Thread: How do you explain musical terms to your students?

Since I've been a musician most of my life you think I'd be able to explain this, but I'm having trouble. My problem is that my brain simply accepts music...I just think that way. So I'm having trouble explaining to my students what a down beat and an upbeat are. I can just hear them...doesn't matter what kind of music...I can just hear it....so I'm having a hard time explaining it.

So how to you teach someone who can't instinctively hear it? I've got them with the counts, but can't figure out how to explain up beat versus down beat.

Help!

Oooh, good question. Difficult to articulate for someone in music and/or dance for most of their lives.
...waiting anxiously for the answer....
off the top of my head- the "downbeat" is the "1" or the "start" of the measure (and will continue from there?) while the "upbeat" is the preceding anticipating "beats"...or the rhythm count based on starting on that anticipating "upbeat"???
So, downbeat would be ONE, 2,3,4 FIVE 6,7,8
and upbeat would be AND 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 AND 5 and 6 and 7 and 8.
Confusing because both are timed with the rhythm, but one feels "off"...unless it is purposefully counter point.

So you want to teach where the being of the rhythm is? Might be easier to teach them rhythm identification first. Once they recognise that there is a repeating pattern of Doums, they should be able to anticipate the beginning of the next bar.

Also get them to listen out of the join/chain/return Tak Ka. That's the signal that the bar is ending.

Perhaps work on walking in a circle or even just stepping in place. have them step on 1,2,3,4. Count the rhythms out loud as they step "D D TKT D TKT" Start slow, then speed up. They might understand better if they can feel it on their body...dunno.

In Egyptian style the down beat would be the beat where the drummer hits the drum in the middle of the drum surface (thank you for that reference Victoria Carter of the Suhail Kaspar school of Arabic percussion).

Further it would be the sounds in the music that you would step on (in western music people call it bass - and that's probably a bit generalized to reference the "deepest" drum sound).

Further it is the sound that you in Egyptian style (traditional base conceptualization) would pull your body into, in around and/or in under your spine....for example:

D - chest drop
T - chest circle
DD - chest drop, chest drop
T - hip twist

I had a great conversation with Victoria Carter this weekend and I was SO excited to have a drummer and a dancer approach this in such a fashion. I've been doing, teaching and watching this for years and expressed it in many ways, but this really was an easy way of understanding it. Im off to buy Suhail's Vol III DVD now. theehee

Thank you to you all for all the fabulous information!

This was one of those things that I didn't even realize that I couldn't verbalize until someone asked me to....it was something I took for granted. I think with all the info ya'll passed that I've got a handle on how to explain it now...those were all things that I've had experience with, but I didn't know how to verbalize it...reading your descriptions helped big time.

Thanks so much!

If the D doesnt occur at the onset of the 4 or 8 count...in other words if the D is on the 3..is that still the down beat. Is the down beat always a D?

I have always heard the term "downbeat" used in the same way that it is used in western music -- referring either to the first beat of a measure (e.g. the one) or the counted beats underlying the time signature (e.g. one, two, three, four), *not* referring to the the dums or the emphasized beats.

The interesting thing about Arabic rhythms is that sometimes the emphasized beats are on the upbeat or otherwise syncopated.

Safira, why don't you look to the field of music pedagogy to see how music teachers teach fundamental musical terminology and how to hear it? You also need a realistic expectation with regard to how quickly your non-musically trained students will pick up the new information. You can't instantly impart what has soaked into your head over several decades.

Just counting seems to suffice for the topics I cover in my class, but I'm not sure what you are trying to teach.

Originally Posted by anala

If the D doesnt occur at the onset of the 4 or 8 count...in other words if the D is on the 3..is that still the down beat. Is the down beat always a D?

I'm just doing a quick run through in my mind of a couple rhthyms... *are* there any that don't start with D?

Get the book Rhythmic Training for Dancers. It gives you some GREAT information about rhythm and how to describe it. It's a ubergood book for anyone who has a hard time verbalizing concepts of rhythm.

I googled and found a great definition that basically said the downbeat is the One --- but depending on the rhythm, it can also be another 'accented' or strong beat within the measure.

