Thread: How do I force a dominant hand in zilling when I use both hands almost equally?

Here is a little background, I think when I was little that I must've been a lefty who switched to righty. My mom said when I was learning how to write, I would switch back and forth, eventually choosing my right hand. So I write with my right but can write with my left. I always eat with my left hand. So I obviously still switch hand dominance even now.

So when I started Zilling a couple of years ago, I never noticed that I switched dominance (my gallop pattern was always even) until that is I started doing 9/8 and other fast rhythms. My switching back and forth totally screws me up. I can keep it going for like a bit, then I screw up because I start to switch. How do I force my right hand to stay the dominant? I am choosing the right since I do write with it. I am getting very frustrated because I think I should be able to do this already...c::

I think you just have to pick one and practice with it.

I play with an alternating lead, so the switch is deliberate, and in my patterns I always alternate between my left and right for successive beats, unless I am playing an accent with both together, which means that i automatically switch to the other hand after one has played. For instance my gallop goes RLR LRL RLR LRL.

This is how Elsa Leandros does it in her Bellydance with Zills DVD ([ame=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NNicHZZ0Vdk]YouTube - Bellydance with Zils - DVD - Amazon.com - belly dance[/ame]) and I find it works so much better for me. She gives lots of other reasons why (symmetry in choreo and speed for a start) but I actually find that as the alternation is automatic, it frees my brain up to focuse on the sound of the rhythm, rather than wondering if I am using the correct hand.

My instructor also prefers to alternernate the DOUM hand when playing triplets. If alternating feels more natural to you, go with it (provided that you keep the correct emphasis on the correct beats).

I was born a lefty. My dyslexia also had me writing my words and sentences backwards from right to left. They had retrained me to write with my right hand left to right the proper way. It was the only thing that could fix my crossed wires. Most of my life I have been ambidextrous.

When I began learning how to play left hand dominant it really messed me up and I found myself switching back and forth from right dominant to left hand dominant and vise a versa. So I just had to be aware and practice a lot. Now I am able to do both without switching, but it requires me telling me brain that I am going to play left hand dominant. I literally say to myself, "Brain play left hand dominant" then I do it.

One thing that I did was set a time limit. I started out say one minute playing left hand dominant. If I messed up, I started over again. When I accomplished that I would add a minute. If I messed up my two minute drill was repeated until I could do it successfully for two minutes. Then continued to increase the exercise by one minute intervals. Eventually I could go five minutes without messing up and now ten minutes with out messing up.

So my only advice is practice practice practice and focus focus focus. I figure since my brain is so messed up with crossed wires, if I can do it. Anyone can do it.

I hope this helps.

Michelle Joyce's Killer Ziller dvd clearly shows her hands playing the different patterns right hand dominant. Maybe this would be helpful for you to follow?

So, I can keep my gallops alternating but I should focus when doing other rhythms on one dominant hand? I've been trying to relearn my gallops with the right hand dominant and so far it isn't going so well. Please keep the advice coming!!!

I would say that practice is the only way. I teach my students all dominant hand, non-dominant hand, and alternating leads because they are all really useful skills to have. It take a lot of time to get it down, but I think the results are worth it.

Thanks for posting this thread. I am a lefty that switches hand dominance, too. I play some sports left-handed, but others right-handed. I write as a lefty, but use scissors as a righty.

When I took up dance, I immediately defaulted to playing 3's right-hand dominant, but I have been struggling with 4's for as long as I have been playing them (about two years). I just can't do it...I can't coordinate my hands well enough to keep them consistent, and they sound terrible. Just this week, I had a realization that maybe I should try playing 4's left-hand dominant, to see if that is easier. Haven't actually tried it yet (except for a minute or two in class), but I'm curious to find out if that is the culprit. I play doumbek left-handed, so I wonder why I feel the doums with my left hand when I play doumbek, but I feel the doums with my right hand when I play zills...so I'm feeling quite confused, LOL!

Originally Posted by KDizzle

So, I can keep my gallops alternating but I should focus when doing other rhythms on one dominant hand? I've been trying to relearn my gallops with the right hand dominant and so far it isn't going so well. Please keep the advice coming!!!

