Thread: No more interest in background and history?

Originally Posted by lana

I think it's all in the way it's presented. A good math teacher makes math interesting. A good economy teacher makes economy interesting. I've had bd teachers who were so boring, and others who I couldn't get enough of...

No sorry I don't agree -its not up to the teacher to be charismatic and interesting its up to the student to be interested and bothered!

Obviously belly dance is one of those classes that people take because they have an interest in it. Unlike a math class that you have to take and the teacher has to work extra hard to get the students to do the work or stay interested in class.
But even in belly dance I still think it is up to the teacher to make the material they teach exciting and interesting. If they don't they will lose those students that originally came in with that motivation to learn. A good teacher ( no matter what the subject) knows how to present material in such a way as to keep that interest in learning alive.

[quote=kahaz;396436]

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

and coming from me, not the goddess-oriented-fertility-dance thing (which I frankly find rather rude to pagans).

Having been involved in both the Pagan and ME Dance world for years, I'd have to say that if asked to tell you which group had more misinformation and more people that made make-believe into fact I'd need to stop and think about it. (Heard about the ancient Potato Cult-in Ireland? Or that there was once a great monotheistic Goddess religion?)

For years I'd do workshops at Pagan Festivals; had to eventualy give it up since I couldn't bear wasting anymore time knocking aside all the myths-beginning with it being 'wimmin's dance' and complaints about men being allowed to join in. (Personal rant/opinion: if you can only feel good about yourself when half the world is absent, then empowerment is still out of your grasp!). My personal favorite: the student that stopped coming to classes because I wouldn't teach her the 'historical recreation of the dance of Ishtar'. Honest: it seems that the removal of the seven articles of clothing in order to gain entrance to the underworld was actually the dance of Salome in the Bible which had been corrupted by the patriarchy.....yes, apparantly Oscar Wilde was a member of the patriarchy-and wrote the New Testament. ..l;,..cr.:

I don't know if you are a pagan or just someone who works with pagans or have been turned off by paganism...but as a pagan, I hope you don't think pagans are all a bunch of ignoramuses who aren't interested in the history of belly dance. Yes, there are a lot of fluffy bunny pagans out there who will only want to hear about their own version of what belly dance is, but we aren't all that way.

I am a student interested in the true history of belly dance and I have my personal spiritual interpretation of it which is only my personal interpretation that I will keep to myself. That doesn't mean I will be against learning about the history. I'm currently reading about the history of Egyptian dancers (recommended by someone on this forum). Fascinating and eye-opening. So many cultural myths have been just blown out of the water for me. My own personal opinion is that as long as you are educated about the dance, you should be able to put some of your own interpretations into it as long as you don't propagate misinformation (such as stating that belly dance is a goddess cult dance). It would be better to say, this is what belly dance means to me, personally, based on what drew me to the dance, but belly dance has a history that is very different from what western interpretation has made it out to be. As a student, I love hearing about history, but I also like to feel that my own personal feelings about the dance are respected. If you respect me, I'll be more willing to hear what you have to say. I don't know if that's helpful or not, I'm just offering a beginning student perspective on teaching history in belly dance lessons. I actually wish my teacher would go more into the history than she has. But that's what books are there for and I'm having a good time educating myself by going on this forum and reading...along with reading what is recommended to me on this forum.

Since I teach Egyptian style when I teach the history I will teach about the folkloric dances and their origins and how they got incorporated onto the stage, and then how we use those movements in what we are doing in class. For the music I will teach some of the rhythms and background of the styles, singers, etc. I show them clips of famous dancers from times past, and discuss their dancing styles and influence on the dance as it is today. I do not go into any ancient history of belly dance because that is debatable as far as what it's origins are, and it depends on how you define belly dance anyway. I do however respect anyones opinion on the subject and do believe myself that women have been doing some form of pelvic dance for a variety of reasons in many different cultures for centuries. So whatever someone wants to believe is their business. And I do bring books on the subject and let my students borrow them and to help educate them on the different resources there are to learn about this dance.

So I have learned from this thread that everybodies interpretation of the history of belly dance is different and therefore what is taught will be different from teacher to teacher. I personally just stick to the facts that I know, I feel that is the safest bet.

Smuse - are you speaking to me or kahaz or who? I think you have several quotes in there.

As for me, no, I have nothing against pagans. Actually all of my friends are pagans. But no, I'm not going to respect anyone's inaccurate historical belief about anything, because, well, it's inaccurate. That's like insisting 2 + 2 equals 87 and I should just respect that 'because it's your belief' before I teach you that 2 + 2 = 4. People can have whatever religion they want, but don't claim that it's fact when history doesn't back it up.

