her off that way I never did find out. No one else was offended by recieving the same correction that night. However it made me leary for several months after that about making corrections and in some ways still haunts me.
The other thing that may have happened in your situation is there was the appearance at first glance of having the movement right. However when she could see how you did the move with her total attention instead of with the distraction of trying to do several things at once, she noticed some tecnical issue she hadn't caught in class. After all we teachers are only human and I don't know about anyone else when I teach I'm trying to watch how a half dozen or so people at a time move, offer tactful corrections and keep a running count/comentary about what they should be doing all the same time.

Originally Posted by Viv

However it made me leary for several months after that about making corrections and in some ways still haunts me.

Yup. This is what I meant by 'It only takes a few bad experiences (feeling you've embarassed someone in class, a student obviously looking like she felt 'picked on' and not returning!) to make a teacher really gun-shy'

Teach long enough & you'll have a few of these experiences. It's very upsetting, and it really cripples you as a teacher. That's why I truly appreciate a thread like this, so I get to hear from the quiet students who crave correction.

80% of my students are just there to have fun, bond with other women, get some exercise -- and they'd leave if they felt they were being picked apart in front of everyone. ,f:: There aren't enough 'serious' students to keep me in business.

Giving individual feedback in class is also one of things that I find really hard. In my classes, we have a 20 minute technique portion in which I try to give each student private feedback by walking around and correcting people one by one. This way students don't feel like they're the center of attenion being scrutinized. Or, if there are more students with the same issue (like straightening your legs) I tell the class to 'make sure your knees stay bend' and look people in the eye who need it most.

I also had some bad experiences with students freaking out over feedback. The strange thing is that the stundent that freaked out most is the one who was asking for feedback and more difficult stuff all the time. She didn't like it when the feedback focused on her technique (not dancing in time with the music, sloppy hipwork) instead of telling her how talented and gorgeous she was. I try to do the 'good news, bad news' technique when I give feedback. (You have beautiful arms, try to keep them straight and lifted') Some people only focus on the negative part.

Corrections are an important part of learning technique, but I let minor flaws slip by because I feel that my students should not tackle all of their problems in one class. For example, while doing a hipdrop I focus on correcting legs, the hip drop move itself and overal arms. I sometimes add advice on posture and armcontrol, but I feel it would be too much information and focusing on the hip drop is enough for now.

and there are students who you try to correct into not hurting themselves by bad technique and you're glad that they can do a basic move in the right way, be it with sloppy arms, bad posture and off-beat. Most of the time they also have a big grin on their face because they're doing something right.

I think making an example out of someone is a terrible idea in any case, positive or negative.

I'm a student only, but the way I've always approached class and correction is something a former teacher of mine told me that helped her (because I used to talk to her a lot, I'm trying to remember if this was in relation to her dealing with an abusive teacher or something with me and not being Indian, since this was an Indian dance class) : think about why you're there. I've tried centering most things in my life around that. I don't go to class to get flattered; I could get that for free, probably. I go to become a better dancer, so (not that I really did) I learned to stop caring about others and the kind of correction I receive.

I also always liked the saying "Leave your ego at the door." Obviously, don't be silly about personal attacks if they occur, but I think, for the most part, people take any corrections personally. I used to tutor someone in physics during high school, and he'd vehemently deny his answer was wrong, even if I could mathematically prove it and explain it. Eventually, he would come to begrudgingly agree with me.

I kind of wish more teachers would encourage and suggest their students think about things in those terms.

Originally Posted by indigostars

think about why you're there. I've tried centering most things in my life around that. I don't go to class to get flattered; I could get that for free, probably. I go to become a better dancer, so (not that I really did) I learned to stop caring about others and the kind of correction I receive.

Heh! It's funny, I quit a class for the same reason in the opposite direction. I was going to a class that I didn't enjoy, and ultimately decided to drop the class because I didn't see the point in paying my hard-earned money and negotiating traffic just to be made to feel bad about myself. I could probably also get that for free. ..l;,

Yeah, my teacher actually quit some class because her teacher basically made her cry. My teacher had gone through tough ballet instructors, danced ballet in NYC professionally, and found one teacher in bharatanatyam that reduced her tears every lesson. She figured she was there to dance, so she quit that teacher.

I think the sentiment works both ways.

Originally Posted by indigostars View Post
think about why you're there. I've tried centering most things in my life around that. I don't go to class to get flattered; I could get that for free, probably. I go to become a better dancer, so (not that I really did) I learned to stop caring about others and the kind of correction I receive.
Heh! It's funny, I quit a class for the same reason in the opposite direction. I was going to a class that I didn't enjoy, and ultimately decided to drop the class because I didn't see the point in paying my hard-earned money and negotiating traffic just to be made to feel bad about myself. I could probably also get that for free.

I think there's room for balance. A good instructor does not berate their students or correct them in a way that is gratuitously abusive. It's not just about sparing someone's feelings. A teacher's job is to make sure that someone understands what they're doing and you can't get it across if people are too scared to move.

I think examining your reason for being there is an important thing to do though. If you're taking a dance class just to have a good time and get a work out, then no, you're not going to want scrutiny over every hand and foot position. But if you're serious about improving yourself, getting to a professional level, or receiving a challenge, then students cannot expect hugs and sunshine from every instructor.

Like I said, I used to coach swimming and many of my kids were fairly serious athletes. My goal was to get them to swim fast, not be afraid of me. To me, that felt like wasted energy on both of our parts.

The trouble is that the majority of classes, especially at lower levels, are full of people who are sometimes struggling just to move one foot in front of the other with hips doing something else while keeping their ribcage still, for the first time in their life - and for most of them, it's a new hobby that's fun and is more about feeling better in the body they're in and learning a new skill at a very fundamental level. So the amount of critique you can give is limited. Sometimes all you want them to do is lift their pelvis or bend their supporting knee. The movement they generate will not be up to your standard yet, but they need to incorporate *one* key bit of it before they start to work on the rest.

My teacher was a big technique freak and can always point out something you could do better, but also had a rather unique ability to encourage and enable while also pointing out an area where you could improve. I'm better at the former than the latter as yet, except with moves I am skilled at and have been teaching for ages. That's why more advanced classes are harder to teach - even though you can give them tougher feedback, it takes time and experience to learn what to tell them.