Thread: When do you start teaching rhythms and musicality?

Hi,

This is a question for the teachers...and anyone else in a similar situation...

When do you start teaching rhythms and musicality to your students? How far in from when they first began? Do you embed it into your lessons after a certain amount of time, or do you wait a set amount of time before you introduce rhythms?

On another note...when do you begin teaching how to deferentiate the style of dance? e.g. beladi or Turkish....Modern Egyptian or Raks sharki...

I ask as I have been with my teacher for two years, and not once in those two years has she ever mentioned musicality or rhythms....or different styles (other than a few lessons on tribal)

We have not learned any new movements/tecnhiques since the first 10 weeks...after that it has been choreography....another choreography...then another......c::

No different styles...no new movements...no musicality...no rhythms...never even looked at drum solo (although I have independently)...she tried once for all of 10 minutes to try us with zills....

Class usually goes like this: warm up....gossip....pratice a choreography....practice another choreography...gossip...maybe if time practice another choreography....cool down

I've ended up using lots of DVDs...and when I was at last class she wanted us to practice all we knew and asked us to mirror our partners...and my partner had no idea of what an omi was....after 2 years! ,f::

Sad...I would send you my stuff..if your teacher would send me hers! I think my students want more choreo...but I have a blockage!

hmm, her choreos are very repetitive...same set of movements for a verse and then another set for a chorus...and not fast, or interesting, no layers...if I am honest....shes very much a shakira/natacha Atlas lover...or tribal....in fact the only choreography of hers i have liked has been a triabl one...whenever have seen her demonstrate them...i never think "wow" like I do with other dancers...

The good new is, you have identified something you're missing so now you can pursue it. Different teachers have different things to offer. Go forth and seek. I would say, looking back, that the worst thing I could have done would have been to expect to learn all from one teacher. I've gathered so many wonderful pearls of understanding from many different ones. And I have been able to do that even while living in a rural area. Try other teachers if available in your area, get to workshops, seek instructional DVD's that cover your latest interests and questions. See Shira's reviews of some DVD's on her site - and you can always get recommendations here on Bhuz. YouTube is also a worthwhile study, not only to study examples of the good, but also the bad and the ugly (and to stimluate your thinking about what the difference is.)
It's a banquet out there! No need to eat entirely at one restaurant.
Rosette

I'm in a bit of a deadspot for teachers/workshops...the other teacher in the area is the one who taught my teacher...and theres some kind of feud thing going on there...plus my cousin took classes with her and think must be the same with her as well...

My DVD collection is pushing 100 DVDs so far...working may way through specific ones at the moment, and I'm really looking forward to the new ones from WDNY

As far as I know theres only been one workshop in my area in the past two years...on some kind of fusion with spanish dancing...a teacher from somewhere else in the UK was invited down by the other teacher in the area who has the feud with mine...so no news ever gets through...

Hello smileandshake,

I had a similar situation to yourself when I started dancing 10 years ago. In the end, I left the teacher and bought lots of DVD's and went to workshops etc.

If you're in a deadspot, then you're doing the right thing with the DVD's but it really is worth travelling to workshops - maybe you could split travelling costs with a friend? I was on my own which made it difficult for me.

You'll learn a lot here from Bhuz, I don't know what part of the UK you are in but it's worth joining Mosaic magazine Mosaic Arabic Dance Network or Nada Welcome to NADA - Northern Arabic Dance Association to keep up with what's happening in the UK if you're not already a member.

If you can get enough people together to split costs, another idea is to sponsor another teacher from another area to come and teach a workshop, if at all viable you could do this once a month or once every couple of months (this is what I did).

I'd also regularly try googling "bellydance events &yourarea&" and see what that brings up.

If you pm your rough location, I'll see what I can do to find out some information for you.

Good luck and well done on not letting a bad experience put you off!

Nikki

Another suggestion is private lessons once or twice a month, if you can travel to a bigger area with more teachers.

Originally Posted by nikkiraqs

Hello smileandshake,

I had a similar situation to yourself when I started dancing 10 years ago. In the end, I left the teacher and bought lots of DVD's and went to workshops etc.

If you're in a deadspot, then you're doing the right thing with the DVD's but it really is worth travelling to workshops - maybe you could split travelling costs with a friend? I was on my own which made it difficult for me.

You'll learn a lot here from Bhuz, I don't know what part of the UK you are in but it's worth joining Mosaic magazine Mosaic Arabic Dance Network or Nada Welcome to NADA - Northern Arabic Dance Association to keep up with what's happening in the UK if you're not already a member.

