Thread: Spinoff: is every dancer supposed to be a choreographer??

I've been reading the other choreo threads with interest. I'm learning to choreograph for myself. I usually improvise when I dance at restaurants, private parties, etc..., but for stage work, i prefer choreography. I've done now maybe 3 or 4 complete choreographies for myself. Most of the other stage numbers I performed in the past were choreographed for me by other people (and used with their permission, yada yada yada).

So here's the question. I know several dancers who openly admit they are *not* choreographers. They don't want to choreograph, and don't plan to. They also don't improvise. They spend the money to have dances choreographed for them, or they perform dances learned at workshops.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that. Just as some musicians are not songwriters, some dancers are not choreographers.

It seems like the other posts are getting 2 issues confused.

1. Is there something wrong with using other choreographies, in general and
2. Should permission be obtained/credit be given for choreos used.

In my opinion, the answer to number 1 is NO and the answer to number 2 is "well yes, dummy, isn't it obvious"

I don't think performing someone else's choreography indicates a lack of creativity, just like performing Pachelbel's Canon doesn't indicate a lack of creativity on the part of a cellist.

Okay, off the soapbox now. This just irked me, because I get irritated when people think everyone has to be good at everything in order to be talented and professional. :soapbox:

It's true that dancers in other dance-forms dance other people's choreographies all the time. Big dance companies typically have a choreographer who directs the dancers.

I like to use other people's choreographies sometimes but yeah sometimes I do feel like other dancers will look down on me for it. I sorta think in a competition, people who choreographed or improvised their own piece should get more points than someone dancing to someone else's choreography - even if they paid to have it written for them. I'm saying that even though I did someone else's choreography for my first two competitions.

I think if you can choreograph AND dance, it does show that you're multi-talented and that's definitely something to be respected.

Quintessentially, a belly dancer should create her own improvisational dances (these may have various amounts of choreographic structure but the dance needs to have a certain improvisational essence).

There is nothing wrong with dancing someone else's choreography, but to me that is second best.

I used to think that dancers who used someone else's choreo in a competition were kind of cheating. Then I came to the realization that even well-known Egyptian dancers have a choreographer. As you said, dancers are just that: dancers. They're not necessarily choreographers and composers, and they might need a stylist. Just because you learn someone else's choreo doesn't mean you can dance it well. You still have to be a dancer in order to not look like you're counting and going from step to step. I agree that it's OK to use someone else's choreo as long as they get complete credit.

Sonja,
I mostly agree with you.

I think that in the case of teachers, though, they should have some basic choreographic skills. One of the most important jobs of a belly dance teacher is to teach musical interepretation, and choreography can be a vehicle for instructing that. Both choreography and improvisation are important skills for students to learn, but even when teaching improvisation, choreography can be like "training wheels" for students who are learning how to convey the music through dance.

Nisaa

Originally Posted by Sonja2

So here's the question. I know several dancers who openly admit they are *not* choreographers. They don't want to choreograph, and don't plan to. They also don't improvise. They spend the money to have dances choreographed for them, or they perform dances learned at workshops.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that.

I agree.

I think dancing and choreographing are two different skills. In the other thread there are posts about dancers not doing justice to a choreography, but in my opinion it goes both ways - I've seen good dancers' performances pulled down by poor choreographic choices.

Interesting thread. I almost started a related topic yesterday to ask at what point can you consider yourself a choreographer? If you choreograph your own dances? If you choreograph for students in a class? What about for a troupe? Or are you only a "choreographer" if you get paid for your choreographies?

It seems to me that learning to choreograph is a natural progession in learning to dance, but I suppose some may never reach that point and some may never want to.

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I think dancing and choreographing are two different skills. In the other thread there are posts about dancers not doing justice to a choreography, but in my opinion it goes both ways - I've seen good dancers' performances pulled down by poor choreographic choices.
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in other diciplines, one is hired.like figure skating.i know of only one in the past 30 years that did their own.perhaps gymnist too.i got out of ballet because i was tired of doing another thoughts.do you dancers that use this keep a routene for a year like skaters do? they compete on the circuts with the routene they paid for, the whole season.
sorta like bd workshops?
just last night i saw france loose the worlds due to a bad routene.not to mention he had used music from the same movie series 3 years in a row.
how much does one pay for a routene in the dance world?

Originally Posted by zamora

how much does one pay for a routene in the dance world?

