Thread: Students performing teacher’s choreographies at their discretion

Hi! I have been lurking on bhuz, and this is my first post. Hopefully it is posted in the proper place and format.

I am curious to know instructor’s opinions about when and where it is appropriate for students to perform their choreography. When a class is learning a choreography primary purpose of a studio show, when is it proper for students to perform it elsewhere in the bellydance community (For example, a hafla sponsored by another studio)?

Is it ok for the student’s to have the altitude that they can perform the dance wherever they want, as long is credit is given? The logic behind this argument was that when one learns choreography at a workshop, workshop teachers typically simply request that credit is given. Where is the line between choreography given at workshops and group choreography given in a regular class? Does it make a difference when one is in a troupe or company?

I have been encountering strong conflicting opinions on this matter lately, and it would be wonderful to have opinions from people that are removed from the situation, so I can make a fair decision.

Thanks for your help
-Kate

I'm not an instructor, but my opinion is that I would never perform my instructor's choreography without her permission. At performances arranged by her, or to which I'm invited by her to perform, the permission is implicit. If it was a hafla organized by someone else, I would ask (and, of course, give credit if permission to use the choreo was given).

I think it's similar to being with a troupe. The choreos belong to the troupe and not to the individuals, IMO.

as a new belly dancer, whos incredibly greatful to her instructor for being so open and helpful as i get my footing in belly dance, i would say one should be able to perform choreographies they learn anywhere. its up to you if u want to give credit, for me if it really was truly 100% my instructors choreography id make sure everyone at the hafla or recital knew that she was master behind the dance, she conceived it, i was blessed enough to dance it. its up to you, and if its appropriate i think too. troupes and companies are usually under the direction of someone, and i do think performing a piece from a show the troupe was doing unauthorized would be a big mistep, even if due credit was give, a troupe is a team and even if u're a soloist, i think it would break and unspoken expectation. just my opinions :) good luck!

One difference is that the WS teacher has usually travelled to that location whereas
the local teacher will be performing that choreography in that location.

Ultimately, the choreographer dictates the terms since it is her/his creation.

However, in the world according to me:
1. If you pay to learn a choreo, as in off an instructional video you have purchased, or during a regular class or workshop, the choreographer *should* (again IMHO) grant the payee's the right to perform the choregraphy with credits given. Since the world doesn't always operate according to how I think it should, I always ask if I think I want to perform a choreo of someone elses.

2. If you learn choreos as a troupe member, the terms will likely be different, and in my world the artistic director controls the choreos more tightly, because it would be counterproductive to the troupe if individuals that either broke away from the group or started doing solo work were scooping the troupe's repertoire.

For me, the choreographies I produce and teach are owned by the school where I teach, because they purchase them, and they are learning tools for the class as well as fun dances to do. They are periodically reworked and used again, especially when new teachers start working. My position is that students have my permission to perform the dance whenever and wherever they please *after* the dance has been performed with their class as part of the school show. They do not have permission to teach it.

So, the dance I am currently teaching may be performed by any of my students as a solo or a group number anywhere at all, *after* our July Club Orientale. I ask that they credit both me and the school.

I have only once been asked by a troupe member to perform one of our choreographies as a solo, and I gave permission freely as long as she credited me as the creator of the piece.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Ultimately, the choreographer dictates the terms since it is her/his creation.

However, in the world according to me:
1. If you pay to learn a choreo, as in off an instructional video you have purchased, or during a regular class or workshop, the choreographer *should* (again IMHO) grant the payee's the right to perform the choregraphy with credits given.

2. If you learn choreos as a troupe member, the terms will likely be different, and in my world the artistic director controls the choreos more tightly, because it would be counterproductive to the troupe if individuals that either broke away from the group or started doing solo work were scooping the troupe's repertoire.

I agree.

I always create class choreography with the intention that the student may perform it anywhere she wishes, provided she identifies me as the choreographer whenever it is practical to do so.

I would object, however, to the student teaching my choreography to other people who never took my classes. If a person wants to learn my choreography, that person should pay for and attend my classes. There are circumstances under which I would consider making an exception to this and allowing one of my students to teach it to another person - so if one of my students wanted to do this, they should contact me to discuss.

I too agree that troupe choreographies are a different matter, and should not be performed except as part of director-approved situations.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I agree.

I always create class choreography with the intention that the student may perform it anywhere she wishes, provided she identifies me as the choreographer whenever it is practical to do so.

I would object, however, to the student teaching my choreography to other people who never took my classes. If a person wants to learn my choreography, that person should pay for and attend my classes. There are circumstances under which I would consider making an exception to this and allowing one of my students to teach it to another person - so if one of my students wanted to do this, they should contact me to discuss.

