Thread: Should I say something: Beginner student teaching seniors

I might have posted this before but I couldn't find with a search and it may be in a dead thread. Anywho, a student of mine recently asked me to perform (for free) to her beginner belly dance class at the senior center where she works. This woman has only been taking my beginner class for 14 weeks or so. She had no training before me, except maybe some videos.

In response to her request, I feel like I have a moral obligation to say something to her. Especially now that a new class session has started and she has not enrolled yet!

I don't want to tell her not to teach, cause I don't thin that would change her behavior. Clearly she loves it and is committed to it, but I want to encourage her to continue to study belly dance as she is teaching.

She is a good dancer for a beginner, but her posture always needs correcting and she just sort of spaces out and does her own thing most of the time. So I just worry about what she is teaching the ladies at the senior center. I know we've talked several times on other threads about how it is a problem when beginners start teaching, but I feel like it is really important to address if one of my students start this behavior, which I consider to be unacceptable.

One day after class, she came up to me and said, "Your choreographies are lovely. How do you make it flow so well? I am trying to teach my students a choreo and it is really hard."

A beginner student trying to teach a class choreography! I don't get it. I told her it takes a long time to work on choreographies and that I had been taking several classes a week for almost a year before I did my first one.

Anyway, should I say anything to her or should I just let it go, since she will probably continue what she is doing anyway? WWBDD?

She's your student, she's been studying for all of 14 weeks, and she's teaching seniors?

Sadly, yes, if she's talking to you about it and you're not FREAKING OUT in front of her, then as far as she can tell, you approve!

OK, maybe freaking out isn't the right reaction. But I think you've almost got to say something. I think I'd say 'most people train as a bellydancer for 5-7 years before they start teaching. Teaching seniors is considered especially demanding, because they often have multiple health issues and muskuloskeletal problems and need an especially well-trained instructor to keep them safe.'

Maybe she's already highly trained in working with geriatric kinesiology?

I would tell her that people often think it's OK to teach beginners when they're just a beginner themselves, because they know more than the student -- but that it takes years of experience to spot the common alignment and postural issues that can cause injuries.

It's possible to do all this in a spirit of concern for the girl and her students, rather than judgement.

I doubt she has training with seniors, as she is the admin assistant. Lauren, I hope you don't mind if I copied you, but here is what I plan to write:

I also hope you continue to take belly dance classes either with me or another teacher, while you are teaching elderly women. I have some concerns about beginners teaching classes. Most people train as a belly dancer for 5-7 years before they start teaching (as an exception, I started teaching after three years, but I would say that is the absolute minimum).


Teaching seniors is considered especially demanding, because they often have multiple health issues and muskuloskeletal problems and need an especially well-trained instructor to keep them safe. It can be dangerous to teach others how to dance if you had not had the proper training and technique. I think that you have great promise as a dancer and a teacher, and it is clear how much you love it. As you teacher, I would prefer it if you didn't teach while you are still a beginner student. However, please continue your study of the dance so that you can provide a safe environment to those that you teach, if you continue to do so.

You should also mention to her that the warm ups, cool downs, stretches and techniques that you use in your general classes are not necessarily suitable for a seniors class, so she shouldn't be treating your classes as a suitable example of how to teach to a group of students with more specific physical needs.

suggest YOU give her lesspon plans?
i am sorta going through the same.
just got a student from a "teacher" at adult school, who also teaches seniors.she should not be teaching squat!

I wouldn't want to give a student lesson plans:
a) it would just be Enabling,
b) she wouldn't understand them,
c) why should *I* do her work for her!
d) I teach on a teacher training course- I'd be telling her, get yourself signed up on that course pronto, and she'd get to meet some people who take teaching a damn sight more seriously than she appears to.

Why are you so afraid to tell her that she isn't ready to teach?

I think for me, one of the best things that my teachers have done is tell me I'm not ready for x, y, or z. It hurts at first, but a day or two later, I realize they were right. I'd rather be ready for something than go into a situation completely unprepared and be foolish or worse, dangerous.