I believe a custom routine by Zahra was listed as $5,000. Not sure exactly how long or what that entailed...

Originally Posted by nasila

At what point can you consider yourself a choreographer? If you choreograph your own dances? If you choreograph for students in a class? What about for a troupe? Or are you only a "choreographer" if you get paid for your choreographies?

I decided to remove "Choreographer" as a "dance involvement" option in my teacher and performer director because I concluded that my definition must be different from that of all the people who wanted to list themselves as choreographers.

To me, if you want to identify yourself as a "choreographer", that means that you create professional-quality choreography that either a professional dancer (other than yourself and your weekly students) or a professional dance company (other than your student troupe) would pay you to use. In other words, if other professional dancers in your area would come to you to learn your choreography, or if they would pay you to create one for them, or if people who don't know you would want to attend your workshops and perform the choreography you teach, then you're a choreographer.

I think if you're creating "tuition choreographies" for your students or student troupe to perform, then that doesn't make you a "choreographer". It makes you a teacher who creates choreography to use as a teaching tool.

I think if you're creating choreography for yourself to perform, that doesn't necessarily make you a "choreographer", it makes you a dancer who creates her own material.

thanks for that explanation, Shira. :)

I have to say, the idea that every dancer needs to be a choreographer is part of the Advanced Degree culture of belly dancing. It goes along with the rules that 1) every dancer must be able to improvise (to live music, no less!) 2) every dancer should be able to name rhythms 3)every dancer must be able to play sagat 4) every dancer should be able to dance with veil and cane and a freaking candelabra 5) every dancer must know the words of the songs they dance to 6) every dancer must know Middle Eastern history and culture 7) every dancer must know the great dancers of the past century...

Not every dancer can (or should) have the independent-study equivalent of a PhD in belly dance and related subjects. Sometimes it's ok to just dance, as long as you're not closing yourself off to learning new things.

Shira, I think your explanation is fantastic.

I wasn't necessarily referring to competition here, either (since several people mentioned it). It's perfectly fine for competitions to specify that dances must be choreographed by the performer or points will be deducted. That's at the discretion of the competition rule-makers/judges. I DO think competitors should know beforehand if that is a consideration.

However, what about "dancing with the stars"? What about MTV's "America's Best Dance Crew"? They all have professional, trained choreographers--but my goodness, they are all fantastically talented dancers, and I certainly don't discredit their talents because they hired choreographers!!!!

As a teacher (putting on a teacher's hat), I would certainly devise a simple choreography of my own for students to work on at home, or perform if they wanted to, or whatever. I've performed my handful of choreographies on stage, and am creating my own choreography for upcoming competition. But I would not call myself a choreographer. I would call myself a dancer who occasionally choreographs her own dances.

I also don't feel like less of a dancer when I dance someone else's choreography.

The dancer as vessel of someone else's choreography is the norm for many western dance forms such as ballet and ballroom. How many ballerina's choreograph their own ballet routines?

Belly dance is different because within its cultural context it is a very personal expression of the music. This personal improvisational touch is an integral part of the dance.

The Egyptian dancers who utilized choreographers, such as Nagua Fouad, were using what we would probably call loose choreographic structure. A general plan, for which they filled in the gaps a little differently each time. I have a video that shows Nagua dancing to Maschaal on two occasions. You can tell she uses more choreography than other Egyptian dancers, but it is still a little different each time.

Originally Posted by Andrea2

I used to think that dancers who used someone else's choreo in a competition were kind of cheating.

See this is something I wonder about too. Maybe it depends on the contest and the definitions. If you can buy (or worse, steal!) someone's awesome putting together of the moves, do you have an unfair advantage over the person who is a great dancer, but creates her own content?

I don't know the answer. I very genuinely wonder about this.

Oh and to answer the original questions:
1. Moral standpoint: Not a thing. As far ability is concerned: as long as it doesn't hamper your musical interpretation.
2. Yep.

I hate choreographing dances and I don't really care for dancing choreographed numbers either, but it's a necessary evil. Besides, there are some undeniably pro-level dancers who are vehemently anti-choreography, so they may argue that it shouldn't factor into the dancer's level of knowledge at all.

I started learning how to choreograph for myself because solo choreographies from other people never felt comfortable when I performed. No matter how many times I went over it, it still felt like I was wearing someone else's clothes.

And that is a good point that all Egyptian dancers have choreographers. I was speaking to a friend yesterday and he acts as an agent for one of the dancers who will be appearing in the April Nile Group opening show. He was talking about their meeting with the choreographer and band.

