Thread: Teaching from a video

Okay, this is a regular member posting anonymously because I don't know if the instructor in question reads Bhuz.

I'm banging my head against my keyboard here. She's a lovely dancer and has a *great* style that's different from other instructors in town. So why is she teaching from a video? And I don't mean just bits and pieces--all the combos, and apparently, the choreo. I happen to already own the video and I cannot bring myself to pay someone to teach me material I already have. Not to mention the copyright issues, lord. The problem is, the pickins are slim in my area, teacher-wise, and I don't want to alienate her by pointing these things out to her--the best I can do is simply not attend her class while she's working on this stuff. But then she wonders why I'm not coming. I also think she's setting herself up to get a bad reputation, and her students will be looked down on because of it.

How would *you* tell someone you didn't want to piss off that you think what they're doing is, well, wrong? I really want to work with this lady in the future--like I said, she has a great style all her own and it'd be a kick to learn that from her. She's also pretty removed from most of the drama in town, which is a biiiiig plus to me.

Appreciate any advice, and thanks for letting me vent.

Do you know for a fact that she hasn't contacted the maker of the dvd and obtained permission to teach the material for profit?

As to not wanting to pay for something you already have -- maybe you could just approach her after the other students have left, tell her that you already know this material and ask her if you can slide your registration fee to the next session. Unless there is something in the studio/community center contract where she teaches that disallows this, she might be agreeable, especially if you mention how much you admire her style and hope to learn from her in the future.

Why don't you ask if you can learn whatever it is you like specifically about her style? I imagine that would be quite flattering

Originally Posted by kat

approach her after the other students have left, tell her that you already know this material and ask her if you can slide your registration fee to the next session.

Good answer! I really like this approach.

Originally Posted by kat

Do you know for a fact that she hasn't contacted the maker of the dvd and obtained permission to teach the material for profit?

As to not wanting to pay for something you already have -- maybe you could just approach her after the other students have left, tell her that you already know this material and ask her if you can slide your registration fee to the next session. Unless there is something in the studio/community center contract where she teaches that disallows this, she might be agreeable, especially if you mention how much you admire her style and hope to learn from her in the future.

No, I don't know for a fact that she's teaching the dancer's material without permission. That's actually the least of my problems with this. I figure copyright issues are up to her to resolve.

I can't say I *know* the material--I have the dvd, and I don't like it, so telling her I know it wouldn't work. She has admitted that the moves taught on this video challenge her own limits.

I dunno, am I overrreacting here? Maybe I just need to stay away until she gets back to teaching her own stuff? I want to learn *her* style, and have said I admire it *repeatedly*. It just doesn't seem to register, for some reason. You'd think it would!

Originally Posted by indigostars

Why don't you ask if you can learn whatever it is you like specifically about her style? I imagine that would be quite flattering

I'm considering this approach. Privates can get expensive, but heck, it's better than attending a class you don't like, or not attending at all! And avoids the whole topic of whether it's a good idea to teach video material.

I was at a hafla about a year and a half ago and one group was doing a choreography from a Hadia video and another performer did the entire Jillina #1 choreography. Neither acknowledged where their choreography came from!
I didn't say anything, but I wanted to.

Well, you know I get e-mails from people asking me where they can get the CD with the music for the choreography on my Lebanese style DVD so their class can perform it!

a) it's not a choreo, I improvised around the combos I teach in that video
b) none of them asked me for permission first

And these are only the ones who actually write - I am sure there are more people out there who teach the material from my video.
But well, what am I supposed to do? Write back and call them bloody criminals and forbid them to do it?

I'm all for copyright and stuff, but one has to be realistic. We all teach things that we learned SOMEWHERE. Be it in class, a workshop or from a video. We didn't just suck our knowledge out of our fingers.
I also teach stuff that I learned from videos, but I make sure to change and work on it so that it becomes "mine".

Teaching the exact material from a video is certainly not very original. And I too would feel kind of cheated if I was the student in this class. So it's certainly good to let the teacher know it.

MEISSOUN

I noticed around me that some groups at previous haflas have acknowledged where they got the choreography from, be it video or a workshop, while others did not, and I REALLY recognized their dance because it was from a video. .w.:

On a side note, what do we think about teachers/students who use part of a choreography. I think they should still give credit, but is it "better" to at least make changes if planning on performing it.

Originally Posted by barb

I was at a hafla about a year and a half ago and one group was doing a choreography from a Hadia video and another performer did the entire Jillina #1 choreography. Neither acknowledged where their choreography came from!
I didn't say anything, but I wanted to.

