Thread: Has anyone ever been self taught?? Shakey ground I know...Please advise .

Hiya Girls and Guys,

I am having trouble getting to a teacher with location issues and the fact Im too skint to own a car!

Has anyone ever taught themselves to a decentish standard through dvds and workshops or have you ever seen anyone who has been good and they have only been self taught?

I only ask and I do not mean to make a comparison but I recently went to a dance show of hip hop (think michael jackson, justin timberlake, britney etc) performances and this one guy stood out and I talked to him after and said where did you train etc as i knew a couple of the girls were from LIPA (Liverpool institute of performing arts) and he said he was self taught and that he could never afford lessons as a kid and never had any as an adult and just auditioned and got in the show!!

Does this happen in bellydance? Basically Im wanting to carry on because I LOVE to dance but I dont knwo if its going to lead anywhere with only dvds (i currently use about 4 which I do 4 nights a week) and some workshops 5 or 6 times a year?

Please help???

Honestly, I don't think it will lead anywhere. Even advanced and professional dancers tend to stagnate and develop bad dance habits without regular instruction.

Thanks Caroline!

The only local lesson not necessarily tribal thats near enough are one in crosby on a wed but im in college grrr or there is one in town but with a teacher who I have been advised not to go to but I think its my only option is to go to the one who causes controversey.

My observations are these:

You may learn a great deal however, there will be no one there to correct you. You are liable to develop some bad habits that can lead to bad movements-and bad physiology. OTH, you can be so bad that you can then claim that you have started a new tradition....g.:

But the main problem is that if you want to be involved in a community you won't have guidance. Which may not seem important, but watching the mostly self-taught has led me to that conclusion. Learning about basics like cover-ups, how workshops can benefit you, how to be an appreciative and supportive dancer, how to enter and leave a stage and so forth are generally NOT covered on DVDs. They are taught by teachers that have experienced them (the topic of teachers that are self-taught is a whole 'nother thread!)

If you absolutely cannot find a consistent teacher, at least find a way to take workshops and intensives. This is a community dance and we need community.

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

Thanks Caroline!

The only local lesson not necessarily tribal thats near enough are one in crosby on a wed but im in college grrr or there is one in town but with a teacher who I have been advised not to go to but I think its my only option is to go to the one who causes controversey.

I would also suggest staying above the politics. Make your own mind up about things. Listen to advice, but then make your own decisions regarding potential teachers. I have heard lots of rubbish about people being divas etc. then I met them and found it wasn't true. At the same time, if a teacher acts a way that upsets you, or if you check out with friends and find out she's doing something dangerous (technique wise), then you have your answer.

I believe Sam Hasthorpe started Tribal through the FCBD DVDs, but she also spoke about how when she went out to the US to train with FCBD they had to undo some fundamental bad habits she had developed from working from a 2 dimentional teacher with no feedback.

DVDs can probably take you to a point, but you will eventually find you can't progress any further.

I also think the best thing about bellydance is the community. I was at Majma last weekend, and I realised that the BD community is probably the only place where I feel truly accepted and appreciated for myself, and the girls I dance with are the best friends I have.

Are you looking for a tribal class or any class? If you can't get the style you originally wanted, it can still be beneficial to start a class in another style. I wanted to do ATS, but my local teacher does Egyptian, it didn't take all that long for me to start to love the style, and put my own personality into it. Also once you find a class, perhaps you might find someone who can lift share.

If you want to improve at all, then you are going to have to find a teacher, even if it's plain bellydance (rather than your preferred tribal/tribal fusion/folklore styles). I'm going to reiterate the advice given in another thread, which is, take a bog-standard bellydance class somewhere near you. It will make you work on the fundamentals, the essentials of this dance. You can fine-tune the styling with the dvd work and with workshops. But at this stage in your learning curve, you honestly do need a real-life teacher to guide you and correct you.

In the interests of absolute honesty, yes, I do know of one dancer (and one only) who was initially largely self-taught, from performance videos, namely Catherine Whitwood, now Catherine Amies. She is an phenomenally talented dancer, who worked enormously hard on her dancing at a time when we had few resources (and very few teachers) here[*]. However, she supplemented her self-teaching by going to Europe for workshops and classes with top teachers, such as Zaza Hassan & Beata & Horacio Cifuentes (if I remember correctly).

[*] Honestly, you newbies have no idea how few teachers there were available back when I started. Be thankful as to how well this community has grown over the years. When I were a lass, this was all fields...