If you can get enough people together to split costs, another idea is to sponsor another teacher from another area to come and teach a workshop, if at all viable you could do this once a month or once every couple of months (this is what I did).

I'd also regularly try googling "bellydance events &yourarea&" and see what that brings up.

If you pm your rough location, I'll see what I can do to find out some information for you.

Good luck and well done on not letting a bad experience put you off!

Nikki

Hmm none of the others in my class are interested it in other than something "fun" to do...most of them are 40/50+ and see it more as exercise/social thing than anything else. So I am kind of on my own too...I dare not mention my disatisfaction to any of the other students as 4 of them are the teacher's personal friends...

What gets me is there is no one central place to look for UK events...I have tried looking, but lots of them are very far away from where I am....I'm as far south-west as you can get without going to the Isles of Scily...

I'm trying to decide whether I should bother to sign up for classes again this term...I find myself only going for the social aspect and coming home frustrated by not learning anything...

The next nearest teacher is in Plymouth....2.5hours by train then bus...I don't drive yet.

Sounds like you need to volunteer to teach a class for her now and then!!!

Originally Posted by anala

Sounds like you need to volunteer to teach a class for her now and then!!!

Lol...umm that would not go down well...my teacher very much likes to be centre stage...and the one time I suggested doing something instead of choregraphy she decides....well...lets all do the basics again...and i mean the very basic moves...then some more choreography... AHHHH head banging on wall moment there...

although...I am a qualified teacher in my own right. ..not dance though...i think it would be called Elementary school in the States

In Level 1, at the end of a 12-week course, the students are aware of the differences in music, costuming and dance moves relative to the following styles: Egyptian classical and folkloric, Turkish, American Cabaret, and Tribal. They are also introduced to the sounds and photos of several instruments, mainly nay, doumbek, and oud. The students learn approx. 15 basic Arabic words or phrases throughout the course as well. They learn one choreo for which they are taught basic stage presence, and are introduced to improvisational dance in the third or fourth lesson.

Although I introduce the names of a few rhythms in level 1, they and associated dance moves are more the focus in level 2, generally in the students' second year of dance. These include maqsoum, beledi, saidi, and chiftitelli.

Level 3 involves a more intensive study of these and about eight other rhythms as the students create combos and mini dances for in-class performances.

Lots of fun!


Khalida

Is this a Uk thing. My teacher is proud of being egyptian style and has taken workshops with hossam Ramzy, but has never mentioned what she sees as defining egyptian style and we have never looked at different rythmns.
everything is taught through choreo, and although they are not as simple as yours, they are very BDSS inspired.

We do not do anything about different movements for rythmns, or styles as such. we may lear a folkloric dance next, but we will approach it as another choreo.

Originally Posted by khalida777

In Level 1, at the end of a 12-week course, the students are aware of the differences in music, costuming and dance moves relative to the following styles: Egyptian classical and folkloric, Turkish, American Cabaret, and Tribal. They are also introduced to the sounds and photos of several instruments, mainly nay, doumbek, and oud. The students learn approx. 15 basic Arabic words or phrases throughout the course as well. They learn one choreo for which they are taught basic stage presence, and are introduced to improvisational dance in the third or fourth lesson.

Although I introduce the names of a few rhythms in level 1, they and associated dance moves are more the focus in level 2, generally in the students' second year of dance. These include maqsoum, beledi, saidi, and chiftitelli.

Level 3 involves a more intensive study of these and about eight other rhythms as the students create combos and mini dances for in-class performances.

Lots of fun!


Khalida

:( your 12 week level 1 students are ahead of me then....sigh...

Have not had...any rhythms spoken of...stage prescence...instruments or styles...

I've had to self teach from DVDs more things that the teacher has taught...my next target is rhythms then...

Absolutely immediately! From day one!

Originally Posted by jencUK

Is this a Uk thing. My teacher is proud of being egyptian style and has taken workshops with hossam Ramzy, but has never mentioned what she sees as defining egyptian style and we have never looked at different rythmns.
everything is taught through choreo, and although they are not as simple as yours, they are very BDSS inspired.

We do not do anything about different movements for rythmns, or styles as such. we may lear a folkloric dance next, but we will approach it as another choreo.

I don't think so...I know that there are good teachers out there in the UK...just none down in Cornwall...

My teacher announced to us on the first lesson we had that she was "trained" in modern Cario style (which I had certainly never heard of before). I'm not even sure what workshops she has taken, if any, apart from she went to Tribal London last year...and only because I sent her the link.

Hmm it seems like you are in the same situation as me....how long have you been with your teacher?