Bellydancewear is right- stick to the facts, which is the safest bet.

Originally Posted by smuse33

I am a student interested in the true history of belly dance and I have my personal spiritual interpretation of it which is only my personal interpretation that I will keep to myself. That doesn't mean I will be against learning about the history. I'm currently reading about the history of Egyptian dancers (recommended by someone on this forum). Fascinating and eye-opening. So many cultural myths have been just blown out of the water for me. My own personal opinion is that as long as you are educated about the dance, you should be able to put some of your own interpretations into it as long as you don't propagate misinformation (such as stating that belly dance is a goddess cult dance). It would be better to say, this is what belly dance means to me, personally, based on what drew me to the dance, but belly dance has a history that is very different from what western interpretation has made it out to be. As a student, I love hearing about history, but I also like to feel that my own personal feelings about the dance are respected. If you respect me, I'll be more willing to hear what you have to say. I don't know if that's helpful or not, I'm just offering a beginning student perspective on teaching history in belly dance lessons. I actually wish my teacher would go more into the history than she has. But that's what books are there for and I'm having a good time educating myself by going on this forum and reading...along with reading what is recommended to me on this forum.

See, unfortunately, Smuse, the way you come across is that you have beliefs about BD that hover rather close to the fantasies, and I suspect, based on some of the things you've said about your teaching, that your teachers also propagate said fantasies to a greater or lesser degree. I don't think there is anything wrong with fantasy, or with connecting one's spirituality to something unprovable. That's the basis of faith, after all. But your talk about BD's "very different" history makes me want to ask, what are your sources? Because the only sources I've had access to on BD's history are western ones. There is very little native writing about BD in the grand scheme of things, though there are some descriptions of, I think, Persian dance that come direct from Persian writers. If you're thinking this history is something to do with a dance that has been debased by Western eyes/men/colonialism/Judao-Christian-Islamic religions, then you're in Wendy Buonaventura or Rosina Al-Fawzi territory. And it's fantasy. It's the same as the gypsy trail/fertility goddess stuff; it's myth. Nice myth, but myth.

If someone politely debunks something you want to believe, they are not disrespecting you. You are feeling distress about your fantasy not being right. It's not the same thing.

Oh, you all make me laugh so...

I have been surprised in the last year that my students are coming to me specifically because they want the cultural/historical context. Just when I had my advertising spiel tweaked to appeal to the fitness craze too...

probably 60% of my students just come to have fun, get some exercise, "learn a choreography in 6 weeks because my anniversary is coming up" ,r:; so I do need to keep things flowing for them- but there are ways to 'sneak it in' as someone else mentioned- this is how this movement is executed in style x, this is how y dancer reinterpreted it, etc- I give out recommendations for music & youtube videos to check out & talk about them in class- what some of the differences & influences are- the history of the specific style we are working on- doesn't take but 5 minutes at the end of class, unless someone has questions- which make it that much more fun!

My classes have actually been picking up over the last year. 'course Alaska is behind everywhere else in most things, so we might not peak for another couple years ..g.:

we have a hard time at our studio, if anyone does not want the "why" of what they are learning.it is a matter of respect of the art, and it's spiritual side.
i just came from my yearly workshop in santa cruz calif.
all i hear is "when are you coming back? no one teaches us history". so, once again, i find it very different here.
students are hungey for history etc.
z

boy, a lot happened between when I started my reply & when I hit post...
That's not how I read Smuse's post at all- There is the historical fact aspect & there are aspects that are open to interpretation, such as WHY so many cultures around the world have similar movements without being influenced by each other or HOW a dance affects someone on a spiritual level. I talk about the historical fact in class, but keep my spiritual views of dance to myself, which is what I read from Smuse's post... I am Christian & used to dance with a Wiccan woman- we had some great conversations about spirituality in dance, but we kept it out of the classroom.

sorry- accidental double post.

our clases talk about spirtuality very openly here, they ask about it's ties to the floor work, trance dance, zar, etc.
those who just want to romp around in a hip scarf are usually in the group classes.they do not work their way up to my classes.they are where their level of understanding stays, by their choice.
but this is an odd place to live when it comes to this stuff.

thinking....you know ,
wanting to learn without knowing history, is like wanting a prop before learning the dance.to us, ....

Zum, I suggested to Smuse that she read A TRADE LIKE ANY OTHER and suggested several websites for her to look at such as Habibas and Rocky's to help give her a little more background on from educated dancers who have done field research.