I was shocked and he was like, "Oh yes, all those steps are choreographed, did you really think they just went out there and danced?!" (I didn't tell him, "Yeah, I DID!")

Was it Soheir Zaki or Nagwa that someone said everything is choreographed, down to the winks and smiles?

One more thought...

As I said above, I think it's perfectly fine for a dancer to perform to choreography created by someone else (with appropriate permissions, appropriate attributions, etc.) I don't think it makes her less of a dancer at all.

However...

I think someone who uses a choreography from a popular instructional DVD when performing at a belly dance event is taking a risk. Restaurant or other general public = no problem. Belly dance event = risk.

That's because there will be people in the audience who recognize the choreography, perhaps have even learned it themselves. Instead of allowing themselves to relax and respond to her interpretation, such folks are likely to be distracted into mentally rehearsing along with her, and maybe even judging her for her interpretation of it. Afterward, the only thing they'll remember about her performance was, "Oh yeah, she's the one who danced to Jillina's choreography from that IAMED video." They won't remember her brilliant smile, her passion, her charisma, etc.

Note that I'm not saying it's "wrong" to do that performance - only that it's a bit risky. The performance may have less impact because of the reaction it provokes in people who recognize the choreo.

The dancer as vessel of someone else's choreography is the norm for many western dance forms such as ballet and ballroom. How many ballerina's choreograph their own ballet routines?

AMEN

I can accept the Ballet analogy in respect of the dance's more formal Theatrical/Art elements.

However, there is an informal Social/Entertainment aspect to this dance too, and that aspect does require a dancer to be able to improvise, if only to be able to dodge waiters bearing food, and audience members who may be a bit handy, or to deal with a band that segues from the music you'd agreed on, into their own flight of musical improvisation.

This dance has two legs- choreography *and* improvisation. To use only one of those legs makes for a less interesting dancer.

And going back to the original questions
1- no there's nothing wrong with using other people's choreography, in general. I like the dancer to have somehow made the routine her own in some way, so you get a sense of her as a dancer, an interpreter of music, as a dance artist, as a person, rather than just seeing her dance technique.
2- that's a no brainer. It would always be wrong to use other people's choreography without their permission. And credit should always be given whenever possible.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Belly dance is different because within its cultural context it is a very personal expression of the music. This personal improvisational touch is an integral part of the dance.

I agree very much with this. I think that is part of why it takes a very skillful dancer performing a choreography to appear not to be choreographed. That dancer has the skills to let her body do the choreography while focusing her energy on the personal aspect of expression.

However I also think that a truly good choreography comes down to capturing the inspired moments of improvisation and recreating them. A good choreography is like the best moments picked out of several improv performances. But it's for that very reason that I don't think every choreography is going to work for every dancer. Jillina's choreographies, say, are not much like what I do in my improv, so they feel rather alien on my body and I would definitely look like I am doing a choreography if I performed one. OTOH, I am head over heels in love with Diana Tarkhan's Golden Age choreography (in the Masters series) to the point where I may actually study it to perform it, because it does reflect a lot of what I like to do in my improv and I feel a lot of joy when I'm working on it.

So I'd add an additional factor to choosing to perform other people's choreographies, which is being able to recognize what choreography suits you and what doesn't. It's not as simple as just learning it and following the steps. Perhaps being able to modify a choreography to make it your own is a relevant factor as well. To refer back to Sonja2's Pachabel's Canon example, plenty of cellists can play it, but not every cellist can play it memorably.

In the end, I would answer
1) not necessarily, but it is harder to do this well than one might think
2) absolutely always

The Egyptian dancers who utilized choreographers, such as Nagua Fouad, were using what we would probably call loose choreographic structure. A general plan, for which they filled in the gaps a little differently each time. I have a video that shows Nagua dancing to Maschaal on two occasions. You can tell she uses more choreography than other Egyptian dancers, but it is still a little different each time.

Dina too--obviously she has a choreography to Taht al Shubbak, but it's still different every time she does it, which is why it is still compelling every time she does it.

Wow, this thread is making me feel better about the fact that I don't choreograph everything I perform. BUT I can and do choreograph if needed. Most of my solos are improvised--based loosely on an idea of how I want things to go, with small bit of choreo in some areas.