We have done one tribal choreograhy and the rest have been whatever style my teacher dances in...certainly nothing "specific"....

BDSS inspired?? Oh god...please...more speed and at least initeresting to watch...

Our choreography...I find has made me very much not know how to do spins/turns/use floor space...her choreographies are very much dancing on the spot or turning in a circle on that spot...

Smileandshake, your situation sounds a lot like mine several years ago . . . so much so that I was seriously wondering if you were in my area and then I realized that you are across the Atlantic from me.

My first teacher did many of the same things that yours is doing. Same basic moves, no rhythms, no musicality, same choreographies over and over again, didn't know what an omi was, and so on. Only she had us performing in her dance company. Argh.

I now seek out private lessons whenever I can afford them, buy the hell out of some DVDS, watch a lot of You Tube videos, and hang out on Bhuz a whole helluva lot.

I embed it from the beginning, but I keep it simple at first. I try to just get the beginners used to thinking about it. I will discuss the style we are working with or will have them do the same movement with different techniques or accents. With music, I will call attention to the rhythms while we are working with drills in class and take that time to talk to them about the song, culture, and musical meanings.

This is really all to lay the groundwork for the next level. When the students start in my next level of classes, they receive more detail and we will focus on specific pieces. For example, in 2008 I spent the entire year teaching my 2nd level class each of the main rhythms, their common uses and origins, and traditional steps (if any) that are related to that rhythm.

day one, musicality & rhythm are embedded in the class from day one. sagat are required in all my classes & students start playing day one--to help them understand the music better. I use lots of other techniques for teaching this as well--I teach counting, I teach listening, I teach the names & sounds of the instruments....

Originally Posted by smileandshake

:( your 12 week level 1 students are ahead of me then....sigh...

Have not had...any rhythms spoken of...stage prescence...instruments or styles...

I've had to self teach from DVDs more things that the teacher has taught...my next target is rhythms then...

Aw, you sound discouraged. It's great that you're on Bhuz, you'll learn a lot here :)

Have you spoken with your teacher privately re the knowledge and skills you would like to acquire and develop? As a teacher, I appreciate it very much when students are respectful and upfront about any concerns or requests they might have.

Good luck and happy shimmies!


Khalida

Originally Posted by Albertina

Smileandshake, your situation sounds a lot like mine several years ago . . . so much so that I was seriously wondering if you were in my area and then I realized that you are across the Atlantic from me.

My first teacher did many of the same things that yours is doing. Same basic moves, no rhythms, no musicality, same choreographies over and over again, didn't know what an omi was, and so on. Only she had us performing in her dance company. Argh.

I now seek out private lessons whenever I can afford them, buy the hell out of some DVDS, watch a lot of You Tube videos, and hang out on Bhuz a whole helluva lot.

Lol, no the UK...seems like I am not the only one to have this happen then...nor will be the last...I don't see why people start teaching if they are not prepared enough for when their students need to be extended...I'm a school teacher and I know that you can't expect a child to sit there having finished everything, doing nothing...

Dance company? You know thats very similiar to what my teacher did...Our classes were first through a local college, then once she had us for a year doing that she decided she wanted to run the classes by herself through the college's own dance studio (before that we were in a huge school hall). Then it got even worse...then all we did was the same choreographys over and over....2 hours of it..one choreography...then the next one, etc...non stop apart from random gossip...i swear some classes we spent 30 mins sometimes around that room...most of the others could not even do the choreographies if she was not in front of them, whith them all following like sheep...nothing is taught as combinations, just from the start to finish...and its sooooo repetitive...same sets of movements...

I have only seen 2 other students from the 12 of us ever choreograph something of their own...and it took them more than a year to do...whereas I within 13 lessons had written my own choreography (althogh I did have a lot of experience with dance clips before that)

I think I must also point out...one of those awful butterfly tops is a solid part of her dance wear.....w.:

I have bought loads of DVDs...but not once have I ever learnt a choreography from one...my teacher has put my off learning somebody else's work

Hmm I've just discovered the teacher I thought was in Plymouth has now in fact relocated to London...

Originally Posted by khalida777

Aw, you sound discouraged. It's great that you're on Bhuz, you'll learn a lot here :)

Have you spoken with your teacher privately re the knowledge and skills you would like to acquire and develop? As a teacher, I appreciate it very much when students are respectful and upfront about any concerns or requests they might have.

Good luck and happy shimmies!


Khalida

Thanks Khalida


Hmm I sound a bit...flat and down with it all to be honest...I've not signed up for her next set of classes yet which start next week...I'm not sure I want to have to pay again to just feel like I have done nothing...
Yeah I love Bhuz, have been lurking around without registering for a while...theres lots of discussion and opinion on this website and everyones got their views.