"my grandmothers secrets" is an awesome book.the author captured her families/tribes traditions in a readable, useable fashion.
other have argued that it is not factual to them.this just goes with what happenes on bhuz.culture/things vary from place to person.

Originally Posted by BreaMorgiane

Smuse - are you speaking to me or kahaz or who? I think you have several quotes in there.

As for me, no, I have nothing against pagans. Actually all of my friends are pagans. But no, I'm not going to respect anyone's inaccurate historical belief about anything, because, well, it's inaccurate. That's like insisting 2 + 2 equals 87 and I should just respect that 'because it's your belief' before I teach you that 2 + 2 = 4. People can have whatever religion they want, but don't claim that it's fact when history doesn't back it up.

Bellydancewear is right- stick to the facts, which is the safest bet.

I wasn't saying people should respect that I have inaccurate historical beliefs. My spiritual feeling about belly dance has nothing to do with historical inaccuracy or wanting my fantasy about belly dance to be true. It's a personal feeling, nothing more. Like when you are dancing in a club and you feel spiritually whole. That is all I was talking about. I do not believe in the Goddess fertility cult thing. I don't think I have ever believed that to be true. Perhaps a hunch, but never believed it to be true.

Fyi, I'm reading "A trade like any other" right now, which talks about the history of Egyptian dancers. The author went to Egypt and studied Egyptian dance. I haven't read the entire book yet, so that's what I'll say right now.

Originally Posted by smuse33

Fyi, I'm reading "A trade like any other" right now, which talks about the history of Egyptian dancers. The author went to Egypt and studied Egyptian dance. I haven't read the entire book yet, so that's what I'll say right now.

To be more accurate, the author didn't go to Egypt to study Egyptian dance. It is a sociological study of the lives, roles, and social position of women entertainers in Egypt growing out of a tradition of the family trade of music, dancing, and singing which both men and women participate in. It strips away any layers of agrandizement we might have applied to the notion of being a professional Egyptian dancer in Egypt. Not about dance. More like the reality that dancer lives in.

Originally Posted by Souzan

To be more accurate, the author didn't go to Egypt to study Egyptian dance. It is a sociological study of the lives, roles, and social position of women entertainers in Egypt growing out of a tradition of the family trade of music, dancing, and singing which both men and women participate in. It strips away any layers of agrandizement we might have applied to the notion of being a professional Egyptian dancer in Egypt. Not about dance. More like the reality that dancer lives in.

Okay, sorry, I shouldn't have put it that way, because that's not what I meant. I have trouble putting my thoughts into words quite often.

Hey, no problem. Just wanted to make sure that in a thread where fact vs fantasies/fallacies is an issue, people who haven't read that book understand that you are talking about something that is a serious academic study rather than a romaticized account of a starry-eyed Western dancer who goes to Egypt to learn from the stars!

Originally Posted by Souzan

Hey, no problem. Just wanted to make sure that in a thread where fact vs fantasies/fallacies is an issue, people who haven't read that book understand that you are talking about something that is a serious academic study rather than a romaticized account of a starry-eyed Western dancer who goes to Egypt to learn from the stars!

Yeah, I figured that was what you were doing. The way I talk on line makes it sound like I'm this starry-eyed person trying to propogate misinformation. I'm just a very emotional person. In the Myers-Briggs I'm a very strong N (intuitive) and F (feeling). The way I feel about dancing is very important to me and I can be studying serious history of the people surrounding the dance, yet still find my own way of expressing myself without giving misinformation about belly dance.

In defense of my teachers, they are purists by nature and would frown on any attempt to romanticize belly dance. They have been in a folkloric dance troupe since 1977 and their mission is to keep the dance alive and any Western influences in costume or ways of moving, or any mixture of styles they always explain where specifically that style came from and even explain about some of the history of the people that started the style. We were given a syllabus at the beginning of the class with a map of the Middle East and a brief explanation of the meaning of the dance. There was no goddess worship info anywhere in that packet. I'll give you more specifics if you'd like.

I'll admit that I wouldn't like just a straight explanation of the history of belly dance without learning some moves. Perhaps combining the moves with some instruction on the history? Perform for them. I loved it when my instructor performed a folkloric belly dance with a quick explanation of the dance beforehand. As a student I can comfortably say that I LOVE watching a good belly dance performance. So perhaps they would be more willing to learn if you combined it with performing moves from the particular region or peoples you are discussing at the time, then teach them some moves. Just some ideas from the perspective of a student.