I continue to alternate, basicaly I am always on a RLRLRLRL roll, with different gaps between them for instance
RLR L RLR L RLR; LRL R LRL R LRL
RLR RLR LRLRLRL

I'm kind of ambi too, though more often left dominant than right. I just decided to mostly stay right-hand dominant on zills because that's the norm, and it seemed easier to play with the crowd.

I did learn how to alternate leads, but I dunno...I think it's just easier to pick a side and practice. But that's an opinion! :-)

I'm curious why some of us were taught you HAD to have a dominant hand?

One of my teachers always corrected me when I slipped into RLR LRL. Z-Helene's video and Elsa's dvd encourage the student to experiment with alternating. I'm increasingly of the opinion that it doesn't matter.

Can you hear the difference when you're in an empty room and practicing by yourself? Sure -- it does sound slightly different. Can you hear the difference when you're actually dancing and performing? I don't think so, at least I personally can't.

Why aren't more teachers encouraging the alternating style? Any thoughts?

Kdizzle -- I am MUCH faster on odd patterns when I let myself alternate. Do you really NEED to pick a dominant hand, or do you just need practice on those odd patterns themselves? Just curious.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I'm curious why some of us were taught you HAD to have a dominant hand?

One of my teachers always corrected me when I slipped into RLR LRL. Z-Helene's video and Elsa's dvd encourage the student to experiment with alternating. I'm increasingly of the opinion that it doesn't matter.

Can you hear the difference when you're in an empty room and practicing by yourself? Sure -- it does sound slightly different. Can you hear the difference when you're actually dancing and performing? I don't think so, at least I personally can't.

Why aren't more teachers encouraging the alternating style? Any thoughts?

Kdizzle -- I am MUCH faster on odd patterns when I let myself alternate. Do you really NEED to pick a dominant hand, or do you just need practice on those odd patterns themselves? Just curious.

Personally, I think that all of the options are valid. However, I can hear whether someone is playing with a dominant hand or alternating in performance because of the difference in sound between the zills. Playing with a dominant hand keeps a single 3-stroke repeated tonal pattern (tone 1, tone 2, tone 1 = high-low-high or low-high-low) while alternating is a 6 stroke pattern (tone 1, tone 2, tone1: tone 2, tone 1, tone 2 = high-low-high:low-high-low or low-high-low:high-low-high). Depending on the sound you are going for, one or the other might be preferable.

My primary reason for teaching and asking my students to learn all three versions is for consistency in hand use during troupe work. If I have everyone's arms in certain positions I will want them to all be using the same hands to play at the same time. At times I may want everyone R hand dominant while at other times I would ask for L hand dominant. For some choreographies I choose alternating, but it is all about the sound and look I am aiming for.

Originally Posted by mahsati

However, I can hear whether someone is playing with a dominant hand or alternating in performance because of the difference in sound between the zills. Playing with a dominant hand keeps a single 3-stroke repeated tonal pattern (tone 1, tone 2, tone 1 = high-low-high or low-high-low) while alternating is a 6 stroke pattern (tone 1, tone 2, tone1: tone 2, tone 1, tone 2 = high-low-high:low-high-low or low-high-low:high-low-high).

REALLY?? That amazes me. Maybe I'm hard-of-hearing or something, but I've actually recorded myself practicing (but just using my web cam, which probably sucks) and I can't tell which is which.

Can you tell a difference on all the sounds? I only really play with 4 -- open, closed, 1/2 open, and muted -- but I think Z-Helene has 6 or 8. I can tell the difference between a right-hand 1/2 open and a left-hand 1/2 open sound, but I think that's because of the placement in my left hand, and the fact that I seem to have to stare at that hand to get a 1/2 open sound I'm happy with :)

Originally Posted by aziyade

REALLY?? That amazes me. Maybe I'm hard-of-hearing or something, but I've actually recorded myself practicing (but just using my web cam, which probably sucks) and I can't tell which is which.