In classical Indian dance, all most people ever dance is other people's choreographies - and nobody thinks there's anything wrong with it.
Improvisation is not part of the art form. OK, it happens when I forget what steps are next ..g.: but that's only a few beats until I get back into choreo.

And if I go to Beirut and spend loads of money to learn choreographies (because that's how my teacher prefers to work) I certainly want to show them! Also because I really like her choreos and think they should be shown in front of a large audience. (some of them are on YouTube now ..l;,)

I don't perform choreos I learned in workshops because I don't want to dance the same dance as a dozen other people. But of course, it's what works for you, I'm fine with it.

I'd rather see a dancer doing a nice presentation of somebody else's interesting choreo than show her own boring dance (if she's not skilled in choreography).
At the end of the day, I just want to see good dance.

MEISSOUN

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

Sonja,
I mostly agree with you.

I think that in the case of teachers, though, they should have some basic choreographic skills. One of the most important jobs of a belly dance teacher is to teach musical interepretation, and choreography can be a vehicle for instructing that. Both choreography and improvisation are important skills for students to learn, but even when teaching improvisation, choreography can be like "training wheels" for students who are learning how to convey the music through dance.

Nisaa

I couldn't have said it better. To me, improv is the ultimate accomplishment of a dancer's training but the building blocks to get there are choreographies. This way you learn how to apply what technique to what parts of the music.

Dr. Mo once said at a workshop that dancers today try too hard to be good instructors/performers/choreographers and yet sometimes we have to face that not everyone can be equally strong in all 3 and realize it's okay.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with performing someone else's choreography if you give proper credit.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

Most of my solos are improvised--based loosely on an idea of how I want things to go, with small bit of choreo in some areas.

That's how I do it for gigs. Unless you have a dedicated stage space, parties, restaurants, etc are fraught with complications that will mess with your choreo. For stage shows, I'm finding that choreo works better for me now. (And this from the girl who grew up improv-only and never thought she could ever learn choreos! Go figure.)

Deborah

Originally Posted by nasila

Interesting thread. I almost started a related topic yesterday to ask at what point can you consider yourself a choreographer? If you choreograph your own dances? If you choreograph for students in a class? What about for a troupe? Or are you only a "choreographer" if you get paid for your choreographies?

Maybe you are a choreographer if you can choreograph for other people, either a troupe or another person - meaning you don't just write your own choreography for your own body and taste, but you can understand other people's bodies, abilities, tastes, and imagine people moving in space - people that aren't you - that's a real choreographer.

Originally Posted by MaryRaks

Dr. Mo once said at a workshop that dancers today try too hard to be good instructors/performers/choreographers and yet sometimes we have to face that not everyone can be equally strong in all 3 and realize it's okay.

I totally disagree,it's not enough that a dancer should have perfect technique, flawless teaching ability, and be an incredible choreographer, they also need to have top notch business and marketing skills, and be able to sew like a professional seamstress.

..l;,..l;,..l;,

And they have to have a commercial hardbody, shampoo-model hair and a flawlessly made-up face that never looks older than 28 AS WELL!

I'd say that there is nothing wrong with commissioning choreographies from more able persons and performing them. It's a part of a dancer's growth to learn to express themselves outside their typical realm and comfort. A true artist does not stick with preferences - but embodies what the music gives them. Various choreographers/coaches/instructors can give great insight to how to progress past "habits" as far as dance expression goes.

If athletes can have coaches - so can dancers. None of the Egyptians just dance and "pull it out" from nowhere.

I think it comes down to the definition of choreography as well - does a choreography only mean "micromanaged microstructured to music" or does it include "framework to music" as well? Improvisation is only a tool if it HELPS your dancing - not if you get stuck in the same movement for 20 minutes. Such as choreography is not a tool if it prepetuates your "strengths" and avoids your weaknesses always.

I'm one of those choreographers that people commission work from and/or come in for choreography consultations to - soloists, troupes and companies...I ask what they are looking for and work accordingly. I mean, I dont re-choreography someone's choreography if they're in for a consult on their work.... and I dont expect the student to come up with the choreography if they are paying me to do it. I also make a huge deal out of breaking typical habits, typical stereotype related things and "preferences" in style - yet enhancing what's complimentary to the dancer as well. I produce dancers, material and works that have range - sometimes real wide, sometimes narrower.

None of the dancers I know of any caliber have never worked with a guide/mentor/coach/consultant/choreographer at one point or another. It's a part of the natural growth in each dancer.