Thread: Advanced Students

Hi Ladies. Any advice on this topic would be helpful. I currently have an advanced class that really has a mix of different styles (2-3 girls want to be Tribal-based). Another few ladies have been going to other teachers in the area, but still come to my classes.

When I start instructing the class, I feel quite strange at some points teaching. One girl consistantly calls me on if I'm not being thorough enough, or if I miss something. Another girl is doing more tribal based movements.

I am teaching them a veil choreography that requires one 2 counts of snake arms done quickly (which is in total 8 snake arms). She always frowns at this part, says "this is stupid, why can't you break it down for me even more".

This class is like a circus! I don't know what I should do? They know each other quite well, and sometimes are loud and other times are whispering to each other.

Am I just being really paranoid???

Originally Posted by Aaminah83

Hi Ladies. Any advice on this topic would be helpful. I currently have an advanced class that really has a mix of different styles (2-3 girls want to be Tribal-based). Another few ladies have been going to other teachers in the area, but still come to my classes.

When I start instructing the class, I feel quite strange at some points teaching. One girl consistantly calls me on if I'm not being thorough enough, or if I miss something. Another girl is doing more tribal based movements.

I am teaching them a veil choreography that requires one 2 counts of snake arms done quickly (which is in total 8 snake arms). She always frowns at this part, says "this is stupid, why can't you break it down for me even more".

This class is like a circus! I don't know what I should do? They know each other quite well, and sometimes are loud and other times are whispering to each other.

Am I just being really paranoid???

You need to let them know who's running the class. If one of them feels they need more input of break down, then give it, go over it with a fine toothcomb. Basically, if you can't please everyone, so you may as well please yourself. By this I mean that you structure you class a certain way and stick to it. Some will like it, some will not.

As for whispering in class, and being loud. I would personally tell them that they are being disruptive to the rest of the class and their chattering is making it difficult for the rest of the class to hear you. I take no prisoners. I would also have a private word and tell them that whispering in class is not only rude but also disrespectful to you and the rest of the class. Reiterate, it's an adult only class.

It sounds like the one girl doesn't belong in an advanced class if she requires so much breakdown.

I recently sat in on someone else's advanced class and it was chaos. I was very annoyed. The girls spent more time gossiping then learning. Most of them are starting to work and apparently think they know it all.

I don't know what advise to give you. Snake arms are difficult for a lot of students. All I can suggest is to ask her what she's having a problem with. One thing I've learned through teaching is that everyone has different learning styles. I try to explain movements in different ways, using different vocabulary if I find students just can't get something.

As far as the loudness and whispering goes I personally don't tolerate it in my class. If I have to spend extra time with a student I have the others watch to see if they can spot what the trouble is. If they start to drift away I call on them to demonstrate.

My class is very structured and organized so my students don't have too many opportunities to get out of line.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

You need to let them know who's running the class. If one of them feels they need more input of break down, then give it, go over it with a fine toothcomb. Basically, if you can't please everyone, so you may as well please yourself. By this I mean that you structure you class a certain way and stick to it. Some will like it, some will not.

As for whispering in class, and being loud. I would personally tell them that they are being disruptive to the rest of the class and their chattering is making it difficult for the rest of the class to hear you. I take no prisoners. I would also have a private word and tell them that whispering in class is not only rude but also disrespectful to you and the rest of the class. Reiterate, it's an adult only class.

Amen.

You can still be polite, but make your wishes very clear. You are the one running the class here.

If I had a student saying something was stupid after I'd already broken it down, I might politely suggest that they'd get a more thorough review in my beginner class. It's one thing to speak to the teacher after class about anything you're unhappy with or need a little extra breakdown from time to time - that's totally okay. But this girl's choice of words would have really pushed my wrong buttons - she's behaving completely disrespectful. I'd put the brakes on quickly with that one!

Confrontation is never fun, but if you let them carry on this way, my guess is they are going to lose respect for you and leave.

You could also consider the fact that more breakdown is needed. Teaching isn't easy. Sometimes I have to teach things in a variety of ways so that everyone gets it. We're not all wired the same. You also can't be teaching several styles in one class, in my opinion.

Hi Ladies! Thanks for the advice.

The only problem is that this girl has been dancing for 3 years now, and she is quite good and she knows what snake arms are, and has no problem doing them.

She is getting to the point where she thinks she is better then most people in the class (perhaps even me?) and is getting very confident very quickly.

Originally Posted by Aaminah83

Hi Ladies! Thanks for the advice.

The only problem is that this girl has been dancing for 3 years now, and she is quite good and she knows what snake arms are, and has no problem doing them.

She is getting to the point where she thinks she is better then most people in the class (perhaps even me?) and is getting very confident very quickly.

