Thread: Muscle engagement in Turkish pelvic lift/drop?

Yes, it's time for another exciting technique and anatomy question!

I've been working lately on picking up some Turkish-style dance, and consequently I've been practising the pelvic lift/drop movement that's used in Turkish Oriental and Romany dancing.

I had been executing it the way I would have an Egyptian-style pelvic tuck (i.e. with a crisp contraction in the lower abs) but I've noticed that this looks a bit different from the way Turkish-style dancers do it. Now I'm wondering if the Turkish movement is perhaps driven mainly by the psoas, with less engagement in the lower abs.

In her Turkish Belly Dance DVD Artemis Mourat says that the movement is done by contracting the lower abs *up*, not *in*, but I'm not sure exactly how to execute that. So, any further insight into the mechanics of the movement would be greatly appreciated!

In Turkish, I focus on the *drop* rather than the *lift*. I realize that's different from how Artemis teaches it: I do a "12:00 down" rather than her "12:00 up." I don't mean to disagree with her, she's obviously much better versed in this style than I am... but for me and my students, doing a pelvic drop on the beat seems to give more of the look that I see in the Turkish and Romani dancers, without that risk of thrusting.

I definitely use my hip flexors, and there's also some light engagement in my lower abs. I'm holding my pelvis in a slightly-more-tucked-than neutral position, and releasing from there to get the drop. When I go fast, it just feels like more of a rhythmic rocking movement of the pelvis.

You don't mention it, but for anyone else reading -- at all costs, avoid engaging the glutes so you don't get that forward thrust. The tops of your thighbones need to move hardly at all, the pelvis rocks on its axis rather than moving forward and back. There might be a bit of engagement of some muscles near the top of the hipbones, on either side of your tailbone, but NOT the butt or upper thighs in back. (upper thighs in front, perhaps).

My "Turkish" orientation for a drop is to lift from the lower back and release. I think lift lift, but my focus is on the lower back..this results in a drop drop of the pelvis. It doesnt result in any back problems (for me) as the movement is very small. When done very fast it becomes a Lebanese shimmy...at least this is what I was taught by Margo Abdo O'Dell

Hey, this is a very interesting question :)

The main difference is in the base posturing of Egyptian and Turkish style and therefore causes the movements to be generated differently.

Whereas Egyptian base posture is tucked "back" from the abs, Turkish is tucked "forward" from the inside of the thighs and top of the hamstrings. This causes you to already be "lifted" and your pelvic to be tilted upwards in base posture for Turkish (this is why Turkish dancers look like they are leaning back - which they are not). This is something that is inherited from the Turkish folk dances where the feet had to be ahead of the body to move freely and therefore move faster in the line dances. Knees are bent, weight is on the front part of the feet, chest is lifted away from the hip.

From my understanding the movement you are asking about is generated by releasing the pelvic bone down through releasing some of the tension in the inner thighs. The accent is on the down - the return to "neutral" causes the hip to come up, but there is no accent involved on the up.

If you are going to encorporate this movement in Egyptian posturing - it will look different. Whereas in Turkish posture it's like you are dropping "down between your legs", this is not achievable in Egyptian posture unless you release the abs that are maintaining the pelvic to be in posture. It turns into a "Raqia Hassan ab pop" instead with a pull further in in the abs on the "and-a" and then hitting the accent on the out on the count....speaking of strict concepts, of course. There are many modifications that can be done.

For example, if you in Egyptian posture sit more into the posture and allow your legs to come out in front of you you can generate a similar movement by letting the weight of the leg cause the pelvic bone to react in a similar way.

The difference in what the movement looks like comes from how the posture is achieved, not from what direction you do the movement. Whereas Egyptian posture utilizes a back and in positioning of the hip and abs, Turkish posture utilizes a forward and up positioning of the hip and thighs. I informally refer to this as "holding the tennisball with the inside of your thighs".

Hope this helps.

DaVid

In Turkish, I focus on the *drop* rather than the *lift*. I realize that's different from how Artemis teaches it: I do a "12:00 down" rather than her "12:00 up." I don't mean to disagree with her, she's obviously much better versed in this style than I am... but for me and my students, doing a pelvic drop on the beat seems to give more of the look that I see in the Turkish and Romani dancers, without that risk of thrusting.

I definitely use my hip flexors, and there's also some light engagement in my lower abs. I'm holding my pelvis in a slightly-more-tucked-than neutral position, and releasing from there to get the drop. When I go fast, it just feels like more of a rhythmic rocking movement of the pelvis.

You don't mention it, but for anyone else reading -- at all costs, avoid engaging the glutes so you don't get that forward thrust. The tops of your thighbones need to move hardly at all, the pelvis rocks on its axis rather than moving forward and back. There might be a bit of engagement of some muscles near the top of the hipbones, on either side of your tailbone, but NOT the butt or upper thighs in back. (upper thighs in front, perhaps).

I generally try and do it the way that Lauren describes.

I also personally find it helpful to think slightly less about muscle engagement but instead to form a picture in my head of the slight movement/shape my tail bone makes when I do it. I find this prevents an over-focus on the abs, but that's just me.