Yikes! I was planning on teaching myself a solo choreography from a video... is that such a bad thing? :(

For a beginner like me, I thought it would be such an exploit... of course I didnt plan on not telling where I got it from!

Originally Posted by amity166

Yikes! I was planning on teaching myself a solo choreography from a video... is that such a bad thing? :(

For a beginner like me, I thought it would be such an exploit... of course I didnt plan on not telling where I got it from!

It's not a bad thing at all, to learn a choreo from a video! Why buy them, otherwise? No, the issue here is teaching material from a video to a class who is paying *you* to learn somebody else's material. For one thing, it may violate copyright if you don't have the DVD instructor's permission to teach the material, for another--as Meissoun said, it's not very original.

So learn with confidence, Amity!

Maybe you could just casually mention the video the next time you talk to your instructor-just ask casually if the class is still working on "the routine from So and So's video" This lets her know you know, and then you can judge her reaction. If she says yes, this is the perfect time to politely say "let me know when that is done, I already have the video at home, so I will use this as a break to catch up on some other things, until the class moves on" If she asks why, just tell her you have the video, didn't like it, and are only interested in her style. I think the key is to act very nonchalant about the whole situation. If she seems to be offended, just tell her you think her personal style is so enchanting that you can't bear to dance anything less. Good luck!

Originally Posted by amity166

Yikes! I was planning on teaching myself a solo choreography from a video... is that such a bad thing? :(

For a beginner like me, I thought it would be such an exploit... of course I didnt plan on not telling where I got it from!

It's not a bad thing at all. Just make sure that if you perform it at a hafla, workshop show or student showcase -- anywhere there's a program or announcer -- you give credit to the choreographer.

I think doing other people's choreos is a great way to get your feet wet as a performer. Just give credit, that's all. And don't teach it to others without the permission of the original artist!

I saw someone perform a Jillina choreo at Rakassah (the one to Warda). I was kind of annoyed that I called and called and called, and couldn't get a spot in Rak for me or my students to do MY original choreography, but this dancer got a slot to perform a video that I, and most of the audience I'm sure, knew by heart.

My students perform choreo's from videos all the time at my student showcase, but there is a program and the choreographer is properly credited.

MicaMica has a great solution.

I just can wrap my mind around teaching students a choreo that I got from a video or workshop without proper credit or permission. Sometimes if I learn a choreo at a workshop, I'll teach a combination or two from it, but always telling the students who I learned it from and when (I think it sets a good example for them to know that I seriously continue my education). And I would never teach anything even close to the whole choreography.

I do like micamica's as well. I think it gets your point across withoiut being overly confrontational.

I should clarify--the instructor has been very upfront about where she's getting the material, she's not trying to hide it.

That said, I like micamica's solution too. It lets her know where I'm coming from without sounding like I'm passing judgement.

Well, I'm actually teaching one of my classes some of the combinations from Keti Sherif's A-Z Advanced Combinations.

I checked before I started to teach them that no-one had learned them already. And I remind them every week that these are not mine, they are Keti Sherif's and where they can buy the DVD so they can learn the rest.

The reasons I'm teaching them are:
1) they get to learn a different style from my own - which they're enjoying
2) it's given me a rest from coming up with new stuff plus some inspiration at a time when I was feeling a bit jaded

And the result is that when Keti Sherif comes to teach next week in nearby Brighton she's going to have several of my students in her workshops who are now big fans of hers as a result of the classes. In addition, several of them have bought the DVD. So my sessions of teaching her combinations have acted as a sampler for my students and an advertisement for Keti Sherif - much more than if I'd just told them about her work.

Originally Posted by Sockpuppy

I dunno, am I overrreacting here? Maybe I just need to stay away until she gets back to teaching her own stuff? I want to learn *her* style, and have said I admire it *repeatedly*. It just doesn't seem to register, for some reason. You'd think it would!

You don't say whether this is a regular habit of hers (teaching material from videos) or just something she's doing for a particular set of classes. You also don't indicate how her classes are set up -- are they individual classes on a drop in basis, or multi-week sessions for which you pay a single registration?

My own classes are the latter and the classes (and a little bit about what will be taught) are listed in the community center brochure published 3 times a year. This means my class plans for a particular session are set in stone about 3-6 months prior to the class actually happening. I turned in fall plans in early June and will turn in plans for the January - May sessions in September, so I'm usually planning 6 months to a year in advance of the actual class . My classes are group classes, and from how your original question was formulated, I suspect hers are too. If so, why would you expect her to change her class plans for an existing group session just because one student didn't like the content?