I too agree that troupe choreographies are a different matter, and should not be performed except as part of director-approved situations.

Ditto.

I think asking the teacher is always the best idea. If you're no longer speaking to the teacher for some reason, she'd probably rather you didn't perform her choreos anyway. ..g.:

As an instructor, I know I've felt a bit miffed when I heard a student went and performed my choreography as a solo, at a showcase. On one had, my rational brain says "I put it out there for my students to use" but on the other hand, I wanted to have been asked, and have been assured that proper credit would be given.

So I say ask first - and respect it if the teacher says no. I personally would not be likely to deny permission as long as I knew I'd be credited.

I agree with Shira too, but I do tend to drop a choreo when I'm a bit bored with it and if anyone wants to do anything they like with it after that they are welcome! my husband who is a songwriter always points out that once your children have left home you really have no control over what they get up to... I just would be a bit annoyed if someone passed it off as their own... NOT ON! IMHO

Originally Posted by bookishbelly

Hi! I have been lurking on bhuz, and this is my first post. Hopefully it is posted in the proper place and format.

I am curious to know instructor’s opinions about when and where it is appropriate for students to perform their choreography. When a class is learning a choreography primary purpose of a studio show, when is it proper for students to perform it elsewhere in the bellydance community (For example, a hafla sponsored by another studio)?

Is it ok for the student’s to have the altitude that they can perform the dance wherever they want, as long is credit is given? The logic behind this argument was that when one learns choreography at a workshop, workshop teachers typically simply request that credit is given. Where is the line between choreography given at workshops and group choreography given in a regular class? Does it make a difference when one is in a troupe or company?

I have been encountering strong conflicting opinions on this matter lately, and it would be wonderful to have opinions from people that are removed from the situation, so I can make a fair decision.

Thanks for your help
-Kate

Hi Kate, first of all - congratulations for coming out of lurkation, and what an excellent first post. It's a great question you pose and I know different people handle these situations differently.

In my opinion if you - in a workshop - pay to be exposed to how movements can be combined together - then go dance it as you want. If you pay to understand artistic vision, musicality, intent, expression and projection - then you'd better do it well before you put it on stage and degrade yourself, the dance, the choreographer, the music and the artistic vision behind the piece. May sound harsh, but most workshops are not taught at that level - so it's very rare that you encounter this "problem". I've seen like 4 ppl off of the top of my head that I could mention that has such a focus in their work: Momo Kadous, Mahmoud Reda, Yousri Sharif and Lena Helt. (I'm sure there are more that I just cant think of after 1/2 a day of rehearsals and at 1:30 am in the morning).

If the instructor does not clearly state that they have a specific artistic vision that's integrity has to be upheld and their name has to be mentioned along with that - then it's a free for all. IMHO, if the choreographer doesnt respect/apply these aspects to their own work to have an artistic vision behind it or to let people know that they actually HAD a vision involved - then it's too much to expect that anyone else treat their work that way too, isnt it?

As far as performing a studio choreography outside the studio - ooooh, I'd be pissed off, frankly, if one of my girls put one of their choreographies on stage anywhere else before our annual Expose (speaking of solos). That'd be display of lack of character and display of lack of respect for the hard work they have put in and the educational process of the EDA. My girls are very curteous and well mannered though, I'm blessed, they'd never dance the solos we're working without at least consulting my opinion. As for AFTER that one annual show - their individual pieces are free for all to use as they want (which means, I may use them for workshops etc as well unless exclusivity fees/rights have been paid/signed).

As for EDA DC material - it is contracted to the EDA DC and each dancer has to sign a contract with the DC in order to attend rehearsals etc. It's clearly stated that unauthorized or misrepresenting usage of the EDA DC material is subject to immediate dismissal from the EDA as a whole, not just the DC. We do not tolerate such lack of integrity to be a flaw in one of our representatives. Our dance company members are an example for others in our academy (and others in the dance scene). I hold both myself and them up to pretty extremely high standards.

Of course, that's me talking from my personal point of view. People in workshops, no matter what level of workshop or dancer, want to show off what they've learned and "paid for". So, it's really up to the instructor to give a nod in direction of professionalism and character by saying "please tell them ithey can blame me if they dont like the choreography"...lol.

Group classes - it's the teacher's decision. You are a student at an "institution" - no matter if it's just the local Y - where you have a personal responsibility to represent the institution you belong to in the best possible way. I would say - it doesnt hurt to ask the instructor...the worst you could get is a NO...and then it's up to you to obide by the answer or just be disrespectful, unprofessional and go ahead and use the material still....

