Thread: Teaching Someone's Choreography.

It seems very odd to me but I have encountered teachers from everywhere that teach choreographies from other famous dancers (Randa, Raqia etc.) and have then their own workshop to teach the dance for other students. They give credit to the orginal choregrapher. Is this the norm and is it ok. If then so when I teach can I teach someone else's choregraphy from out of state and then teach it for money as a workshop aside from my regular classes?

Just Checking

I don't think this is the norm.

As to whether it is "ok", it is if teacher #2 gets permission to do so from the original choreographer. I would suspect that such permissions would probaby come at a cost, and would not just be freely handed out.

I've never been to a workshop where the instructor was teaching someone else's choreography.

I've been to regular classes where they teach someone else's choreography from a workshop the instructor attended. I figured that was okay because it wasn't quite the same as charging for a workshop but then it is also advertising for the original choreographer too, I thought.

I have also attended classes where the instructor used a choreography from a video but I thought that was chintzy because I can buy the video myself.

I just think it is terribly lame if a teacher *can't* come up with her own original choreographies to teach for her classes. I think that if someone doesn't have that level of creativity and expertise, maybe they shouldn't be teaching.

I do realize there are situations where teaching someone else's choreos isn't due to incompetence.

my teacher will sometimes incorporate bits of choreography or combinations learned at a workshop into her choreography. so, its not exactly the same but 'inspired by' the workshop choreography.

I just thought it was odd. Someone was advertising teaching so and so's dance from a workshop she took.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I just think it is terribly lame if a teacher *can't* come up with her own original choreographies to teach for her classes. I think that if someone doesn't have that level of creativity and expertise, maybe they shouldn't be teaching.

I do realize there are situations where teaching someone else's choreos isn't due to incompetence.

In my particular case, my instructor had a choreography we all really wanted to learn so it was a treat for us. But if this is the norm, then I agree - it is lame.

i do not know much about this, but if i teach it, i hope and pray it is useful.if you pay for it, it is yours!
but to view one on, say youtube.because it is on the web...does that make it fare game?

One year at MEDINA Hadia taught an old Raqia Hassan choreography from her 1995 tour. At the time I thought the choreography was Hadia's (although she apparently HAD mentioned that it wasn't -- I just wasn't listening) so I was surprised to see it on Raqia's video later.

I would have been really annoyed, but Hadia had a completely different interpretation of the choreo than Raqia did, and I found comparing and contrasting the two interpretations geekily interesting.


Here, we've taught "OPC" -- other people's choreography -- but only for region-specific or ethnic dances like a Bedouin choreography, a Khaliji, and a Banat Mazin style Ghawazee dance. We always get calls for ethnic dances, and I don't feel like enough of an expert on any particular dance to do my own choreography. I know it probably sounds like laziness, but we really try to be as authentic as we possibly can, so when in doubt, we use a choreo from someone FROM that region.

I think since you have permission to teach someone's else choreo that is ok...

Like when Jillina come to Atlanta and taugh a choreo she said the choreo now is yours... you do whatever you want... so if I decided teach in my class I would not have any problems... I do not think I would be comfortable teaching as a workshop....
But is my personal opinion....

Yep, I agree with Kalinka. If the instuctor gives you their blessing, than it's fair game, BUT charging money to teach this at a workshop is crossing the ethical boundary. I can't imagine Raqia or ANY teacher giving you their choreo. and saying, "Here use this and make money from the sweat of my back". Nope, it's wrong.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Here, we've taught "OPC" -- other people's choreography -- but only for region-specific or ethnic dances like a Bedouin choreography, a Khaliji, and a Banat Mazin style Ghawazee dance. We always get calls for ethnic dances, and I don't feel like enough of an expert on any particular dance to do my own choreography. I know it probably sounds like laziness, but we really try to be as authentic as we possibly can, so when in doubt, we use a choreo from someone FROM that region.

One of the choreographies our instructor has taught us, and that we perform, is a specific folkloric choreo by Denise Enan. However, my instructor uses it with Denise Enan's permission.

Originally Posted by zamora

i do not know much about this, but if i teach it, i hope and pray it is useful.if you pay for it, it is yours!
but to view one on, say youtube.because it is on the web...does that make it fare game?

I learned Rania's choreography from a video but it wasn't to the whole song. So I filled in a good portion of it with my own creation. I put in the narrative "original choreography by Rania Bossonis with a contribution by Fotia." But I didn't make any money off of it.