Believe me, I do understand and sympathize with your frustration, but think you need to look at it from her point of view. This is the class she planned (and no matter where the content came from, it ain't easy putting together a class plan and then executing it) and changing her entire plan, for the current session at least, simply isn't usually an option.

Now, if you are talking about a class where you are the only student -- a private lesson -- that would be different. But then you would have (or should have) talked to her about what you wanted to learn in that private lesson with enough lead time for her to prepare a lesson plan tailored to your wants and needs. Then if the plan didn't meet those wants and needs you have a real gripe.

Originally Posted by sunshine

Well, I'm actually teaching one of my classes some of the combinations from Keti Sherif's A-Z Advanced Combinations.

I checked before I started to teach them that no-one had learned them already. And I remind them every week that these are not mine, they are Keti Sherif's and where they can buy the DVD so they can learn the rest.

The reasons I'm teaching them are:
1) they get to learn a different style from my own - which they're enjoying
2) it's given me a rest from coming up with new stuff plus some inspiration at a time when I was feeling a bit jaded

And the result is that when Keti Sherif comes to teach next week in nearby Brighton she's going to have several of my students in her workshops who are now big fans of hers as a result of the classes. In addition, several of them have bought the DVD. So my sessions of teaching her combinations have acted as a sampler for my students and an advertisement for Keti Sherif - much more than if I'd just told them about her work.

I'm also teaching my class a choreography using Keti's combos. So I taught them the combos that we're using. Some of them I've changed and some are the same as Keti demonstrates. Several of the ladies have gone and purchased the DVD for themselves, to practice at home. I think Keti is awesome - and so do my students. I'm in the process of getting my personal certification for the basic combos and plan to get the teacher certification after that.

Originally Posted by Sockpuppy

I should clarify--the instructor has been very upfront about where she's getting the material, she's not trying to hide it.

That said, I like micamica's solution too. It lets her know where I'm coming from without sounding like I'm passing judgement.

That makes me feel very differently about the whole thing. We've had lots of discussions about this on Bhuz, and I know there are some teachers who believe that attending a workshop or buying a video gives them the right to re-teach the choreo, and some choreographers who are perfectly OK with that.

(where's the little shrugging smiley?)

So that takes the ethical part out and just leaves you with a session of choreo you're not interested in. That's much easier to handle.

Originally Posted by kat

You don't say whether this is a regular habit of hers (teaching material from videos) or just something she's doing for a particular set of classes. You also don't indicate how her classes are set up -- are they individual classes on a drop in basis, or multi-week sessions for which you pay a single registration?

She offers both. As to whether this is a regular habit, I don't know, as I've only been taking class with her since February. At the first class, it was all her own stuff. I learned some fabulous moves I'd never seen before and was looking forward to more.

If so, why would you expect her to change her class plans for an existing group session just because one student didn't like the content?

Ack, I'm seriously not expressing myself well. I shouldn't have said "how do I tell her this is wrong" but rather "how the heck do I stay friendly with her while avoiding this particular content." I *don't* expect her to change her class plans for me, I just want to find some way to convey to her that her style is great and I would love to resume class with her when she gets back to it.

ETA: I hope this *isn't* a pattern for her, because I'll be really disappointed if it is!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

So that takes the ethical part out and just leaves you with a session of choreo you're not interested in. That's much easier to handle.

LOL! As usual, Lauren, you've broken the problem down to its essence, and yeah, put that way, it is easier to handle.

I have sent her a note asking about her private rate.

I have performed at events in which there were other performers who performed choreographies off of videos. For example at a particular event in which I won't name, there was a dancer who did Norhan Sherif's choreography for Hazer Fazer. I don't really perform other peoples' choreographies, but I happened to notice that and she did credit Norhan as the choreographer which was good. This is slightly off topic, if you pay for an instructional video (and of course by being "instructional" it is understood that you can use the choreography,) then do you need to credit the person? By paying for the video doesn't that give you the right to use the choreography without crediting the person especially if that is the intended usage of the video? Perhaps this question is neither here nor there and doesn't apply to me. Somehow this thread sparked my curiousity.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It's not a bad thing at all. Just make sure that if you perform it at a hafla, workshop show or student showcase -- anywhere there's a program or announcer -- you give credit to the choreographer.

I think doing other people's choreos is a great way to get your feet wet as a performer. Just give credit, that's all. And don't teach it to others without the permission of the original artist!