Im at the point where I just want a teacher now! I just have to find someone. I work in Liverpool city centre and there is one lady who some people suggest avoiding but Im going to have to make my own mind up and not listen. But then again if her techniques are critisised (she only had 2 lessons herself i believe but tends to have huge numbers at her lessons so im just wary).

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh lol

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

I would also suggest staying above the politics. Make your own mind up about things. Listen to advice, but then make your own decisions regarding potential teachers. I have heard lots of rubbish about people being divas etc. then I met them and found it wasn't true. At the same time, if a teacher acts a way that upsets you, or if you check out with friends and find out she's doing something dangerous (technique wise), then you have your answer.

Thanks Caroline,

Believe me I have completely learnt that lesson. As a naieve newbie I believed alot of rubbish and got pulled in to silly tit for tat but its not nice, not respectful of the art and I got burned by no one elses fault but mine. Im here to dance now I couldnt give a monkeys about politics its not relevant!

Originally Posted by kahaz

You may learn a great deal however, there will be no one there to correct you. You are liable to develop some bad habits that can lead to bad movements-and bad physiology. OTH, you can be so bad that you can then claim that you have started a new tradition....g.:

Funny you should say that, but I've been working with Autumn Ward's new dvd and I realise now that there is a fairly basic move that I have been doing slightly wrong all along. I have never been corrected on it by any of my teachers, and it took a dvd correcting me to figure it out!

I'm not trying to say that dvd's can take the place of a live teacher completely, especially for a beginner, but this has opened my eyes to how much live teachers can either miss or ignore.

No one has mentioned culture or musicality. I've yet to see a DVD that addresses much culture in the dance (and it IS a cultural art form) and even the rhythm DVDS, while very useful are no match for a good live teacher in teaching you rhythms and musicality.

I personally know a dancer/instructor who has never attended a weekly dance class in her life nor has she ever had a regular teacher. She has learned to dance entirely by watching DVDs and by attending workshops (Ahlan wa Sahlan, Reda, Dina, Tamalyn Dalal etc.) I personally don´t like the way she dances and can spot out more than a few errors in technique (what I consider errors, mind you) but a couple of years ago she placed second in a competition in the U.S......so I guess she must not be that bad. ,r:;


Regards
Priscilla

Classes
There isn't one teacher on this page of our local magazine who is not an experienced dancer or capable teacher here on Merseyside . A good Egyptian or Turkish style teacher will give a good basis to independent study of tribal.
Also on the magazine is information about the upcoming tribal workshops organised by Kate locally for July.
I hope anyone keen to try or pursue tribal will take the opportunity.

The trouble with learning with DVDs is that it's the same lesson over and over.

There ARE people who can self-teach some dance forms. They're the exceptions rather than the rule, and as much as most of us like to think of ourselves as exceptions, most of us are the rule.

I'm not an expert on hip hop, but as I understand it, it's a street dance. An urban kid with no money for lessons can go out and see people performing live all the time, as well as people mucking about. He can even make friends, ask questions, and get some things broken down.

The average suburban or rural kid limited to videos and youtube clips doesn't usually get far.

I think the same is true of great self-taught bellydancers. Yes they exist -- but mostly within the culture, where they can see, participate in, and learn about their art form as part of their daily lives. Even then, when they go pro they usually have a teacher.

I second what Liza said. Getting basic technique from any good instructor in a different style - or in as many styles as possible - is going to inform your dancing. Rachel Brice studied with Suhaila, right?

Are you thinking that you'll be without a car for years and years?

Originally Posted by Tribal_Butterfly

Has anyone ever taught themselves to a decentish standard through dvds and workshops or have you ever seen anyone who has been good and they have only been self taught?

I don't think I have ever seen a really good self-taught dancer. I also don't think I have ever seen a really good dancer who has not spent significant time in a one-on-one mentoring relationship with a teacher. Classes are necessary, as are master-class workshops, and videos are helpful, but if you are really looking to have the refined technique, stage presence, and understanding of yourself as an artist that defines a professional, you are not going to get there with group classes and/or videos, unless you are a one-in-a-million individual. Of course, if you have no desire to perform and are just looking for exercise or something different to do, videos may be sufficient for you, particularly if you have experience from somewhere else, such as training in yoga or a different dance form (so you are aware of proper body alignment issues and won't accidentally hurt yourself).

p.s. None of this means that a person who can't find a teacher can't play around, use videos, learn a few moves, and have some fun! I did that myself for about 6 months before I started classes.

But I never fooled myself into thinking I was 'studying' or 'training' and I never would have danced in front of anyone! That was playtime, and fun.