Originally Posted by Lara L

boy, a lot happened between when I started my reply & when I hit post...
That's not how I read Smuse's post at all- There is the historical fact aspect & there are aspects that are open to interpretation, such as WHY so many cultures around the world have similar movements without being influenced by each other or HOW a dance affects someone on a spiritual level. I talk about the historical fact in class, but keep my spiritual views of dance to myself, which is what I read from Smuse's post... I am Christian & used to dance with a Wiccan woman- we had some great conversations about spirituality in dance, but we kept it out of the classroom.

Thank-you. What you said is exactly what I was trying to convey.

Well, you know one of the problems with trying to present the "real authentic movements" from a historical point of view is that we just don't have that much access to them. What we have are dance "performances" in a folkloric style but in most cases not the actual folk (read untrained dancers) doing the actual folk dance. We have staged representations of the folk dance as entertainment. How much is the real thing? How much is adapted to be seen on a stage from a large audience point of view? How much is romanticized, stylized, symbolic in nature? For the most part, what we see is entertainment danced by entertainers for paying customers. If you are an entertainer making your living amusing people who will give you what you need to feed yourself and your family, you will do what pays you best.

My point is that we see the version of folkloric dance that we are permitted to see. As Aunt Rocky says, girls in the countryside of Egypt do not burst out into choral singing and dancing at the well while balancing full jugs of water on their heads and dragging big ruffled dresses around. First, the jugs are incredibly heavy, second if they tripped on the long ruffles they would break the jug, and most importantly she would be beaten or worse for pulling up her skirts and dancing in public.

Melaya Leff is considered one of the "folkloric" styles but it is a theatrical dance not something that young women going shopping do in Alexandria.
It would be like watching the musical Oklahoma and assuming that real cowboys have a traditional dance that the choreography is based on. Take even our American square dance. When I was a kid we were taught square dance in school and groups every once in a while had social square dance nights. Now it is a staged thing done in fancy square dance costumes and not something that mom and pop and the kids invite their neighbors over to do on a Sunday afternoon while the burgers are on the grill.

So I guess the best we can say is here is an interpretation of a folkloric style that may reflect some of the aspects of particular cultural elements.

Souzan

In that case, I don't see what the problem is with some mixing of stylization if we have already gone so far from the roots of the dance. In the book you recommended to me, it discussed the orientalist aspects of cabaret costumes. She was talking about beads and sequins in particular, to make a costume look more "oriental," fitting the western idea of what oriental is. I have seen lots of people on this forum wearing costumes with all sorts of beads and embellishments. Shouldn't you be wearing costumes sans those things if you want to be as authentic as possible? After all, it is "orientalist." It's important to educate myself as a beginner. It is also important that I not drive myself crazy looking for the most authentic costume if most of the costumes belly dancers wear today are not authentic. I think the most important thing is teaching us students to value educating ourselves about another culture. I took a multicultural class as a requirement in graduate school and am very aware of different cultures and the way my white privilege might cause me to think I know everything about a culture because I've read some books about it. I will never know everything there is to know about a culture. Even if you live there for a few years, you did not grow up there with their values and cultural norms, so you will have no real idea how that culture works unless you live and breathe it. So I have chosen to educate myself as much as possible with books, learn the dance and let the rest follow.

Also, to the person who started this thread, this generation tends to be very tied to instant gratification. Perhaps give them some websites to go to and then discuss the site when they get there. Perhaps try to blend the technology they are used to with instruction and then dance. No, we can't be purely authentic, but when combining dance it just helps people like me who are more instant gratification learn in a way that is exciting and lively. That way they are getting the dance AND the education. I like the way one of you mentioned "sneaking it in" to the curriculum. Excellent idea. It's so interesting reading about what instructors are thinking about as a student.