Originally Posted by ChristinaRizkallah

This is slightly off topic, if you pay for an instructional video (and of course by being "instructional" it is understood that you can use the choreography,) then do you need to credit the person? By paying for the video doesn't that give you the right to use the choreography without crediting the person especially if that is the intended usage of the video?

No- buying a book doesn't give you the right to claim you wrote it. Buying the video/DVD/doing the workshop doesn't give you the right to claim you did all the work of making up that choreography.

Originally Posted by ChristinaRizkallah

This is slightly off topic, if you pay for an instructional video (and of course by being "instructional" it is understood that you can use the choreography,) then do you need to credit the person? By paying for the video doesn't that give you the right to use the choreography without crediting the person especially if that is the intended usage of the video? Perhaps this question is neither here nor there and doesn't apply to me. Somehow this thread sparked my curiousity.

Common courtesy, if nothing else.

Yes, by purchasing the video, IMHO, you do have the right to perform it whenever/wherever you please. That doesn't mean the same thing as claiming the choreography as your own. To do that you would have needed to purchase the copyright from the holder, and that isn't done by purchasing the dvd (or else we'd all own the copyright to the Harry Potter books, wouldn't we?).

And anyway, if you don't credit the choreographer, and an audience member recognizes the routine, won't that reflect badly on you? Who needs that?

Originally Posted by ChristinaRizkallah

IThis is slightly off topic, if you pay for an instructional video (and of course by being "instructional" it is understood that you can use the choreography,) then do you need to credit the person? By paying for the video doesn't that give you the right to use the choreography without crediting the person especially if that is the intended usage of the video? Perhaps this question is neither here nor there and doesn't apply to me. Somehow this thread sparked my curiousity.

My own take: if you purchase an instructional video, you have the right to perform the choreography, but not to teach it unless you get permission to teach it. (And some choreographers do give permission.)

I do feel there's an ethical requirement to credit the choreographer if the situation provides an opportunity. Some shows have printed programs or announcements that provide an opportunity to credit the choreographer, others don't. I'm ok with the lack of crediting if the show structure doesn't provide an opportunity to do it, but if the opportunity exists, it should be done.

My instructor and I often attend the same workshops. So when she teaches a combination or part of a choreo from a workshop we both attended, I know that she is not copying someone's creative endeavors but internalizing it and using it to teach her students a different approach to interpreting the music. And what I find is that we all bring home something different from the same workshop or the same video.

I've performed choreographies that I learned at workshops or from videos. In all cases the instructor stressed that the choreography was the student's to use in whole or part. In fact, I've never been to a workshop where attendees were told explicitly that they could not use the material covered. In fact, at many workshops the instructors acknowledge that there are many teachers there who pass the combos or choreos on to their own students.

For those of us who don't live "over there" or who don't live in LA or NY how the heck are we to grow and learn as dancers and as teachers?

What do we go to workshops for or buy instructional dvds for? Just to say we've been there, done that?

Souzan *who appreciates everything!*

Originally Posted by *Shira*

My own take: if you purchase an instructional video, you have the right to perform the choreography, but not to teach it unless you get permission to teach it. (And some choreographers do give permission.)

I do feel there's an ethical requirement to credit the choreographer if the situation provides an opportunity. Some shows have printed programs or announcements that provide an opportunity to credit the choreographer, others don't. I'm ok with the lack of crediting if the show structure doesn't provide an opportunity to do it, but if the opportunity exists, it should be done.

agree 100%.

something to remember when a newer dancer at a hafla performs an uncredited choreography: she simply might not realize that she should credit the source. if she's new, and her teacher isn't on top of things, it might not have occurred to her. i'll cut baby dancers a lot of slack.
but when a local instructor who fancies herself a mover and shaker got up with her troupe and did Jillina's IAMED drum solo without credit, there was much shaking of heads in the audience. on the plus side, it was better than her own choreographies.

Originally Posted by melania

From your original post, these things make it sound like you definitely feel it's wrong to do what she's doing.

Well, around here it really is considered bad form to teach video material to the extent that this instructor is. While I understand what people on this thread are saying about needing to use the resources available to us to learn and grow, I do have to wonder: why should students pay someone to teach video material when they can just go buy the video itself? And in this particular case--the instructor only recently purchased the video and has confessed to me that she's having a hard time with the material herself. So she's teaching something she's barely competent herself at executing.

But I agree with what a lot of others have said, it's how we all learn and improve, by challenging ourselves with a style not our own.

I don't disagree with this.