As for credits, interestingly enough - I find myself in the position where I work with someone and prep them for competitions and such and I tell them NOT to disclose who the choreographer/coach is until the whole event is over, if anyone asks. I dont want anyone's opinion to be colored by who's choreography/student it is, if they like the dancer at all or by any prejudices they may have against what I represent just by being who I am.

I think I covered all your questions with that. Hope that helps.

PS: Our academy works with different fees for different choreography services, coaching services, competition preparation services and so forth. All choreographies are either taught in privates OR in EDA DC. Our regular classes are never choreography focused, although workshops may at times be.

I make a distinction between a choreography learnt in class and one for a troupe. I feel a class choreography should be able to be performed - with credit - and assuming that it is up to scratch. (I have however been to workshops where the instructor has been adamant they the participants may never perform the choreography in public or require permission ie you send a video of your performance and you may be allowed to perform it)

A troupe choreography is different. It is part of the troupe repetoire and if a dancer leaves or is performing with another group they should not use any troupe choreographies. Ideally this should be spelt out in writing.

A problem arises when a teacher treats her class like an informal troupe.

Hi Kate, thank you for your thoughtful post. As you can see, the answer varies with each artist. I give full rights to the choreography to anyone who purchases the class, with a request that the student credits the original choreographer. Many new students would not typically know to do that or how to do that unless the instructor provides them with the information.

Happy dancing!

Sabra

goddesshour.com
bellydancingforeverywoman.com

Originally Posted by kashmir

A problem arises when a teacher treats her class like an informal troupe.

Very true.

I've been the student of both types of teacher. One forbade us from ever for any reason using her choreography outside of class. The other has actively encouraged her students to perform her choreographies. I think the best bet is to ask the teacher, respect her/his views, and then give credit if performing it.

David's point about competitions is something I wouldn't have thought of, and I think it's good advice.

As a side note, something to watch out for is performing a choreography that you don't do well or doesn't fit your style or look. If you're going to dance someone's choreography, then dance it. Don't make it a laundry list of steps. I've seen some dancers get bogged down by concentrating so hard on doing the exact steps that it looked stiff.

I say just ask and respect your teacher's wishes.

I've been lucky to the be the student of teachers who say once they teach it, it's ours. They only ask we credit them and do well with it!

As mentioned, each teacher has different preferences, so I think the best thing is to ask them directly.

For me - class choreographies are for the student to use as they please, so long as credit is given to me as the choreographer for the piece (where possible). They may NOT teach it. If a student is going pro, then I prefer they use their own material, but wouldn't make a fuss over it, either.

Troupe choreographies are for the troupe to perform together, only. I don't want to have the material recognizable to the public when it's time to use the choreographies for troupe performance. It would just make more work for everyone to learn and polish new pieces to keep things fresh and varied.

Reading between the lines, it would appear that you want to perform a choreography you learned in class at an outside venue as a solo, and your teacher would prefer that you didn't. Is that a correct understanding of the situation?

When you are paying someone to teach you a choreography, the teacher should make it clear up front whether: (A) you are learning the routine as something you can use and/or modify however and whenever you want, with credit given as specified, (B) you are learning a piece that will be owned/shared/performed by an organization (class, studio, troupe) that operates as its own recognizable dance entity, or (C) it is just an academic exercise for the benefit of understanding how a choreographer puts movement to music, and as such, you do not have permission to use it without personal approval of that person, contingent on your demonstrating that you fulfill the creator's artistic vision when you perform it. It sounds like you are in a fuzzy area between (A) and (B).

If your teacher does not want you performing a piece, regardless of whether you volunteer to give credit, you should respect the teacher's wishes and not perform it. Of course, the real question is why the teacher is holding this position. Has there been a problem in your area with credit not being given properly at some events? (Just because you say you will give credit, it doesn't automatically follow that credit will be given in the program or by the MC.) Is the teacher concerned that you will not perform the piece to the appropriate standards? (Is the teacher using this as a polite way of saying, "Sweetie, you're not ready to go solo"?) Is the teacher afraid that if you are pimping her dance all around town, she won't be able to use it for the purpose she created it? (Is she afraid of oversaturating the market with this number?) Is the teacher an immature, possessive, control freak who tries to micromanage, if not outright thwart, what her students try to do? (Do you need to find a different teacher?) Has this issue come up before with other classmates, and if so, how did they handle it?