You should definitely let her know that she needs to continue her dance education, and that she could be setting herself up for a liability lawsuit if someone is injured. Bring up the posture thing, if you can - if she can't even correct her own posture, how can she correct other dancers'? Old spines are not as resilient as young spines, she needs to be careful!

I have to say, I was scared sh*tless after a teacher suggested that I substitute-teach one of her beginner classes in my third year as a student. I said I couldn't do it, but I felt really bad about not helping. So I began to prepare myself in case I was ever asked again. I think teachers need to realize teaching is a big deal, and they have responsibilities to their students and the dance itself.

Originally Posted by da Sage

You should definitely let her know that she needs to continue her dance education, and that she could be setting herself up for a liability lawsuit if someone is injured. Bring up the posture thing, if you can - if she can't even correct her own posture, how can she correct other dancers'? Old spines are not as resilient as young spines, she needs to be careful!

I can't agree more!
This person might not respect the fact that this dance, like any other, is an art form and that teachers need to train in it for a significant amount of time in order to do it justice through their teaching. You might not get anywhere by telling her what the "done thing" is. But she might nevertheless respond to the fact that if one of her students injures themselves doing something she taught in class, they could sue!
You need to try to put the fear of God in her about that. It's hard enough to teach BD safely even when you have a strong dance background without consulting outside resources about general group fitness, IMO. It's very likely that she's actually putting her students in danger of injuring themselves, and that's even more important than putting them in danger of becoming bad dancers.
Honestly, she sounds clueless. How frustrating.

I'm thinking it through from her point of view -- not to justify a beginner teaching, but to make it easier to think about communicating with her.

She works at a senior center. She's starting to take some bellydance classes. She's learned a few fun moves that seem really simple and low-impact. She thinks 'gee, I should show these moves to the women at the Center, it would be a lot of fun!' The senior women aren't likely to be studying to be pros, they're just moving around to preserve their mobility and trying to make exercise fun. The director of the senior center seems fine with the idea of an untrained clerical worker teaching exercise to the seniors (yikes!).

How to bust that bubble -- preferably without alienating the student/'teacher' away from ever taking classes?

It just boggles my brain as to why she thought this would be a good idea. She really needs to know how to break moves down, what moves are appropriate to teach, and how to work with women who's bodies aren't nearly as limber as hers.
I've been dancing for over 7 years and I would be scared ****less to teach at a senior center.

Real life example: My mother-in-law is 50 and has recently started taking classes. She has severe mobility issues with her left arm. She can't hold her left arm up at shoulder height for very long, let alone do snake arms. After her first class, she was in some serious pain. I had to show her alternatives and warm-ups so that she isn't hurting by the end of the class because her teacher doesn't do it.
Now imagine the issues a 70 or 80 year old might have. If she's not careful, she could seriously injure one of those ladies. Especially if they're prideful and won't admit when they can't do something or something hurts. .w.:

Oh my...what a mess. I sent her an e-mail...we'll see. I didn't confront her sooner, because I am nonconfrontational and I really didn't have the opportunity to address her directly (with all the facts) until she wrote me this letter asking her to dance. I know I should've spoken up sooner, but because I didn't she will probably continue. I do know that her boss told her to start taking classes and the senior center is even paying for them. That's a good thing I guess... :(

Just for curiosity's sake, would anybody on this thread contact the senior center and question their judgment in inviting someone who is still at a beginner level in her studies to teach for them?

Does anybody on this thread think that the senior center themselves may be partly culpable for failing to consider the qualifications of the people they hire to teach exercise-oriented classes?

Shira, that's exactly my view. The administrators of an organization that caters to seniors should have a keen awareness of the special training a fitness instructor would need to help seniors exercise safely and should vet potential instructors accordingly.

If I were a senior citizen who had chosen specifically to attend exercise classes at a senior's centre rather than at a gym, for instance, it would be because I was expecting the classes to be tailored to my needs and potential mobility issues. What is the purpose of the centre if not to provide safe and appropriate recreational activities for their clients?