I too have heard instructors say that now that we have paid for it, it's ours, but I personally like to give credit to the original creator because that's just my personal feeling.

As a perpetual student...and small time teacher - my opinion follows. If someone was lucky enough to go to say... A Dina intensive...I would pay - and be glad to do it - that person (who was also a competent teacher) to bring some of that back home to me. Not just the choreo, mind you, that would be secondary, but the flavor and the spice. Sometimes that is easier to transmit that in a whole choreo, rather than here is move 23 and combo A B C. Really, for those who are remote...poor, or both, I happen to think that it is a good thing to do. With full disclosure, of course! But I wouldnt dream of doing this with material other than the stuff from "THE BIG STAR" from the "THE REAL AREA"! My fellow dancer across the state line doesnt count!

Originally Posted by Fotia

I too have heard instructors say that now that we have paid for it, it's ours, but I personally like to give credit to the original creator because that's just my personal feeling.

I went to a workshop show once, in a fairly big town, where a new-to-the-bellydance-community dancer performed what was obviously Jillina's first drum solo choreography, after making a big deal about how she spent weeks choreographing it. ,r:;

Another show mishap was when a troupe performed a "new troupe choreography" that they had stolen from Youtube. It wouldn't have been all that funny, but for the fact that the original dancer was IN the audience, so all of us around her heard about it. Some words were exchanged after the show, I understand ...

Just give credit when credit is due. It will make you appear gracious and you won't have to worry about looking foolish.

It seems to me that the rule is that you shouldn't teach someone else's choreography as a workshop if, by doing so, you prevent them from making money off of their own intellectual property. In other words, if you go to a workshop, you shouldn't turn around and teach the same material as your own workshop if the original teacher could be teaching it in your area--and no, it shouldn't matter if your workshop is cheaper than sponsoring the "real deal."

This allows for obvious exclusions--such as if you came back from six months of working with Raqia in Cairo, and she gave you permission to teach what the two of you were working on, or if you had studied with someone who is no longer teaching and you want to preserve and present their choreographies (e.g., Bobby Farrah). It doesn't allow you to teach what is on someone's videos or recorded performances without their permission--that's just stealing. Of course, if you go to a workshop and the teacher gives you permission to share what you learned with your students or troupemates, you should respect that it doesn't automatically follow that you can take your act on the road to his or her detriment.

The bottom line is that if you are making another dancer compete with you for workshop dollars to teach their own material, you are in the wrong.

Originally Posted by anala

As a perpetual student...and small time teacher - my opinion follows. If someone was lucky enough to go to say... A Dina intensive...I would pay - and be glad to do it - that person (who was also a competent teacher) to bring some of that back home to me. Not just the choreo, mind you, that would be secondary, but the flavor and the spice. Sometimes that is easier to transmit that in a whole choreo, rather than here is move 23 and combo A B C. Really, for those who are remote...poor, or both, I happen to think that it is a good thing to do. With full disclosure, of course! But I wouldnt dream of doing this with material other than the stuff from "THE BIG STAR" from the "THE REAL AREA"! My fellow dancer across the state line doesnt count!

This is how I feel too. Not everyone is able to learn from these people - not everyone has the money - and sometimes the best way to get an understanding of a certain style or flavour is to learn the dance and perform it. Is it really fair of us to hoard our extra studies and not include them in our classes when we can?

I agree though that it is better to teach a star's choreo in class, over a period of weeks or months - so in a way you are all benefiting from really digging into the piece - than to teach it as a workshop, which really does seem a little too much like ripping off the original artist (unless you have permission).

Originally Posted by ssipes

I just think it is terribly lame if a teacher *can't* come up with her own original choreographies to teach for her classes. I think that if someone doesn't have that level of creativity and expertise, maybe they shouldn't be teaching.

I do realize there are situations where teaching someone else's choreos isn't due to incompetence.

I disagree. What about the situation when the choreography specifically incorporates and codifies a particular style? For instance a Bamboutiyeh choreography. Personally I think it is safer to share the style by sticking closely to a choreograohy taught in a workshop by someone who really knows the style, than making up your own and totally missing the point. With a new style you need to have studied it over a period of years, at least from a couple of reliable sources - if not first hand - before branching out and creating your own interpretation. Even more so if you are teaching it - rather than just performing it one off.