I dance solo and as a member of a troupe. When I need a solo piece and don't want to choreograph it myself, I go ask for a solo specifically created for me, with the implied consent that I'll be able to dance it when I please. I use private lessons for that. I would not teach my instructor's choreography without her explicit permission, even though when I do teach sessions, it's as a part of her dance school. I perform troupe choreographies solo (when appropriate, and with permission) after they have been performed by the troupe in public, on stage. Until that point, I may use the music but I do not use the choreography. Frankly, I've found that, as a troupe member, it's really not a good idea to use troupe choreos "around town" anyway. There's too big a chance that someone else from the troupe is performing it, too, and that people have already seen it. Same for workshops. As a matter of fact, at a recent hafla, 2 students from 2 different, neighboring, cities performed the same choreography in the same set because they both learned it at the same workshop....

I always give permission ahead of time for my students to perform my choreographies with or without me as long as they give me credit. I hope that I teach my students how to dance well enough that they will do it justice.

One of two problems I have run into (infrequently) has to do with taste, which can only be taught to one who wishes to learn it. It isn't hard to tramp up a belly dance choreography. The other problem occurs when the student either doesn't rehearse enough or isn't a good enough dancer to do the piece. Generally, if they aren't a good enough dancer, they don't learn the piece well enough to even pretend to perform it, though.

I've performed choreo from my teacher, but I always ask for her permission first. She doesn't mind, but of course I will not take credit for it.

I also usually change a few things around so it isn't exactly the same.

Thanks everyone for their thoughtful comments! This is a wonderful introduction to posting on bhuz.

To add more details to the situation, I am new to teaching bellydance (I started teaching a year and a half ago). The owner of the studio I teach at currently has me teaching a choreography class. The students in my class recently came to me and stated that they want to perform the dance wherever they want because they have paid for it.

Although I trust the women in my class, the “wherever they want” makes me anxious because I want to preserve the integrity of bellydance in my community, and if a dance is to be performed, it should be practiced, polished and in an appropriate student venue. On the flip side, I personally don’t take offence in my choreographies being performed, it is a complement and I feel it is a wonderful way to share the joy of dance.

I am unfortunately stuck in the middle because the owner of the studio does not want dances learned at her studio to be performed at any events not related to the studio. She has stated however that because it is my choreography I have to make the decision.

I despise all this drama and hate to be in the situation where my decision will make me the bad guy in someone’s eyes, so I very much appreciate all the wonderful unbiased opinions I have received here.

I recently decided to re-teach an old choregraphy to some of my students to perform in this year's show. I found out that one of my students who was in the class the first time we learned the choreo, and is learning it again, has been performing it for the last 4 years (I don't know where - she is far from being a pro-level but I know she has other teachers and participates in their shows, and does pro bono shows as well). This bothers me for two reasons - (1) she never asked if she could perform the solo, with or without credit. And I am fairly certain she is not giving me credit because the same student tried to perform a dance choreographed by her other teacher in my show last year, and was trying to pass the choreo off as her own (that teacher actually found out about the student's intentions before the show and told her she was NOT allowed to use that choreo). Had she asked me I would have given her permission, but stressed that I want to be given credit whenever it is used. (2) She has obviously been doing the choreography incorrectly, because now that she has to do it with a group, she is having to "relearn" some sections because she has been doing them wrong for so long, it is now ingrained in her memory. So, not only is she performing without my permission, but she is performing the dance grossly incorrectly.

So, I feel that my students should be allowed to use my choreography only if they ask me first, give me proper credit, and do the piece justice. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out that way!

Originally Posted by laura 2

I have only once been asked by a troupe member to perform one of our choreographies as a solo, and I gave permission freely as long as she credited me as the creator of the piece.

I've used two pieces by instructors and both times I was told to say this. Plus I used part of a choreography by Rania in a YouTube video and she told me to do the same thing. I think most instructors want the credit for their creation, and rightly so. I am not an instructor but I have created my own choreographies and I would want the same thing as well.

Originally Posted by bookishbelly

Thanks everyone for their thoughtful comments! This is a wonderful introduction to posting on bhuz.

To add more details to the situation, I am new to teaching bellydance (I started teaching a year and a half ago). The owner of the studio I teach at currently has me teaching a choreography class. The students in my class recently came to me and stated that they want to perform the dance wherever they want because they have paid for it.

Although I trust the women in my class, the “wherever they want” makes me anxious because I want to preserve the integrity of bellydance in my community, and if a dance is to be performed, it should be practiced, polished and in an appropriate student venue. On the flip side, I personally don’t take offence in my choreographies being performed, it is a complement and I feel it is a wonderful way to share the joy of dance.

I am unfortunately stuck in the middle because the owner of the studio does not want dances learned at her studio to be performed at any events not related to the studio. She has stated however that because it is my choreography I have to make the decision.

