Thread: Is this a beginner move?

Doing a little research for my book review of "Self made belly dancer"

Was wondering your opinions on teaching a hip drop....

Should this be the first move learned? At what day do you introduce it?
day one? day two, etc.....

I do teach it to my beginners, but it's not usually until week 4 or so...

I, too, teach hip drops to beginners, usually after we've done some upward hip movement for 3-4 weeks.

Deborah

I would agree with all of you - definitely not for a first class.

I start teaching it day one, but I start with basic dance isolations just to get their muscles used to the types of movements we do.

I don't break it down by weeks, but in my beginner's classes I cover:
1. Basic posture
2. Good warm up and cool down habits
3. Basic dance movements and isolations of head, torso, shoulders, arms, stomach, hips, footwork
4. Specific movement types covered – variations of lifts, drops, twists, basic shimmy, ¾ shimmy, circles, figure 8s, undulations, slides (all movements in place and traveling)
5. Footwork patterns
6. Concepts of patterns, level changes, layering, direction changes, musical interaction
7. Basic zill patterns
8. Basic rhythms
9. Simple choreographies, circle dances, line dances
10. Concept of improv, solo performance, troupe performance, partnering, follow/lead, call/response

Students are generally in that spot for at least 6 months - depending on learning speed and practice.

I introduce lifts and drops in the first class, but never with an expectation that they'll get it right away. I do not introduce the drop-release combo until well into my Level 1 session (probably the 7th or 8th week or so).

I teach it near the end of the beginner session (they run in 8 week sessions) depends on the group I am teaching though, sometimes it doesn't get taught until they take beginner again.
I teach it like this:
"you have a VERY grumpy baby on your hip. He likes to be bounced DOWN. So you bounce him twice DOWN. You have to bring him back up to go down. The harder you bounce down the more he laughs." OK this sounds really strange typing it but it works!
Then while doing the movement I make them say out loud, "bounce (when hip goes up) baby (when hip goes down)" We get into a rythem of bounce baby bounce baby bounce baby bounce baby. (they seem to get the down that way faster than using music, then we switch to music and I help them to generalize by saying bounce baby with the music then fading out the verbal cue)

I teach hip lifts the first night, and from there it's easy to go on to hip drops -- so both of these moves are very early on. I would prefer, however, not to see anyone below Intermediate level attempt the drop/release combo because it pains me to see this done badly.

Originally Posted by bintbeled

I teach hip lifts the first night, and from there it's easy to go on to hip drops -- so both of these moves are very early on.

Agreed!

I would prefer, however, not to see anyone below Intermediate level attempt the drop/release combo because it pains me to see this done badly

To me a lot depends on the particular group of students I have. If I have a group that in general has shown decent control over their obliques, a reasonable proficiency with hip lifts and drops, and a decent ear for the beat, I will start working on the drop-release. But if I have a group where lifts remain a struggle well into the session, I tend to skip the drop-release.

If you mean the move with weight on one leg and the other leg posed and the hip is lifted/dropped. Yes I do - on about week 4 or 5. Prior to that they spend time rock both hips evenly and have spent time with posture etc. So, not first night but pretty early in the scheme of things.

When I have taught absolute beginners, unweighted hip drops are on my list for the first session.

I touch on it in level 1, toward the end of a 6-week session, and get into it more thoroughly in level 2. Not for any particular reason, though.

As I read & type, I'm thinking about video footage I've seen of tiny Egyptian girls doing this move and I'm thinking... wow, do we overcomplicate things!

I don't just mean the teachers -- the students tend to overcomplicate, overthink and try too hard, too. Which all adds up to a very simple movement that many 4-year-olds can do quite easily becoming an intermediate move!!!

(same is true of chopsticks, of course. Stuff is just easier to learn when you're a kid!)

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I introduce lifts and drops in the first class, but never with an expectation that they'll get it right away.

Same here. I focus right from the start on controlling the drop so it's small and precise with no slamming/shoving down movement, and that the knee of their weighted leg is soft and not hyperextended.

ok...now you have me worried. I teach this as the opposite side of the hip lift coin...with the hip simply marking the beat with a downward motion instead of a lift up. I turn the class to a diagonal view of themselves in the mirror with their weight on the off leg and a demipoint on presenting side. Hip ups are done at full time and downs are done half time so the move doesnt become muddy. Am I over simplyfying this...cause it aint that hard...unless I have totally screwed something up.... in rereading - if I teach it front on...the instructions change dramatically

Originally Posted by anala

ok...now you have me worried. I teach this as the opposite side of the hip lift coin...with the hip simply marking the beat with a downward motion instead of a lift up.

Yep, me too. First class, right after I've taught a basic hip flick. The students love this move - it's when they start giggling and thinking "Wow, I'm doing a bellydance move!" I don't think it's an overly difficult move to do or teach. Of course, how a first-class student looks when doing this move is quite different (and far less refined) than how I'd expect an intermediate student to look.

PS - sometimes I get the students doing hip lifts and drops to different music - upbeat and flippy for the up, heavy thudding 'doums' for the down - so they can see that, even though they could be described as two halves of the same move, they can have quite a different feel.

Originally Posted by jewelbellydance

Of course, how a first-class student looks when doing this move is quite different (and far less refined) than how I'd expect an intermediate student to look.