Beata and Horacio Cifuentes have an interesting note on their webpage about their stance on legal right to choreo, etc

Oriental Fantasy

I don't think there can be a hard and fast rule, other than 'It's OK if the original choreographer specifically says it's OK.'

Choreographies are intellectual property. When you sell intellectual property, you decide which rights to sell. It's different every time.

When I bought stories from writers, or images from photographers, the rights were negotiated and contracted for individually EVERY time. So even if I bought two stories from the same writer at the same time, I might be allowed to print one of them in the magazine one time but not put it on my website, or I might have unlimited rights to use it as I wanted. (and the writer may or may not retain rights to continue selling the piece to OTHER magazines and websites a well).

Each instance had to be spelled out. So I'm assuming it's the same with choreo.

Law and ethics don't always go hand in hand, but in this case I feel like the law is a good guideline. Don't do it unless they tell you it's OK.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I do realize there are situations where teaching someone else's choreos isn't due to incompetence.

Right. Not dance, here, but if you're a band director, you're not always going to create your own march to teach the band, right? But you won't claim Sousa's as your own work, either. Or, if you're a ballet instructor, you might teach the dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy, but you're not gonna say you created it, right?

In my opinion, if the original creator gives permission to use and teach the choreography, there's nothing wrong with a teacher passing it along. Look, some people are improvisors, some are great dancers, but not everyone is a choreographer.

Some musicians are fantastic guitarists, singers, etc... but not all are songwriters. Let's not assume that because someone isn't skilled at choreography they aren't "creative" or "talented" at what they do.

Teaching a video choreography is a little different, because you can buy the video and learn it at home.

I think I might be willing to learn from someone who has studied with a great for an extended period and who taught a choreo as a method of learning the style. I can't think of a time when I would pay to learn what someone learned in a workshop though.

Also, if someone other than the creator tried to teach a video choreography I'd be pissed - esp if it was from one of out contemporaries.

First of all, if you don't specify that it's video content, you're misrepresenting. But also, unless there are circumstances I can't conceive, why would I want to learn your version of her dance, unless you were some sort of expert?

I think it's just plain wrong to hold a workshop to teach a choreo that you learned from someone else. If you can't come up with your own material to teach you shouldn't be teaching a workshop in the first place.

I personally wouldn't even teach someone else's choreo in a classroom setting. At most, I might borrow some ideas but that's it. I can come up with enough of my own ideas. I don't need to be copying someone else.

I have seen dancers and troupes try to pass off other dancers choreos as their own and that just makes me mad. I spend a lot of time putting choreos together. And I don't mind at all if my students use it. But I can't stand it when someone takes the credit for someone else's work.

I definitely think it's a bad idea to hold a workshop and teach someone else's choreography. I think of it as being almost undercutting...why can't the students take the original workshop? And also, if I were a student I would want to learn it from the actual source anyway.

I've been having thoughts though about something similar and i can't decide if I feel like i'm doing something wrong or not. I have a group of girls that right now are acting as my "troupe" (although they are all in college here and wont really be here for long).

Anyway, there's been workshops were most of our dancers attend and we will add the dance to some of our shows (crediting the dancer of course). We refer to it amongst ourselves as "the so-and-so dance" so obviously none of the dancers would ever think it was MY choreography... and I'm certainly cabable of choreographing myself (and I do, and we use those as well). We just pay all this money to go learn the dances and everyone is excited about it and wants to perform it, you know?

Anyway, We always do original choreography if we perform in other places (bigger cities and such where others may have actually learned the other dances) and I don't think it's bad for us to dance this stuff really.

My issue is, there will always be a few of our girls who can't make it to the workshop for some reason (work, funds, have to go to a wedding, or something) but since we polish everything in troupe practice, they all end up learning everything regardless. I don't know if that is taboo or if it's okay. I know that when I teach choreography workshops, I would rather everyone come and learn it from me, but I expect people to take it and USE it and go teach their troupe and perform it (giving me credit). Maybe that's just me... I dont'know

Originally Posted by PetiteNadirah

My issue is, there will always be a few of our girls who can't make it to the workshop for some reason (work, funds, have to go to a wedding, or something) but since we polish everything in troupe practice, they all end up learning everything regardless. I don't know if that is taboo or if it's okay. I know that when I teach choreography workshops, I would rather everyone come and learn it from me, but I expect people to take it and USE it and go teach their troupe and perform it (giving me credit). Maybe that's just me... I dont'know

I understand your frustration. It's hard to know what to do in these situations, especially when 8 out of 10 group members DID pay for the workshop and you feel like your group as a whole has a big investment in it.