I despise all this drama and hate to be in the situation where my decision will make me the bad guy in someone’s eyes, so I very much appreciate all the wonderful unbiased opinions I have received here.

Ah, drama ....

IMHO, the Easy Way Out is to tell your students "The studio owner prefers that dances learned in her studio be performed only at studio-related events. Because we ARE in HER studio, I will respect her wishes."

BUT the only way to pull this off successfully & ethically is to stick to this yourself - and don't use that choreography at non-studio events, even tho it's yours.

In the future, cover yourself by telling students up front the STUDIO rules are choreo learned in the studio are used only at studio events. If they want chore for a non-studio event, they must hire you for private lessons OUTSIDE the studio (I hope the studio owner does not expect you to teach exclusively at that studio!!).

Personally, I don't mind if students use my choreo or change it up or teach it to others.

Finally, I would not teach any other choreos at that studio, unless the studio owner agrees in advance that it will be exempt from the studio-only rule.

Originally Posted by bookishbelly

The students in my class recently came to me and stated that they want to perform the dance wherever they want because they have paid for it.

...

I am unfortunately stuck in the middle because the owner of the studio does not want dances learned at her studio to be performed at any events not related to the studio. She has stated however that because it is my choreography I have to make the decision.

Choreography is intellectual property (provided it meets certain guidelines), and it is well within any choreographer's rights to decide who can or cannot use it and to be credited for it when it is used. I'm a writer, so the issue of intellectual property interests me. I'm also a teacher, and often have to deal with concerns about plagiarism. I know how difficult it can be to get some people to understand that creators have the right to control what happens to their creations, unless they specifically choose to relinquish that control. I don't believe that paying to learn a choreography, in a class or in a workshop, automatically transfers ownership or control of that creation onto the learner. I can think of many examples in other forms of expression where that would not be the case.

If I buy a video, I do not have the right to show that video publicly, distribute it, charge money for it, etc.

If I buy a book, I do not have the right to reprint or publish sections of that book without permission.

If I take a writing class, I do not have the right to use my instructor's exact words in my own writing.

If I take music lessons, and I learn a song that my instructor wrote, I do not suddenly have the rights to that piece of music.

So, I say that your students are not correct. However, that's not really the issue here, as I understand it. The issue is whether or not you or the studio has ownership of your choreos that you teach there. If you have ownership, then it's up to you whether or not you choose to give permission. Do you hae a contract with this studio? Does the contract state that all choreographies taught there are the property of the studio?

From what you say, the owner has stated that it's up to you, so you can give permission if you want to. However, if you're not comfortable with giving that permission, then you are within your rights to withhold it, IMO. Also, you may want to consider what would be best for your future relationship with that studio.

Cont'd...

Cont'd...

Here's a link to a brief discussion of a similar situation, in case this might be helpful to you:

Intellectual Property - Who Owns The Intellectual Property Rights In Choreographed Routines? Q&A Archive on Lawyers.com

And, another article states that: Choreographic works have been expressly copyrightable under the Federal Copyright Law in the United States for sixteen years [i.e. since January 1978, so 21 years, now]. (Copyright of Choreographic Works), although it is rare for this to go to court.

And, in a UK article: Copyright subsists in an original dramatic work and it is expressly provided by statute that "dramatic work" includes a work of dance or mime. However, the two essential requirements are that the work must be "original" and must be recorded in some written or permanent form, such as notation or film. (The Stage / Advice)

So, it seems that a choreographer has legal rights to his/her work provided it is original and recorded in some way (e.g. written down).

In my opinion, though, it is not merely a matter of what is legal, but also of what is moral and professional, and I think the moral and professional thing to do is to obtain permission to use someone else's choreography, and to refrain from using it if permission is withheld.

Apologies for misunderstanding--it sounds like you are more in the middle than at one of the ends because you are caught between the studio owner and the students. In that case, I will amend my original point to include that the studio owner should have clarified her position on usage of choreographies outside of the studio before asking you to teach there, rather than waiting for the situation to develop and then leaving you to resolve the matter. It's not like the issue of students wanting to use choreographies on their own has never come up before....

If you are concerned that the students will not be able to do your choreography proper justice, you can use the studio owner's policy as a defense. Unfortunately, students who are dead set on performing are going to perform anyway, good sense and self respect be damned. I suppose one thing you might do is to tell them that in the interest of helping them, you will videotape their performance. If they really are not ready to be on stage, perhaps seeing themselves on video might shame some sense into them. Otherwise, maybe the only option is to have a meeting with the students and the owner and make sure that everyone understands that the official position no longer allows outside performance of studio choreographies without express permission. A united front between you and the owner combined with peer pressure might be the best weapon you have.