Her response:
"Thank you for your good wishes. I try to tailor my class for Senior Beginners. We do not do twisting hip moves for example and definitely no floor work. I keep it basic and fun, and if I think a move is too advanced or unsafe for them I will not use it. I do have ballet and modern dance training from my youth and college as well as belly dancing. So I have been dancing for more than 20 years. I just won’t say how much more. Anyrate, I believe that is the music I was thinking of because I was thinking of a violin piece that you use so Claude Chalhoub must be it. I do intend to continue my personal Belly dance training and I think that you are an excellent teacher. I have learned a lot in your class this fall and winter. Take care and I hope to see you soon."

OK...

I think, perhaps, you should call the center and maybe tip them off.

Although Shira has a point about the responsibility of the place, I'd probably feel really guilty if I knew someone underqualified were teaching.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Just for curiosity's sake, would anybody on this thread contact the senior center and question their judgment in inviting someone who is still at a beginner level in her studies to teach for them?

Does anybody on this thread think that the senior center themselves may be partly culpable for failing to consider the qualifications of the people they hire to teach exercise-oriented classes?

Yes, I definitely feel that the senior center is culpable.

But I'm not sure I feel like a random bellydance teacher from across town has authority to hold them accountable... one of my own students, I would feel like it was my 'place' to say something (as Andalee did) though I don't feel like I have any authority (moral, legal or ethical) to try to stop an arrangement that has nothing to do with me if that student doesn't agree with my position on the matter.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Just for curiosity's sake, would anybody on this thread contact the senior center and question their judgment in inviting someone who is still at a beginner level in her studies to teach for them?

Does anybody on this thread think that the senior center themselves may be partly culpable for failing to consider the qualifications of the people they hire to teach exercise-oriented classes?

I think these are good points.

I cannot get into the mindset of these not-even half trained dancers wanting to get out there and teach. I remember when my teacher asked for me to sub for her for a few weeks. I'd been doing belly dance for several years - and had five years experience as a High School teacher and I still felt I wasn't ready!

Just for curiosity's sake, would anybody on this thread contact the senior center and question their judgment in inviting someone who is still at a beginner level in her studies to teach for them?

Does anybody on this thread think that the senior center themselves may be partly culpable for failing to consider the qualifications of the people they hire to teach exercise-oriented classes?

I would think that the senior center would require anyone teaching a class to be certified in some way.

If it was my 70 or 80-year-old mother living there, I would want to know that the person teaching this class, or any class for that matter, isn't experienced or certified to teach.

My boyfriend's grandfather took a fall recently and broke a hip. During the surgery to put a pin in, his heart stopped. He's been in a coma for several days now. This is the risk. And I'm pretty sure the girl teaching this class isn't considering this. We've all had bad falls while dancing and not necessarily while doing something high impact. Someone who is elderly may not know what their limits are.

I just hope no one gets hurt.

While I agree the situation is distressing, I don't think it's the OP's place to go to the Center about it. If they require training they would have asked for her certification.

What I would do, however, is continue the dialogue with the teacher/student and ask her pertinent questions about her liability coverage. She can't assume that the Center will cover her in case of injury and it's something she needs to consider if she wants to act like an instructor.

It might give her pause. Probably not, but it's worth a shot.

this problem is all over the bellydanceworld...
14 hours bellydance instruction and then teaches others..

this is the reason, why we have in austria the first qualified registred
bellydance teachers. It helps!

greetings from vienna

I would think that in this case - fitness instructor and/or physio training/cetification would be at least as important. Most people in the UK are Very frail before they go into home.

I think this is something that you should just sit back and observe and offer her support if she asks you. She is an adult. She is an employee of the senior center. They know her and what she is capable of. They don't know you.

She said that she has had extensive dance experience in ballet and modern. For all you know she may have experience teaching in another dance form or in recreational therapy or dance therapy. Why don't you go and do a little demo for them in costume and observe her teaching.

She is probably not being paid to teach belly dance classes. You don't want to do anything at all to jeopardize her regular employment with the senior center.

The biggest problem I see is that you have told her that you need to have 5 or 6 years experience before being ready to teach but admit that you have only been dancing for 3. So if you consider yourself to be an exception to your own standards, she probably sees what she is doing as an exception as well.