I think to some extent and in some respects, we are all self-taught on some things or some levels. But I have to say that I find both classroom and videos to be a fully rounded education; I know others will disagree but I like to work with videos a lot because I can back up as much as I want without holding up the class or even feeling self-conscious about it. Also, like going to other workshops, you get different ideas, or even get to see if you want to do a particular style of dance before signing up with an instructor.

Randa Kamel says she is self taught in Bellydance

I found her just now thru google Self-Taught Dancer

I sorta kind feel I am. I had a teacher the first year that taught me the very basics. Joined a troupe and learned more with that teacher and the other dancers. She quit teaching when she moved away, so I began teaching. Small town...nobody else to do it.

8 Years later I have gone far beyond what my first teacher gave me, and did it with workshops, retreats, vids and a lot of just plain sweat in the studio working stuff out for myself. After a certain point...I think that is what we all have to do.

Originally Posted by toria_dances

Randa Kamel says she is self taught in Bellydance

I said this above, but I'll repeat it. I think it's entirely possible to be self-taught when a dance form is part of your daily life, there are experienced and talented dancers in your family, your home, your neighborhood...

Although even then, a dancer will usually go to a teacher when they can, as they go pro. Randa was Raqia's student at some point, wasn't she?

I think the self taught bit is that final layer that an good dancer/entertainer does when she brings "herself " to the dance. The way she tweaks and builds the dance for her act and fits in her personality. I really believe you have to have the routine of the regular class for a foundation and as long as your teacher is competant and all those Merseyside teachers on that magazine link are and more.

Not only should we be prepared not to take "second hand advice" all the time but you have to "see for yourself". I went along to watch a local dancer who I had not heard a lot of good about. It all started well and I could see how she was well regarded by some and all though it is went down hill from there, I am glad I was persuaded to see for myself. Equally if somebody told me a teacher was "two-dimensional", I would still go along to class to see for myself. Otherwise how do you know if they suit you?

<Nervously raises hand>

Ummmm . . . I'm mostly self-taught . . . <rushes to add> . . . but I ain't no Jillina, Dina or Randa, either.

Mom started dancing/teaching when I was 9 years old so I sorta grew up with the music and dance -- although in a very White Anglo-Saxon Protestant kind of way.

My mom practiced alot and she taught alot and she took alot of privates (not group classes); I was -- as it turned out -- fortunate to be in the house sometimes while she practiced, accompany her to some of the places she taught, and to some of her private lessons. Although I never *took lessons* from her, I gained an awful lot of info just by being *around.*

I did get some coaching from Mom as I began my apprenticeship with her; checking technique, of course, but also how to put a show together, what to expect (the unexpected), what to avoid, how to handle "x" "y" and "z" . . .

What about now, after 30 years of dancing "professionally"?

I fixed some technique issues many years ago (a hip push is not the same a s a hip lift, for example, which I discovered on my own).

I still fight my posture. (Why, oh why, don't we listen to our mommies?)

I have taken/continue to take workshops and have dropped in on a few classes over the last 15 years. I recently completed my second session of actual class lessons; nerve-racking, but I liked it!

Would I be a better dancer had I taken lessons all the way through? Yes. The discipline of lessons makes us do things (like drill) that we might not do as much on our own. (Good) teachers can help us avoid the pitfalls of improper technique and carriage. (Good) teachers can help us "be better" faster than we might all on our own. No teacher can take us beyond the limits of our natural abilities, but he/she can certainly give us the tools we need to make ourselves the best dancers we can be.

Do we need lessons to bop around our living rooms with our friends? No. A DVD will do just fine. But, as someone who did literally grow up with the dance, I say lessons/coaching are essential to get to "performance" level.

Deborah

Originally Posted by beafarhana

If you want to improve at all, then you are going to have to find a teacher, even if it's plain bellydance (rather than your preferred tribal/tribal fusion/folklore styles). I'm going to reiterate the advice given in another thread, which is, take a bog-standard bellydance class somewhere near you. It will make you work on the fundamentals, the essentials of this dance. You can fine-tune the styling with the dvd work and with workshops. But at this stage in your learning curve, you honestly do need a real-life teacher to guide you and correct you.

In the interests of absolute honesty, yes, I do know of one dancer (and one only) who was initially largely self-taught, from performance videos, namely Catherine Whitwood, now Catherine Amies. She is an phenomenally talented dancer, who worked enormously hard on her dancing at a time when we had few resources (and very few teachers) here[*]. However, she supplemented her self-teaching by going to Europe for workshops and classes with top teachers, such as Zaza Hassan & Beata & Horacio Cifuentes (if I remember correctly).

[*] Honestly, you newbies have no idea how few teachers there were available back when I started. Be thankful as to how well this community has grown over the years. When I were a lass, this was all fields...