For the most part, I won't teach other dancer's choreographies to my group. I've learned that if even show them a few combos, they gradually stop attending workshops! I believe their thinking is 'why should I spend all that money if Lauren's going to teach us the highlights anyway?' Then I get frustrated because they're not growing ,supporting the local communtiy, etc.

Until recently, I mostly just took workshops as learning opportunities and didn't perform the choreos.

Just recently, I've started asking the student(s) who attended the workshop to spend a little time before and after class to polish and practice and only those who attended the workshop will perform the dance. I'm *hoping* this system will encourage the others to attend more workshops so they can be in more numbers.

It seems the only fair thing to do. Why should one student pay $100 to go to a workshop -- PLUS pay to attend the classes where I teach it to others -- and others get the same choreo and performance opportunities for so much less money and committment? Dancers who attend more workshops *should* get to dance more, and this system takes me out of making those decisions.

It's trickier, though, when 8 out of 10 dancers have attended the workshop. One time I did teach the choreo to the others, AND purchased the instructors [very expensive] video, too. I felt like as a group we invested a lot in that choreo, and in this case it WAS a group choreo. We haven't performed that choreo yet, and to be honest I feel a little creepy about it.

wow, I'm long-winded tonight. Even more than usual. Sorry.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I disagree. What about the situation when the choreography specifically incorporates and codifies a particular style? For instance a Bamboutiyeh choreography. Personally I think it is safer to share the style by sticking closely to a choreograohy taught in a workshop by someone who really knows the style, than making up your own and totally missing the point. With a new style you need to have studied it over a period of years, at least from a couple of reliable sources - if not first hand - before branching out and creating your own interpretation. Even more so if you are teaching it - rather than just performing it one off.

But if you don´t know for example bamtoutiyeh well enough to feel confident that you are doing it right whilst doing your own stuff should you really teach it? Personally I wouldn´t, I would send my students to someone who can.

I think it´s really strange to teach other peoples stuff, why wouldn´t you want teach your own choreos? That is one of the beiggest rewards in teaching, seeing your artistic vision coming alive by other persons.

I am probably influenced to some extend by all of the wonderful teachers I studied with and especially Lena (Helt) for whom I studied and worked with the most, but I would never dream of teaching Lenas stuff. I believe we bring ourselves to the dance and I am pretty sure that I couldn´t be sure to give the students the vision the original choreographer had.

I have seen some choreos by big nemas danced by many different dancers and although they all stuck to the original steps the dance, the feel and emoting was totally different to everyone of them.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I understand your frustration. It's hard to know what to do in these situations, especially when 8 out of 10 group members DID pay for the workshop and you feel like your group as a whole has a big investment in it.

For the most part, I won't teach other dancer's choreographies to my group. I've learned that if even show them a few combos, they gradually stop attending workshops! I believe their thinking is 'why should I spend all that money if Lauren's going to teach us the highlights anyway?' Then I get frustrated because they're not growing ,supporting the local communtiy, etc.

I have been to workshops where the instructor has specifically said that she wanted us to perform what we learned, and if that meant we were going to have to share it with troupemates who weren't there, she was okay with that. I can't recall anyone ever explicitly saying they were against you sharing what you learned, but that may be because they know they can't stop folks from re-teaching their material, whether they want it to happen or not. I'm not going to get off topic on the how little respect the dance community displays for creative integrity and copyrights, but it is a widespread problem, affecting not just workshop choreographies, but media copying/sharing.

I'm curious why you feel it is your responsibility to teach it to the missing 20% of your group. If eight of you learned it, why can't eight of you perform it, leaving the other two to just suck it up and deal with it? They made a choice not to go. Why is it your obligation to cover them?