Souzan

As a senior citizen I find it insulting that I can be taught by anyone less than competant.

Originally Posted by jencUK

I would think that in this case - fitness instructor and/or physio training/cetification would be at least as important. Most people in the UK are Very frail before they go into home.

In the US, a senior center isn't a 'home.' It's usually a community center, with programs especially for seniors. Classes, trips, social meetings, sometimes lectures on things like taxes and investments or classes on using the internet.

The seniors here wouldn't be frail at all, for the most part, they'd be people who are living independently. they could be as young as 55 or 65.

But the population would also include those who are still living independently but no longer drive, walk with a cane, etc. There will be a disproportionate number of hip replacements, students with arthritis, heart conditions, etc.

so it's not a 'special' or frail population like a nursing home would be, but it does require some extra care.

If she has 20 years' experience in movement, especially any teaching experience or training, she may be more qualified than a typical bellydance teacher to work with this population.

Then it's a question of giving substandard bellydance instruction to people because they're seniors, as Liz said. Which is unfortunate, but if there's a way for us to police it, I don't know what that is.

If it's not specifically defined as "therapeutic," the center may view a belly dance class like a flower arranging class, or a knitting class. They may just be happy to have an additional activity offered for their clients.

I was once asked to lead a knitting class/circle at a retirement home -- despite the fact that I am in no way qualified to teach it, and the residents probably know tons more about knitting than I do!" But the residence director saw me knitting a sock in a doctor's office waiting room and struck up a conversation.

Most people (not in the know) seem to view belly dance like yoga. "Oh it will get them moving and give them something to do for an hour" -- despite the fact that a bad dance instructor and a bad yoga instructor can really HURT someone.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

Her response:
"Thank you for your good wishes. I try to tailor my class for Senior Beginners. We do not do twisting hip moves for example and definitely no floor work. I keep it basic and fun, and if I think a move is too advanced or unsafe for them I will not use it. I do have ballet and modern dance training from my youth and college as well as belly dancing. So I have been dancing for more than 20 years. I just won’t say how much more. Anyrate, I believe that is the music I was thinking of because I was thinking of a violin piece that you use so Claude Chalhoub must be it. I do intend to continue my personal Belly dance training and I think that you are an excellent teacher. I have learned a lot in your class this fall and winter. Take care and I hope to see you soon."

OK...

Maybe I'm not seeing this from everyone else's perspective but she states she has 20 years of dance experience and prior bellydance training. I would probably hesitate to reccomend her to dancers who are looking for extensive training or to dance professionally, but in my opinion she seems more the qualified to lead seniors through some very basic bellydance movements. In fact it appears that she has been dancing way longer then the OP.

Also as the OP stated, 5-7 years minimum before teaching, yet she is teaching after only 3. To me that screams hypocricy. Don't tell someone how to do something if you yourself aren't following your own rules.

I've seen this woman dance. She does NOT dance like someone who has had 20 years of experience. She has sloppy arms and posture. I would expect with someone with over 20 years of dance experience to at least have proper posture. And just because you know how do do other forms of dance does not a belly dance teacher make.

Please don't call me a hypocrite. I was stating that there are some exceptions to the rule (not that I consider myself exceptional)--but that the min does not include people who have been learning BD for 14 weeks.

Ugh, I knew I shouldn't have posted this thread....because
A) someone is bound to attack me for not having a lot of experience as a teacher, even though I know I am a really damn good one. I'm probably a better teacher than I am a dancer (yes, it has happened)
B) My confronting her did nothing to change her behavior. It was pointless for me to say anything...it has only caused tension and I may have lost a student because of it.

I just sent you a Teachers Group invite- might be a better and more private forum for raising issues like this.

Well, I still think it was the right thing to do to say something to your student. You might have changed her mind if she was less stubborn, and now you know that you tried to do the right thing. Who knows- she might have reacted as if she was blowing you off, but she might come around eventually. Or not. But I think you will look back on this later and feel better about what you did.