Hmmm. I take regular classes with Artie, and mostly tend to do drops with a quick up/down movement. So, the emphasis is on the down, but because I'm relaxed/neutral to begin with I have to use my lower abdominals to lift up before I drop. So it's an quickup-drop, up-drop. Does that make any sense?

When I took workshops with Reyhan Tuszuz, I remember she kept saying "up, up", when talking about the pelvic lift/drops. And they look different on her than they do on Artie. This is going to sound odd, but I almost thought maybe she was squeezing her PC muscles when she did them, and that was the "up" part. Anyway, that's my wild theory of the day...

I like DaVid's comments about posturing too.

Originally Posted by david

Turkish is tucked "forward" from the inside of the thighs and top of the hamstrings. This causes you to already be "lifted" and your pelvic to be tilted upwards in base posture for Turkish
<snip>
From my understanding the movement you are asking about is generated by releasing the pelvic bone down through releasing some of the tension in the inner thighs. The accent is on the down - the return to "neutral" causes the hip to come up, but there is no accent involved on the up.

YESSSSS!! This is exactly what I was trying to describe.

Gold star for David for that great technical explanation (though I still feel like 'Egyptian' to you means 'Reda Style' and I believe there's a lot more variation among Egyptian dance postures in the real world than there is in this codified description.)

This is very interesting....

This isn't so technical a description, but I've always done the movement from my abs and gluts. Using the abs to pull the pelvis up and the gluts to emphasize the upwards motion - similar to a pelvic lock to the front. It really sends the front danglees flyin'

On me, when the emphasis is down, the down movement seems to irritate my lower back, which I try to avoid.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

In Turkish, I focus on the *drop* rather than the *lift*. I realize that's different from how Artemis teaches it: I do a "12:00 down" rather than her "12:00 up."

In Ahmet's workshop he only taught a pelvic lift (not a drop, as I had learned from Jenna) and he pointed to the the lower abs when describing the area doing work. The glutes were to stay relaxed. The accent was always on the up.

So...anybody wanna try engaging the lower back (contracting the muscles next to the spine) to achieve a very subtle drop? These muscles are touched by the finger tips in the "oh my aching back" gesture and were also identified in Suhaila's method - while doing a double time walking pelvic drop, rather than a stationary one.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

YESSSSS!! This is exactly what I was trying to describe.

Gold star for David for that great technical explanation (though I still feel like 'Egyptian' to you means 'Reda Style' and I believe there's a lot more variation among Egyptian dance postures in the real world than there is in this codified description.)

YAY, a gold star for me. Well, I see what you mean Lauren. But you would agree that the hip/pelvis in Egyptian posture in *general* is held by the abs, yes?

I work by a base posture that can be manipulated - the base posture indicates which muscles are engaged to hold the concept of the posture in given specific dance style. This doesn't mean that the posture isn't manipulated and angles of the body aren't changed - it just means that the muscles involved remain the same.

Arielarielariel: yay, another star for me?

To the ones pointing out that the Turks say up - it may have something with culture to do. I remember when I first started dancing that there was some controversy about the inappropriateness of dropping down in the "lands of the dance" VS what we thought was inappropriate (thrusting up).

Another thing that could be is that where as we in the west consider the accent as the "work" in a movement, sometimes easterners think of the return as the work and the accent as "relax".

Most videos I've seen so far of female Turkish dancers clearly have an accent on the down. There is one video I've seen where the accent is on the up - but that was of a dancer dancing in a Turkish gentleman's club.... The guys look like they do a bit of both.

DaVid

Originally Posted by nasila

In Ahmet's workshop he only taught a pelvic lift (not a drop, as I had learned from Jenna) and he pointed to the the lower abs when describing the area doing work. The glutes were to stay relaxed. The accent was always on the up.

I was hoping you would pop in and share what you learned b/c I couldn't remember what you told us he said. If Ahmet said the accent is on the up than I will do that, even if it feels weird.

Oh yes, 6 hours of pelvic lifts! (and, deliberately directing attention to said pelvic lifts...as he literally crooned "look at this, this is for you..." when we balked at first). ..g.:,r:;

One of the women in the class commented to him that it seemed like such a "male" movement, but he didn't say anything about women dancing differently. However, when I watch Reyhan (the "oriental star" one) she's not doing what Ahmet taught us, she does more like what Jenna taught us (and Jenna learned "home style" Roman dance from women in Turkey during her stay).

Originally Posted by anala

So...anybody wanna try engaging the lower back (contracting the muscles next to the spine) to achieve a very subtle drop? These muscles are touched by the finger tips in the "oh my aching back" gesture and were also identified in Suhaila's method - while doing a double time walking pelvic drop, rather than a stationary one.

This is a valid movement, but it's not the way the Turkish dancers do it, from what I know.

Originally Posted by david

Another thing that could be is that where as we in the west consider the accent as the "work" in a movement, sometimes easterners think of the return as the work and the accent as "relax".

Most videos I've seen so far of female Turkish dancers clearly have an accent on the down. There is one video I've seen where the accent is on the up - but that was of a dancer dancing in a Turkish gentleman's club.... The guys look like they do a bit of both.

DaVid

Yes, yes. Agree. Gold star!

Turkish dancers do an up drop. I usually see the clear accent on the down, but it's a lift-drop. I think I use my lower abs to lift up, and release to drop. Pelvis rocks.