Yes, well many of us can do snake arms in a variety of ways, and I also know that of all the teachers in our city, they're taught differently. That doesn't make any of them wrong - we all just have different approaches and styles. If she's taking your class, then she should be doing them your way. Out of class, she can do them any way she wishes, but what's the point of going to class if you already know it all and are doing your own thing?

Get some 3 and 5 pound free weights. Those "advanced" students can do snake arms with weights to help build strength and endurance. Talk about slow snake arms like you are moving through fudge! There will be plenty of intention when using weights. Any complaints? Well too bad. They are advanced students and must be able to push themselves through fatigue and discomfort.

When it gets to a certain level, I feel that some individuality is the goal of the dance - so I'm not going to teach everyone to do it exactly 'my way' so that they are all carbon copies. Depending on your body type and a number of other factors, slightly different ways of doing things look better on you than others. And when it looks better, you feel better, and dance more confidently.

If an advanced student who knows how to do snake arms is asking for it to be broken down and explained again, I'd want to know why. I would ask "which aspect do you think you are you having trouble with - because from what I can see, you are doing it fine".

I also routinely say in my intermediates class that I won't break down things that are beginners moves. So if you are in intermediates, and you don't know/have never done a hip drop, I will advise you to come to beginners to learn that. I don't want to slow the class down for the other people who paid to come to an intermediates class.

On occassion there are moves that I feel are beginners moves that for some reason my whole intermediates class don't know how to do. They didn't train as beginners with me, so if that's the case I will break it down.

1.A class of any kind is NOT a democracy.
2.Yes breakdown and down into infinity
3.Is a 3 year student really an advanced student?
4.Anybody so much better than everyone else really should move on.
5.Move her on and out before she becomes a further pain in the proverbial.

Have you set any ground rules for the class? Basically tell them from the beginning that this is an advanced class, you will start on time, end on time, and if you need to have personal conversations, they need to step outside. I agree with Souzan's idea of having them work with hand weights, weighted body bars are also good. If they accuse you of being mean, remind them that they are in an advanced class, therefore you expect them to take your class time seriously.

As far as people putting their personal style into the veil dance, when you teach it, very clearly explain how you want arms, etc. held. For example, with the snake arms, do you want the shoulders involved or not. Each gives a totally different look to the move. If they are having problems with the one you want them to do, drill it ultra slow, that may show you where she is having problems. As said above, "take no prisoners" Those that are in the class to play will move on, those who appreciate you treating them like serious dancers will appreciate it.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

You need to let them know who's running the class. If one of them feels they need more input of break down, then give it, go over it with a fine toothcomb. Basically, if you can't please everyone, so you may as well please yourself. By this I mean that you structure you class a certain way and stick to it. Some will like it, some will not.

This! 10x over.

As a professional educator since 1986, I’ve taught a myriad of subjects to students of all ages. As a junior high-school teacher where the ages of the students ranged from 12-15 years, it was my duty to positively provide students with consistent boundaries of acceptable, respectful behaviour with regards to myself and their peers. We middle school teachers spend a great deal of time on classroom management, discipline, etc., it simply goes with the territory. Lots of fun ..g.: Really, though, I loved teaching this age group!

However, as a teacher of adults, I believe their behavioural patterns to be molded and entrenched, and that it is not my place or responsibility to spend time correcting inherent personality defects. What I see is what I get, in other words. Yes, it is important to set the tone and the ground rules of the class from the outset. If someone is spontaneously out-of-line, talkative, etc., I will address it immediately. Outright disrespect as reflected by Aaminah83's student calling a move “stupid” in front of other class members, and other such behaviours including the ever so subtle eye-rolling between students, passive-aggressive back-bitching, etc., are indicative of a deeper problem, in my opinion, and the responsibility lies fully with the perpetrators. Adults are entirely responsible for their own actions and it is simply immature and inexcusable to act out and then project the blame onto the teacher/leader while saying, well, he/she doesn't deserve my respect.

My mentor in Cairo says “With disrespectful students you must take out the sword,” and he is absolutely right. Dear Aaminah83, grow a spine (and I mean this kindly), give one warning and/or take out your scimitar and remove this problem student from your class. It will only get worse and it takes only one bad apple to spoil a class/group/troupe, etc.

Above all, be gentle with yourself. It's a journey for you, too!



Khalida

Originally Posted by Aaminah83

Hi Ladies! Thanks for the advice.

The only problem is that this girl has been dancing for 3 years now, and she is quite good and she knows what snake arms are, and has no problem doing them.

She is getting to the point where she thinks she is better then most people in the class (perhaps even me?) and is getting very confident very quickly.

Then suggest she go find a class where she feels her 'skills' can be better honed. If she keeps complaining, suggest she seeks another teacher. Simple.