Originally Posted by smuse33

In that case, I don't see what the problem is with some mixing of stylization if we have already gone so far from the roots of the dance. Souzan: What are the roots of the dance? My point is that so often what we see presented as folkloric dance is theatrical folkloric dance which either never actually existed in reality or that few, if any, have actually seen In the book you recommended to me, it discussed the orientalist aspects of cabaret costumes. She was talking about beads and sequins in particular, to make a costume look more "oriental," fitting the western idea of what oriental is. Souzan: Costumes are just that--costumes--and the style, color, fabric, embellishments, etc. are selected to catch and hold the eye, emphasize movements, permit movements to be seen from a distance, enhance the entertainment experience. I have seen lots of people on this forum wearing costumes with all sorts of beads and embellishments. Shouldn't you be wearing costumes sans those things if you want to be as authentic as possible? After all, it is "orientalist." Souzan: We buy costumes from designers in Egypt, made by Egyptians. Egyptian dancers do the same. Even the folkloric style costumes made in Egypt utilize glitter, paillettes, coins, lurex, beads, sequins, fringe because they do what costumes do. It's important to educate myself as a beginner. It is also important that I not drive myself crazy looking for the most authentic costume if most of the costumes belly dancers wear today are not authentic. A white gallabeya, like the one I wear in my profile pic s an authentic man's everyday garment in Egypt. Professional female dancers in Egypt wear them sometimes when doing balady as a woman putting on the gallabeya shows that she is tough enough to operae in the man's world. It is an artistic statement, but not one necessarily mirrored in real life. It is an authentic man's garment, but not necessarily an authentic woman's garment. When a dancer wears one she wears it as a costume. I will never know everything about a culture because I've read some books about it. I will never know everything there is to know about a culture. Even if you live there for a few years, you did not grow up there with their values and cultural norms, so you will have no real idea how that culture works unless you live and breathe it. So I have chosen to educate myself as much as possible with books, learn the dance and let the rest follow. Excellent points. No matter how much we read or how often we visit other cultures, we are always looking through the filter made up of all our own cultural experiences. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep learning and growing!

SouzanMy responses in red

Okay, I certainly did not mean we should just stop learning.

Originally Posted by Lara L

WHY so many cultures around the world have similar movements without being influenced by each other

The human body - from whatever part of the world - has the same muscles and bones. It therefore is not surprising that different groups include the same movements in their dance. What is more of a mystery is why certain moves are not included eg torso in Irish, hips in English, full body undulations in Arabic.

Originally Posted by zamora

"my grandmothers secrets" is an awesome book.the author captured her families/tribes traditions in a readable, useable fashion.
other have argued that it is not factual to them.this just goes with what happenes on bhuz.culture/things vary from place to person.

Actually if I had to choose between the opinion of someone like Morocco who has spent years researching this dance and some one out to make a quick buck plugging into the current fantasy, I'd go with Rocky every time.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Actually if I had to choose between the opinion of someone like Morocco who has spent years researching this dance and some one out to make a quick buck plugging into the current fantasy, I'd go with Rocky every time.

Seconded.
I will say that, as I recall, Morocco supported the writer's recollections of her life -- the "Tuesdays with Grandma" part, if you will. It was the painfully undocumented portion of the work that deal with the "history" of the dance that she rightly derided.

I don't think, myself, the writer was out to "make a buck". I think, rather, that she simply feel into assuming that what Westerners had pulled up as "history of belly dance" was true. And with that assumption, she pushed information that first appeared in the West (for example, Jamila's FROM CAVE TO CULT TO CABARET), poorly researched and documented, into a work about the truth of life "over there". So now a dancer reads it w/o knowing that backstory, and assumes the writer did research -- which she did not.

So my true ire is directed to those who do know better, and yet cling to their stories we tell in order to make ourselves feel good" about this dance. It is NOT a case of "well, some people say X, and others say Y," but rather a point where there is clear, if hard to find, evidence for the reality of our history. And that reality is far more fascinating, to me, then the dross too many dancers dabble in.

The history bit of Grandmother's Secrets draws, as Asim says, from "western" (God I hate that binary) research/writing that was based on already outdated anthropology by a person who did no fieldwork and made evolutionist assumptions. Also from Wendy B, who draws on the same thing.

She did research, all right, it's just that the research materials readily available on BD is quite significantly flawed.

Fads and trends fill our pockets and pay our bills.
Culture fills our souls.
Art fills our hearts.

Thats how I see it... All necessary... although a well rounded education in culture, history, anatomy, movement, conceptualization of dance etc can enrich people, most are just looking to fill their hearts and pay the teachers' bills :P

You cant get too hung up on why people come to class, you can only control the material you present. Thus, if you want your students to learn more about the subjects mentioned - you have to provide the material whether people are initially there for it or not. However,....there is a balance... we all have bills to pay so we all end up catering to the "market" to some extent. Just dont let that get to you.

I have had students that have been rudely displeased with the time I spend on "talking and talking" in class... and years later they come back and are specifically looking for more of my "talking". Thus, I will never be a billionaire from teaching - but it fulfills me to teach this way and the students benefit from it more in the long run.

PS: read the Samara thread so just for the record: everyone are welcome in my classes as long as they are willing to learn and to work (on a physical, psychological, intellectual, conceptual and artistic level) ;)

DaVid