Yes I have emailed her/spoken to her...

I don't want to sound horrible, but its too much choreography for us to handle. Not many in the class even know the current choreos all the way through, they simply copy you or whoever is in front of them. Take you away from the front and it would descend into chaos if one single person did not know the full dance.
I'm sorry, but technique-wise, I do not think we have learnt anything more than when we were in week 10. I think if the choreographies we know were disregarded, we would be at the same level as the girls from the College course.
Its been a year and a half almost and we can't do anything but those moves and your choreographies.
Yes we need a technique refresh, but we need to do something other than choreo. I feel like we aren't progressing anywhere because all we are doing is copying you.

and her response was basically that what the teacher was there for, to be followed/copied, and thats how she learned...and that everyone would be going over the basics again...and if I chose not to come in September then she would assume I was either lucky enought to go to America or Egypt...or working by myself.
Dance by numbers is like an art teacher giving every child a "paint by numbers" every single lesson...the child doesn't learn anything from it and nor does the teacher.

Sound sto me like learning some of the choreo's on the dvd's would only serve to help you learn more.

While your teacher is 'your teacher', she certainly doesn't 'own' the dancing you and you are free to learn whatever choreo you see on a dvd. From the sounds of what you're saying, your teacher hasn't gone much past beginner stage, if at all.

Because you're so far away from other teachers who can help you, the dvd's are you're only recourse for obtaining some kind of higher level of knowledge and I say "go for it!"

There are also many rhythms dvd's out too, which will up your knowledge of that area as well. Some dancers are bringing out dvd's of particular styles, so keep eyes out for those.

You sound pretty keen, so don't let anyone hold you back from learning elsewhere, even if it has to be dvd's for a while :)

I use ME music from day one and guide the students even when they only have a couple of moves how to interpret it (we use improv for the first 8 weeks). On week 4 I formally introduce rhythms as in I play a range of common ones and we work on fitting combinations into the phrase. I start and with most classes, the students also make up combinations by the end of the session.

Through the first 8 weeks I make sure the students are exposed to a range of styles from dancers from Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, North America and Australasia via video and also show them a range of folkloric dance.

Sounds like your teacher is taking a very easy path for her - 10 weeks of technique then gossip and choreos. I'd love to be able to get away with this - just kidding. But designing ongoing lessons does take significant time and energy. Maybe she does it have it to spare - or maybe she has no idea what she isn't doing. Can you talk to her? Are there other teachers you could also go to?

Originally Posted by smileandshake

My DVD collection is pushing 100 DVDs so far...working may way through specific ones at the moment, and I'm really looking forward to the new ones from WDNY

That's a huge collection! Do you actually have time to work through them? I know with some of mine (such as Shareen's) I have worked 6 months on a single DVD. Careful you don't get into the habit of collecting and watching only once ..g.:

Originally Posted by smileandshake

When do you start teaching rhythms and musicality to your students? How far in from when they first began? Do you embed it into your lessons after a certain amount of time, or do you wait a set amount of time before you introduce rhythms?

I use a CD by Mary Ellen Donald for the warmup at the beginning of each class, starting with the very first night of class that beginners are with me. I sometimes use ayyoub, sometimes walking maqsoum, depending on which music I will be using over the course of the 7-week session. I use other rhythms at level 2 and above.

Many beginning belly dance students do not have a musical background, so I introduce the rhythm at the very elementary level, explaining they should listen for a deep bass "doom" sound and a higher-pitched treble "tec" sound. So the very first thing I do, the first night of class, is to use walking to the beat as my warmup. The thing I like about using ayyoub is that there is always a "doom" on the beat, and always filled with "tecs" between the beat. This way, the first night of class I can first have them say the rhythm with me: "DOOM tec-a DOOM tec, DOOM teca DOOM tec," and once they've got it I can have them start walking to it, with instructions to place a foot on the floor with every "doom".

In subsequent weeks, in addition to walking (which we still do) I can add hip lifts/drops, hip bumps, etc. to this warmup instead of just walking.

EVERY week, I re-tell them the name of the rhythm, and review having them chant it with me. I also tell them every week how a musician would count it ("ONE and-a TWO and, ONE and-a TWO and." I don't expect them to remember any of this the first time they hear it, but if I repeat it every week they'll start to absorb it.

In my experience, teachers who teach only basic moves and choreography do that because that's all they themselves know. Often, such teachers either: 1) Took classes from teachers who were themselves very limited in skills, or 2) Quit classes after the first 8 weeks and proclaimed themselves sufficiently qualified to teach others. Either way, they haven't sought continuing education from other sources.