You gotta take the reins. You are letting this class get out of control. They will only goof off and disrespect you as much as you allow them to. I am not excusing their behavior, but your plea for help sounds like you need some help in knowing better how to teach and be in command of your classroom.

Originally Posted by Aaminah83

Hi Ladies! Thanks for the advice.

The only problem is that this girl has been dancing for 3 years now, and she is quite good and she knows what snake arms are, and has no problem doing them.

She is getting to the point where she thinks she is better then most people in the class (perhaps even me?) and is getting very confident very quickly.

A ha! Do a class with nothing but technique. Slooooooooow technique. Like snake arms...but it takes 8-16 counts just to bring one arm up and the other arm down and then another 8-16 counts for the other side. Add in there some waaay advanced combos...ie layering a shimmy over an omi, moving sideways, forwards, and back with snake arms on top. What they need to learn is that there is a lot that they don't know. And make sure you stop to correct.
What they need is a reality check. It's easy to think you know everything around the 2-3 year mark. You need to make sure they realize that they don't and they still have a lot to learn. IMO

Originally Posted by khalida777

As a professional educator since 1986, I’ve taught a myriad of subjects to students of all ages. As a junior high-school teacher where the ages of the students ranged from 12-15 years, it was my duty to positively provide students with consistent boundaries of acceptable, respectful behaviour with regards to myself and their peers. We middle school teachers spend a great deal of time on classroom management, discipline, etc., it simply goes with the territory. Lots of fun ..g.: Really, though, I loved teaching this age group!

However, as a teacher of adults, I believe their behavioural patterns to be molded and entrenched, and that it is not my place or responsibility to spend time correcting inherent personality defects. What I see is what I get, in other words. Yes, it is important to set the tone and the ground rules of the class from the outset. If someone is spontaneously out-of-line, talkative, etc., I will address it immediately. Outright disrespect as reflected by Aaminah83's student calling a move “stupid” in front of other class members, and other such behaviours including the ever so subtle eye-rolling between students, passive-aggressive back-bitching, etc., are indicative of a deeper problem, in my opinion, and the responsibility lies fully with the perpetrators. Adults are entirely responsible for their own actions and it is simply immature and inexcusable to act out and then project the blame onto the teacher/leader while saying, well, he/she doesn't deserve my respect.

My mentor in Cairo says “With disrespectful students you must take out the sword,” and he is absolutely right. Dear Aaminah83, grow a spine (and I mean this kindly), give one warning and/or take out your scimitar and remove this problem student from your class. It will only get worse and it takes only one bad apple to spoil a class/group/troupe, etc.

Above all, be gentle with yourself. It's a journey for you, too!



Khalida

Well Said Khalida! I tend to agree with your mentor. This post is useful to me, I don't have advanced students yet, but I'd like to be prepared for the day that I do.

A dance class should be run like any other class. When I went to night school, this kind of behavior was not tolerated; neither should dance class be. If there are any complaints, they should be discussed after the class with you, but "anarchy" is not to be tolerated.

I went to a workshop a couple of years ago where most of the dancers were advanced. The instructor was well known in this area but she was pretty young and very friendly so I think people thought she was a little bit of a pushover. So when people started talking during the class and not paying attention to her, she yelled out loud, "I'm sorry, what did you say back there?" People got the message and that was the end of that.

Originally Posted by Caliana_flame

Well Said Khalida! I tend to agree with your mentor. This post is useful to me, I don't have advanced students yet, but I'd like to be prepared for the day that I do.

During a review of my recent posts, I came across this one and thought I should give more direct credit to my mentor in Cairo, Prof. Dr. Hassan Khalil. Absolutely wonderful, one of the great "pyramids" of Middle Eastern Dance, and I hope you all have a chance to study with him some day:

Prof. Dr. Hassan Khalil - ISOC - Cairo/Egypt


Khalida

I love the weights idea! lol
Love the lesson your students are teaching you (to be a more effective teacher). If you're lucky they'll eventually appreciate what you're teaching them too :-)

One thing I heard Dr. Phil say, that resonated with me, was when he was commenting on family who gave in to avoid conflict. He said that "giving in" or not being tough, made YOU feel better, but didn't help them. To me this situation is similar -- you don't want a fight, or the bad feelings, or for them to hate you...so you try to avoid the direct addressing of the situation.

But that isn't helping the students learn the dance, and actually prevents both the bratty ones and the sweetie ones from making progress. I'd be willing to bet that the ones who don't act badly are praying for you to lay down the law and move everybody on. I know I would be...........especially if I was paying to learn BD.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

1.A class of any kind is NOT a democracy.
2.Yes breakdown and down into infinity
3.Is a 3 year student really an advanced student?
4.Anybody so much better than everyone else really should move on.
5.Move her on and out before she becomes a further pain in the proverbial.

Yes, I agree. And democracy is different from anarchy.