Okay, maybe I am going to go off on a bit of a rant now. I understand the concept of teachers being open and generously sharing their knowledge. Teachers who squirrel away important bits of information to keep their students from being as good as they are are small, mean-spirited people who shouldn't be teaching. On the other hand, students who assume that a teacher has an obligation to share what she learns at every workshop and to loan every video she buys and to copy every music CD she owns are greedy and lazy. Workshops and videos and CDs are expensive. If you are purchasing these things for your own knowledge and enrichment, why should others expect to be allowed to leech off of you? As a teacher you are obligated to disclose that a workshop is happening, that a new video is worth owning, and that those great CDs are full of fabulous music that can be purchased from Vendor X. Get Yer Own, Cheapskate!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm curious why you feel it is your responsibility to teach it to the missing 20% of your group. If eight of you learned it, why can't eight of you perform it, leaving the other two to just suck it up and deal with it? They made a choice not to go. Why is it your obligation to cover them?

ITA with your post. To answer your questions above -- in principle I agree with you. In practice, my obligation is that those 2 people are paying to attend the repertory class where the rest of us are rehearsing the material, along with the rest of our repertoire (usually we have 4-5 dances in the repertoire and we try to work on each almost every week to keep them all performance-ready).

So my choices are either:

1) Make those two people sit out roughly 1/4 of the classtime they paid for while the others work on this dance every week for about a year.

2) Not perform the dance that 8 people paid to learn.

3) Make the people who did pay to learn the dance ALSO pay for extra rehearsal time to get it performance ready.

OR

4) Teach it to the other two and perform it as a group. In this case, the workshop instructor made it clear that was OK with her, so it's only my own ethical line I'm toeing, making this the best choice to my eye.

When only a couple of people have learned the dance, we can shine it up for a few minutes before/after class. But getting a group of 8 to execute the movements in sync takes more than a few minutes at a time of work.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

So my choices are either:

1) Make those two people sit out roughly 1/4 of the classtime they paid for while the others work on this dance every week for about a year.

2) Not perform the dance that 8 people paid to learn.

3) Make the people who did pay to learn the dance ALSO pay for extra rehearsal time to get it performance ready.

OR

4) Teach it to the other two and perform it as a group. In this case, the workshop instructor made it clear that was OK with her, so it's only my own ethical line I'm toeing, making this the best choice to my eye.

This is a different system than what I have personally experienced thus far. The first group I danced with conducted all of their repertory practices off line/no charge per session, but you had to pay dues for membership. My current group started out neither charging for practice nor requiring dues to belong, but the director has recently switched to setting aside one paid class a month for troupe rehearsals. If extra rehearsals are needed for a performance (we perform together fairly infrequently), those haven't been charged as class time. Dancers who are not part of the group are not invited to the rehearsal classes, and consequently don't have to pay for them.

I guess if I were in your situation, I would rehearse the 8-person number before or after the other material and prorate the cost of the class for the two not working on that routine, if you did not want to teach it to them. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to pay less/get less. For example, if you normally charge $15 for a one-hour class, have those two pay $10 for a 40-minute class.

Certainly it's your choice--but if you feel you are doing your workshop teachers a disservice by continuing this, why can't you just tell your non-workshop-attending students that from now on, you are adopting a more conscientious policy and won't be indulging them with new material that they haven't paid to learn? I can see that over time, this could develop into quite a logistic problem, trying to keep track of who learned what and how much each person was paying for class, but maybe the long-term answer is to develop more choreographies within the group (not from workshops) or to force a participatory consensus on which choreography workshops will be attended as a group.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Certainly it's your choice--but if you feel you are doing your workshop teachers a disservice by continuing this, why can't you just tell your non-workshop-attending students that from now on, you are adopting a more conscientious policy and won't be indulging them with new material that they haven't paid to learn? .

I think I must not have been very clear. We encountered this situation only once, where the workshop instructor gave us the OK to teach the material to our groups. It's not an ongoing problem, and since in this one case we had the instructor's permission to teach it to our groups, I don't feel like I'm doing anyone a disservice.

I was just sympathizing with the fact that sometimes these situations are complicated, and giving an example of a situation that was less clear-cut than usual. Because although the instructor encouraged us to teach her choreo to our groups, I personally don't like to do it.

Normally, I choreograph all of the group material myself and it's not an issue.

Most workshop choreos seem to be designed as solos anyway and aren't suitable for group performance, IMO. If it's not staged for a group, it's just a bunch of dancers doing the same movements side by side. Looks a little like a school of fish to me ..l;,. That's why I usually just let the people who took the workshop practice together for a few minutes before/after class rather than giving group time to the piece. We don't perform solo choreos as a group.