The definition I found made it clear that in some pieces of music, it's just the one. In some it's the one and the three.. and so on. So I guess it would be the dums, since those are always accented... and maybe the accented Teks..??? but would it be called a downbeat when it's on an AND???

I'm not sure... and rather than teach myself to use that lingo properly, and then teach it to my students, I just stick with saying 'the ONE' when I mean the beginning of the measure, or the Dum when that's what I mean. Or the one and the three, or whatever.

Teaching them to hear Dums and Teks and tekatekas makes it easy to communicate and takes up my whole rhythm brain cell, and theirs!!!

Originally Posted by ssipes

I have always heard the term "downbeat" used in the same way that it is used in western music -- referring either to the first beat of a measure (e.g. the one) or the counted beats underlying the time signature (e.g. one, two, three, four), *not* referring to the the dums or the emphasized beats.

The interesting thing about Arabic rhythms is that sometimes the emphasized beats are on the upbeat or otherwise syncopated.

Safira, why don't you look to the field of music pedagogy to see how music teachers teach fundamental musical terminology and how to hear it? You also need a realistic expectation with regard to how quickly your non-musically trained students will pick up the new information. You can't instantly impart what has soaked into your head over several decades.

Just counting seems to suffice for the topics I cover in my class, but I'm not sure what you are trying to teach.

All of this was sparked by a student with a voracious appetite for learning. She's just gone through 8 weeks of my Beginner I course and is about to do it one more time before she moves up. The bug has bitten her big time and she asked me a question about telling the difference between the up and down (just one of her many detailed questions). The majority of my students are satisfied with counting, etc...but this one likes to know the "why" if there is one. And I felt terrible that I couldn't answer the question!

I'm definitely going to lean on my musician friends who teach....that's a great idea! I think I'm also going to bring my drum to class this session and do a whole class on the topic. We unfortunately don't have access to live music in my area, so its a luxury we dont' get to experience often....and they will just have to deal with my basic drumming!

Originally Posted by aziyade

Get the book Rhythmic Training for Dancers. It gives you some GREAT information about rhythm and how to describe it. It's a ubergood book for anyone who has a hard time verbalizing concepts of rhythm.

Thanks so much for the suggestion! I'm definitely going to add that to my library!

Originally Posted by elisagamal

I'm just doing a quick run through in my mind of a couple rhthyms... *are* there any that don't start with D?

From Jas's Rhythms
Sa`iidi - T-T-tkD-D-tkT-tk
karAtshi - T--kT-D-

Originally Posted by aziyade

Get the book Rhythmic Training for Dancers. It gives you some GREAT information about rhythm and how to describe it. It's a ubergood book for anyone who has a hard time verbalizing concepts of rhythm.

Is it for ME dance..I dont cross train well, this is the only dance form I have attempted and I dont have much time left!

Originally Posted by kashmir

From Jas's Rhythms

karAtshi - T--kT-D-

Karatchi is an example of a rhythm in which the "dum" is neither on a downbeat nor the main emphasized beat.

So does the term down beat have any relevance in ME music?

Originally Posted by anala

So does the term down beat have any relevance in ME music?

To ME music -- absolutely.

Is it a term ME dancers need to understand? That'll be a matter of opinion, but I don't think so. Usually when dancers/teachers use the word they mean 'the beginning of the measure.' A lot of teachers will just say 'find the one.'

If you can hear Dum Dum tekatek Dum tekatek teka then you can dance. It doesn't matter whether you say 'the downbeat' 'the one' 'the first dum' or 'the beginning of the measure,' you can find the beat, the phrase the rhythm.

A dancer needs to be able to find the beat and the rhythm. A teacher needs to be able to communicate it in meaningful ways.

I've had teachers who used the word 'downbeat' to mean the first count of a measure (the 'one'), the Dums in a rhythm, the one and three when they're accented, or just the counted beats (1,2,3,4). I've also had teachers who didn't use that word at all but communicated info about the counts to me just fine.