My advice: quit wasting your money on a class that is not providing what you are looking for. You're not going to change this teacher.

Here's an article on my web site that offers some ideas on how to deal with a situation where you're not able to find a local teacher with the skills to teach what you're looking for:

Learning To Belly Dance: If No Local Teacher, Or Wanting More Knowledge

Originally Posted by Veil_Dancer

Sound sto me like learning some of the choreo's on the dvd's would only serve to help you learn more.

While your teacher is 'your teacher', she certainly doesn't 'own' the dancing you and you are free to learn whatever choreo you see on a dvd. From the sounds of what you're saying, your teacher hasn't gone much past beginner stage, if at all.

Because you're so far away from other teachers who can help you, the dvd's are you're only recourse for obtaining some kind of higher level of knowledge and I say "go for it!"

There are also many rhythms dvd's out too, which will up your knowledge of that area as well. Some dancers are bringing out dvd's of particular styles, so keep eyes out for those.

You sound pretty keen, so don't let anyone hold you back from learning elsewhere, even if it has to be dvd's for a while :)

Hmm its not that my teacher "owns my dancing" its that constantly doing choreography has put me off...wanting to learn choreography.

Although since I have had Xmas off class...and some weeks before that, away from her class, I have been more interested in attempting some from a DVD. I really like Amar Gamal's DVDs for instance, because of how she goes through the combinations completely separately to the choreography...so unlike my teacher had...we just learnt choreo from start to end, not in combination form.

I am keen ..g.:...even if my family treat it like a joke and just don't get it...its actually the first dance training I have done

Yes I have noticed the particular styles coming out....e.g Rayna Renees new ones :)

Originally Posted by kashmir

That's a huge collection! Do you actually have time to work through them? I know with some of mine (such as Shareen's) I have worked 6 months on a single DVD. Careful you don't get into the habit of collecting and watching only once ..g.:

Not really...some of them are performance DVDs or beginner level things.

lol some of my DVDs do sit on the shelf for a while...although I go through phases of wanting to do something in particular...or specifically want to look at a certain technique...a few days ago I spent some time watching Veil with Aziza and then followed it by Bellydance with veil by Sarah Skinner...which instantly inspired me, I'm very much a visual learner most of the time.

I was actually in the mood to choreograph veil work to a specific song...don't laugh pls...."I'm alive" by Celine Dion...normally Hakim's more my thing...and not a fan of Celine...but it fit my mood...and hey I wanted to use Aziza's "helicopter" in there. and hey....none of it repeated sets of moves like my teachers choregraphies :)

There are some DVDs I come back to again and again....Jenna's Next Level is one...I was looking at her turns section because I am fully aware I am too stationary and do not use space enough.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

In my experience, teachers who teach only basic moves and choreography do that because that's all they themselves know. Often, such teachers either: 1) Took classes from teachers who were themselves very limited in skills, or 2) Quit classes after the first 8 weeks and proclaimed themselves sufficiently qualified to teach others. Either way, they haven't sought continuing education from other sources.

My advice: quit wasting your money on a class that is not providing what you are looking for. You're not going to change this teacher.

Here's an article on my web site that offers some ideas on how to deal with a situation where you're not able to find a local teacher with the skills to teach what you're looking for:

Learning To Belly Dance: If No Local Teacher, Or Wanting More Knowledge

My teacher said she had taken 8 years of classes...but it certainly didn't show...she also said she spent time working in a local hotel teaching the basics to guests as a fun activity for them to do....it seems she doesn't know how to go any further...

Thank you Shira and everyone else who has contributed and for your advice!

I'm going to follow your advice and actually take that step that I've been considering for a while, and not sign up for classes again. Theres no point me paying to feel down & frustrated or just to spend half an hour of a class each week gossiping...and not learn anything but repetitive choreo.

I guess if i can find the money (just finished uni = skint + job hunting) then maybe will be seeing me at workshops I can find near enough and if not Raks Britania this year...then maybe next year I will be there....

and of course...expanding my DVD collection with more goodies

Just spotted this thread, so apologies if this info is tardy, but doesn't Afra Al-kahira run an annual event (Celebrating Dance??) in Devon? Which I *know* isn't Cornwall, but is closer than Raqs B or some of the other events would be. Afra's website is: Afra al Kahira - International Teacher & Performer of Oriental Dance

I have heard through the grapevine (via a former student) that there is a dearth of teachers in the South West, which is a real shame...