I think for me the hardest thing to get beginners to refine on a hip drop is the isolation aspect. They usually tend to sink into the weighted leg so the top of their head bobs up and down as they drop. Once they have complete control over the unweighted hip that's dropping, I have them focus on tightening up the glute, hamstring and quad of the weighted leg so the drop is more precise. But it takes good body awareness to be able to do this, so for many of my beginning students it's a work in progress.

From memory it's about lesson seven. Don't hold me to that though.

They usually tend to sink into the weighted leg so the top of their head bobs up and down as they drop. Once they have complete control over the unweighted hip that's dropping, I have them focus on tightening up the glute, hamstring and quad of the weighted leg so the drop is more precise. But it takes good body awareness to be able to do this, so for many of my beginning students it's a work in progress.

Same, and my base drop is to neutral, but even then they have a lot of difficulty USING the weighted leg. Hell I have students who forget to use the weighted leg who've been dancing for Quite Some Time.

I wonder if the reason we're seeing so much variation in the answers here is that we are talking about different things:
1. plain old hip drop (flip side of the hip lift coin, as Anala said)
2. hip drop w/ foot release (down-up-down/release)

#1 - definitely a "beginner" move
#2 - more complex, requiring better muscle control and decent ear for the rhythm.

If we are talking about the standard "lift your hip up, drop your hip down", it's one of the first moves I teach on day one. I don't think you can get more basic than lifting your hip up and down?! It's probably the move most students get on their first try!

The hip drop flat footed - with full frontal presentation to the mirror is a simple yet difficult move for a beginner...IMO. Most cant "get" how to lift the hip to prepare for the drop without the use of the heel..and just a small assist from the knee, and no up and down of the head. The have not identified the use of the obliques to accomplish this move on the prepatory lift...much less the lock on the accent down as they still want to do everything skelataly (sp..that looks odd).

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I wonder if the reason we're seeing so much variation in the answers here is that we are talking about different things:
1. plain old hip drop (flip side of the hip lift coin, as Anala said)
2. hip drop w/ foot release (down-up-down/release)

#1 - definitely a "beginner" move
#2 - more complex, requiring better muscle control and decent ear for the rhythm.

Oh yeah, if we're talking with a foot release I save that for Level 2. The bobbing problem I mentioned is even more pronounced with the foot release, so I'd want to be sure they have it under control with the toe of the unweighted leg touching the floor before going to the next step.

Anala, the flat footed, weighted hip drop you are talking about is (I think) what I call a "down hip". And I agree that most beginners would have a hard time with it physically and conceptually. The idea of moving the side that you've got weight on seems quite disorienting to many of my students when they're first introduced to the idea.

what I call a "down hip".


Roger that..

Hip lift / hip drop -unweighted leg
up hip / down hip - weighted leg

Like that?

Originally Posted by laura 2

I think for me the hardest thing to get beginners to refine on a hip drop is the isolation aspect. They usually tend to sink into the weighted leg so the top of their head bobs up and down as they drop.

No head-bobbing! .p::



Deborah

Yes, the head bobbing is the thing that takes time - they get the idea of lifting and dropping their hip immediately, but it's the part where they have to separate that movement from the rest of the body that they have trouble with.

my teacher taught me the same day we did hip kicks/bumps/lifts...we did it in a kick-drop-kick-drop pattern
then she taught us the hip kick/drop walk (backwards and forewards)

wow that was ages ago......

Originally Posted by Athenaserpent

my teacher taught me the same day we did hip kicks/bumps/lifts...we did it in a kick-drop-kick-drop pattern
then she taught us the hip kick/drop walk (backwards and forewards)

wow that was ages ago......

hip kick/drop walk sounds interesting!

I`ve seen some dancers from Germany releasing (kicking) the unweighted leg during a hip lift rather than hip drop.

I introduce in lesson five without hip isolation requirement but with ToTAlLy anti- head bobbing attitude.

I introduce hip lifts/drops around week 3 or 4. I teach from a very muscular place so we accomplish the movement solely using the abdominal muscles rather than using the foot to lift/drop the hip. Seems to help prevent all the side crunching and other common "ailments" with the movement. I don't introduce the kick with the drop until my beginner II class. My theory is that I'd rather focus on good mechanics in beginner I so that we have a truly good base to build on...they can get fancy later.

Originally Posted by safiradokos

I introduce hip lifts/drops around week 3 or 4. I teach from a very muscular place so we accomplish the movement solely using the abdominal muscles rather than using the foot to lift/drop the hip. Seems to help prevent all the side crunching and other common "ailments" with the movement. I don't introduce the kick with the drop until my beginner II class. My theory is that I'd rather focus on good mechanics in beginner I so that we have a truly good base to build on...they can get fancy later.

YES!! I agree! I work on them just stretching their muscles first before trying any kind of hip drop move. Conditioning is the key to all movement and you can't do a move until your body is conditioned well enough. (Thank you Suhaila Salimpour!) We all have students who have never danced a day in their life and those that have danced since they were 3 years old. So everybody is different. So I too don't do this one right away (also about week 3-4, depends on the group)
and I take a long time to teach them the hip drop walk, that I see so many people don't really get, but this one takes time and lots and lots of drills!

By the way, I must admit, I am concerned about the title of your book, 'the self-made belly dancer.' What do you mean by that? It takes a lot of training from many good teachers to be good at any dance, or anything for that matter, nobody is self-made. Can you elaborate for me so I can understand it better, maybe I am just not getting the 'just' of the title. Thanks! ,r:;