I think it's better not to use words I don't have a full academic understanding of... I could be using flawed language and confusing any serious music students in my class.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

To ME music -- absolutely.
I've had teachers who used the word 'downbeat' to mean the first count of a measure (the 'one'), the Dums in a rhythm, the one and three when they're accented, or just the counted beats (1,2,3,4). I've also had teachers who didn't use that word at all but communicated info about the counts to me just fine.

I think it's better not to use words I don't have a full academic understanding of... I could be using flawed language and confusing any serious music students in my class.

We need a drummer... I tried to get SuSu Pampanin to explain this to me once and she went from 0 to 60, (like many drummers, God love em) talked for about 10 minutes - till her partner saw my eyes glazing over.

Originally Posted by anala

We need a drummer... I tried to get SuSu Pampanin to explain this to me once and she went from 0 to 60, (like many drummers, God love em) talked for about 10 minutes - till her partner saw my eyes glazing over.

Well going by this drumming glossary

drums glossary - DRUM BUM - drum definitions, Music Education, Lesson Plans,

downbeat - the "main" pulse as it relates to the rest of the measure. If you have 8 eighth notes in a bar of 4/4 time, beats 1, 2, 3 and 4 would be considered the downbeat. The "and" of 1, "and" of 2, "and" of 3, and "and" of 4 would be the upbeat.

So using the above example, that would mean in a 4/4 rhythm has a downbeat on counts 1, 2, 3, 4 with everything else an upbeat.


1&2&3&4&|
DUDUDUDU|

Ahh downbeat has more than one defined meaning.

Musical Terms Used in Dancing

Downbeat:
(1) In music, the first beat of the bar as indicated by the downward stroke of the conductor's arm.
(2) Refers to whichever beats are pronounced in a bar of music. (i.e. counts 1 & 3 in 4/4 time, or all four beats)

I found this if you are into a lot of reading

How to play zills finger cymbals for belly dance and tribal belly dance.

Originally Posted by anala

If the D doesnt occur at the onset of the 4 or 8 count...in other words if the D is on the 3..is that still the down beat. Is the down beat always a D?

you mean like
teketeke dum tak
teketeke dum dum teketek dum teketak
tekdum tekedum dum teketak
etc?

I would consider these an elaboration of the "basics" where the tek replaces a dum and thus gets treated like a dum. Interesting question though, I'll have to dig into it.

If I'm not totally out rowing on deep seas here, isnt Karachi a 'fusion' rhythm put together by various rhythm particles from other rhythms? I'll have to hit up Hossam Ramzy's Rhythms of the Nile to double check, but the sound of it has a familiar ring to it to me.

DaVid

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

Well going by this drumming glossary

drums glossary - DRUM BUM - drum definitions, Music Education, Lesson Plans,

downbeat - the "main" pulse as it relates to the rest of the measure. If you have 8 eighth notes in a bar of 4/4 time, beats 1, 2, 3 and 4 would be considered the downbeat. The "and" of 1, "and" of 2, "and" of 3, and "and" of 4 would be the upbeat.
So using the above example, that would mean in a 4/4 rhythm has a downbeat on counts 1, 2, 3, 4 with everything else an upbeat.

1&2&3&4&|
DUDUDUDU|

Yes, this is exactly my understanding of it from music theory classes as well as dance/fitness teacher training.
Someone dancing or stepping on the up beat may be "on time" but looks off.

Originally Posted by HubicRuzz

Ahh downbeat has more than one defined meaning.
Musical Terms Used in Dancing
Downbeat:
(1) In music, the first beat of the bar as indicated by the downward stroke of the conductor's arm.
(2) Refers to whichever beats are pronounced in a bar of music. (i.e. counts 1 & 3 in 4/4 time, or all four beats)

Again from music theory class, this is the historical context, or "why" it's called "down beat" and "up beat".

An Egyptian dancer, say Mona Said or Shoo Shoo Amin, doing a four count (1/4 note speed) foot pattern, will usually be stepping on the even down beat; regardless of where the "dooms" are.

Originally Posted by anala

Is it for ME dance..I dont cross train well, this is the only dance form I have attempted and I dont have much time left!