Can you tell a difference on all the sounds? I only really play with 4 -- open, closed, 1/2 open, and muted -- but I think Z-Helene has 6 or 8. I can tell the difference between a right-hand 1/2 open and a left-hand 1/2 open sound, but I think that's because of the placement in my left hand, and the fact that I seem to have to stare at that hand to get a 1/2 open sound I'm happy with :)

I can hear it on all of the sounds (though it is less obvious sometimes with the closed), but I have really good hearing at the high ranges. My low range/bass hearing is...ummm...just sad but on high tones i can differentiate a lot of them and can tell when the zills are on different tones or even just slightly out of tune usually. A good example for folks that don't have bat-hearing like me is to take a pair of zils from two different sets (preferably two different kinds) and play them. There is usually enough difference for most people to hear it that way, but for people with good high range hearing it is pretty easy. It's a little like playing a piano or other instrument at the high end...some folks can hear the difference if you alternate adjacent keys and others can't distinguish it as much.

I am of the opinion that when you dance solo, it is all up to how you want it to sound and what works for you....but it never hurts to be equally proficient in all the different types if possible ..g.:

Originally Posted by aziyade

I'm curious why some of us were taught you HAD to have a dominant hand
Kdizzle -- I am MUCH faster on odd patterns when I let myself alternate. Do you really NEED to pick a dominant hand, or do you just need practice on those odd patterns themselves? Just curious.

Exactly I am fine when I gallop but when I try to do a 9/8 I screw it up really bad. I can keep it up for like a minute, then blah! So I think if I can keep one hand dominate for the 9/8 then I won't screw up so bad.

Well, Suhaila has this thing about you learning both left and right hand dominant patterns, so what I did (to get left hand dominant) was to combine my step aerobics with zilling. I do 30 minutes, 3 times a week, of step, so I just added cymbal practice while I was stepping. Two birds, one stone -- that kind of thing. But yeah to what everyone else said -- you just keep at it, over and over again. Eventually it sinks in. :)

My first teacher who was Turkish based insisted that we learn RLR LRL

My second, who was Egyptian said RLR RLR

Another, who was ATS, said as long as you aren't playing RRL, she didn't care!

So, take it from there!

*BTW - I am ambi. Like Kash, I play RLR LRL in general.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Another, who was ATS, said as long as you aren't playing RRL, she didn't care!

My teacher started out dancing turkish style and sometimes plays her gallop LRR I believe, it's definately a single then a double, it does sound subtly different, she teaches both in the name of versatility.

I was taught switching at first, but got serious about zills after I learned basic drumming. I think it starts making a difference when you want to play zills as a percussion instrument, and play different sounds - following what is taught on e.g. Tobias Robertson's DVD or Mimi Spencer's zills CD.

Now, haivng a dominant hand doesn't mean one doesn't have to keep both active: Mimi's book has paradiddles (percussion exercises that keep both hands equally involved for different strokes), but assumes a dominant hand. That makes the most sense to me.

I can play basic patterns with switching lead (not too fast ;-) - it's a matter of practice.

I was trained RLR RLR.
But I find this leaves me with a weak left hand, so when I want to play RLRLRL, my left hand is not used to the speed and it gets difficult.

I am trying to re-train myself to do RLR LRL so that both hands get equally strong.

If you have high quality zills like Saroyans, they will all have the exactly same sound and you won't be able to tell the difference.

MEISSOUN

Play the way it suits YOU. I alternate by nature - so did the teacher who taught me the most about Zills. Alternating has the advantage in that you can play faster (for a given skill level) than hand dominant.

This said, I can play right-dominant OR left-dominant with little effort, as in a class or workshop when needed - although I'll slip back to alternating if I'm really "going for it".

Originally Posted by meissoun

I was trained RLR RLR.
But I find this leaves me with a weak left hand, so when I want to play RLRLRL, my left hand is not used to the speed and it gets difficult.

I am trying to re-train myself to do RLR LRL so that both hands get equally strong.

If you have high quality zills like Saroyans, they will all have the exactly same sound and you won't be able to tell the difference.

MEISSOUN

Even Saroyans (most of my zills are saroyan or zildjian) tune slightly with time and people with excellent high range hearing will be able to tell the difference. It doesn't matter though :) It is personal preference. My recommendation to have equal strength is to practice RLR, LRL, and RLR LRL, all as options for you so that when one hand starts to tire you can switch patterns without losing the beat. :)