Yes, I remember it well. There was very little about when I started out, and I have to say that I did learn quite a lot from watching Egyptian performance DVDS (videos at that time). I learned eff all from tuition videos. I'm pretty good at working out technique from watching a dancer move. I taught myself many moves from Fifi Abdou and Mona Said that nobody at that time was teaching, and I have to say, there are two core moves I've still not seen anyone teaching. I practised for 3 to 4 hours a night when I first started learning. I locked myself away in my bedroom and practised and drilled until I drove my then husband nuts. I attended what workshops I could and when they weren't available I just sat and studied movies. So, yes, I do believe it's possible to self teach. But you need this inherent ability to be able to break down the moves correctly. If you can't do this, you need tuition in class...or private tuition.

Originally Posted by toria_dances

Randa Kamel says she is self taught in Bellydance

So does Fifi, and so does Lucy.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

... yes, I do believe it's possible to self teach. But you need this inherent ability to be able to break down the moves correctly. If you can't do this, you need tuition in class...or private tuition.

Yes.

Deborah

Hola tribal_butterfly! totally interested in your thread, but i'm just curious have you EVER taken any kind of dance class with an instructor? if not, i think u may find DVD's either very challenging or boring. While im a new to taking classes ive self taught for 2 years, i took my first official workshop last month and my instructor was amazed at how much i knew and my technique. Now, *silver lining, ive taken almost every other concievable dance class with amazing instructors, had performance experience, etc. One of the most important aspects of dance is posture, if u have bad posture, don't matter how long u self teach, it won't look good.

*can u self teach? yes, but it really depends on your dvd, u need someone focused on every aspect (i highly recoment Jenna from beyondbellydance.com, she gives good basics, is VERY concerned about posture and talks through everything.)

*u also need a mirror, prop it up next to the tv, u need to be able to see what you're doing.

but as all the beautiful above bhuzzers have said, lessons are crucial, i've been meeting some amazing women through them of all ages, and i love my instructor, so do some searching see what u can find :)

good luck! keep dancing!

Originally Posted by toria_dances

I found her just now thru google Self-Taught Dancer

She is "anti-school" in every sense of the word. Not just anti-belly dance school. Here's her personal home page Home Page She has books out about having your teenager quit school and she sells "unschool" T-shirts.
Here's one of the photos she has on her belly dance site, near a description of the dance

She does mention having taken a couple classes with Mimi Spencer and does mention masmoudi beat. So she has some knowledge of rhythm. There's also "performance magic" that she talks about in her improv article...a touch of "Goddess dance" essence, maybe?

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Randa was Raqia's student at some point, wasn't she?

Yes, she was Raqia's student.

I would also say there may be a difference between an "unschooled" dancer who grew up in the culture; who has had the opportunity to develop an innate understanding of the music and the culturally appropriate movements for the different styles/instrumentation/rhythms simply by immersion, and a dancer who doesn't have the benefit of that immersion.
Being self taught in a cultural art can be a challenge. Without a teacher (or numerous teachers) one can miss out on a lot of important nuances without even realizing.

I don't think that it is an either or situation. Self-taught does not mean giving up on all outside instruction.
If I had to give a ratio to my learning I would say I am about 2/3 self-taught. I cannot try and measure my level of talent or skill. What I mean by that is that since the beginning of my bellydance life, some 14 years ago, I have always practiced my dance, researched my rythms and other aspects all outside of formal classes. At the beginning there were not all that many teachers or workshops, and no internet. I also have never been able to afford all the classes I would have liked to take. But it is amazing how many resources are out there; videos, musicians etc.
I chose workshops and classes and then worked on integrating things as much as I could. I might take a session or two then stop and just work on stuff I learned. Also taking criticsms to heart and trying to learn from them.
There are advantages to having a good teacher of course. I wish I could have found a real mentor at some point in my learning. But I always ended up finding what I needed through various teachers. It might have been a longer and more winding path of learning but that is part of the beauty.
One advantage I feel my autonomy has given me is a freedom to develop my own style.

Self-taught is a nice buzzword, too. And it may or may not be factual.

There was a girl in my high school who told everyone she taught herself violin. Well, she may have -- BUT she was in my Suzuki class when we kids, and her Dad played violin in our Philharmonic.


Some people eschew FORMAL TRAINING programs, but grew up truly immersed in the art form -- especially if they were raised at the foot of the piano bench, or they teethed on finger cymbals.

Other people want to call themselves "auto-didacts" because they don't feel like their teachers actually deserve the credit for their work or their success.