"Rhythmic Training for Dancers" isn't really geared towards any particular dance form (although the video examples show ballet and modern dancers, since I'm sure that was the intended audience.) But it goes heavily into the meaning of downbeats and upbeats, and gives some excellent examples of counting a 3/4 or 6/8 rhythm in 4's -- which is what we've struggled with here in describing the "waltz" style 3/4 shimmy.

David, Uncle Mafufo told us Karachi was a rhythm from Pakistan, if that helps. I'm assuming that's true. I have heard karachi more in tribal music (old school, like Bal Anat music) than I have in Raqs Sharqi music.

Hubic, thank you. The second definition was the one I was meaning, when I said sometimes it's the one sometimes it's more than one beat in a measure. I guess you could say the accented beats in a measure -- but that's why I got confused as to whether an accented AND is considered a downbeat. I'm guessing not?

I think when we're talking about the first one, most of us just say 'the beat.' or 'on the beat.'

Upbeat means the conductor's baton swings up, and down means it settles down, right?

Sorry...I lost my hook up to the matrix last night due to local high wind conditions.

Using basic masmoudi as an example, running thru an entire measure (or bar..I am afraid I dont know the difference in terms - really untrained here) would you please note the u/d also..the 1 2345678, and indicate where the d/t are so just maybe I can "see" it. I hear it, but would love to be able to "see" it as well.

I found an interesting explanation for stress on the 2 and 4, but that is not stressing the up beat is it?
backbeat - a consistent rhythm that stresses beats 2 and 4 in common time. In other "common" time signatures, the backbeat will land elsewhere. For example, the backbeat lands on 4 and 10 in 12/8 time.

I'm so glad that I threw this out there...I'm learning so much new stuff! ..g.:

Originally Posted by anala

Sorry...I lost my hook up to the matrix last night due to local high wind conditions.

Using basic masmoudi as an example, running thru an entire measure (or bar..I am afraid I dont know the difference in terms - really untrained here) would you please note the u/d also..the 1 2345678, and indicate where the d/t are so just maybe I can "see" it. I hear it, but would love to be able to "see" it as well.

I found an interesting explanation for stress on the 2 and 4, but that is not stressing the up beat is it?
backbeat - a consistent rhythm that stresses beats 2 and 4 in common time. In other "common" time signatures, the backbeat will land elsewhere. For example, the backbeat lands on 4 and 10 in 12/8 time.

.w.: backbeat? Yikes. WTshimmy is that the name of?
Is this what Sahra is referring to by - Egyptian style having the emphasis on the second count?

Anala, Im going to give it a try - correct me if Im totally overthinking it and messing it up:
*hauls out his revision copy of the EDA handbook and starts adding additional notes in the margine as he writes*

Masmoudi - primary/most common usage in parenthasis - may have layered secondary layer on top

Down beat (step, primary accent)
1----2---3--4--
DD | T | D | T T (- teke bridge)

Upbeat (secondary accent, weight transfer)
--1----2---3--4
DD | T | D | T T (- teke bridge)

backbeat (emphasis)
-----1------2--
DD | T | D | T T (- teke bridge)

OMG, my eyes are crossing and my brain feels like I just did math... lol.
Is that somewhat something we could agree upon? if not, what am I missing out on or not describing correctly?

Lauren, I dont know if you'd agree, but both Arab music and dance operates with several "planes". Example:
plane 1: down beat - step on it (weight change/transition)
plane 2: accent from hip on down and up beat (technical display)
plane 3: emphasis on backbeat (cultural aknowledgement)
plane 4: expression and undulating feel throughout the phrase (flow)
plane 5: shimmy on top of everything to show off :P
plane 6: everything comes back to center after "having done its job" (relation to spine and center of body)
plane 7: communication, relay of emotion - range - feel (maqam)

PS: now smile, play your zagat, balance on a drum and watch out for that waiter!

Aziyade: aaah, its imported from Pakistan to Arab music vocabulary then. Like the Vox is imported from Europe (Fox)....ah, in the end it's ALL Indian, I know it LOL :) joking.