Thread: Warm ups w/o stretching? What does your warmup consist of?

Check out "Hadia's Complete Oriental Belly Dance System."

HADIA'S DVD'S, Instructional & Training for Belly Dancers

it covers her warm up & cool down techniques

I do some stretching in my warmup but not right away. Generally we start doing some reaches over our heads and making big circles at our hips (hard to explain without doing it!) then go into a series of squats. By the end of the squats, everyone is pretty warmed up and we do some inner thigh/leg stretches and glute drills (sitting in straddle on the floor).

We go into drills after that and work up to moving around and/or choreography, so I don't need much more of a warmup. We stretch more at the end and that includes arms and neck/shoulder rolls.

Okay, so what is the justification for stretching at the END of a class? There seems to be a false dichotomy going on -- if stretching at the beginning is bad, that must mean stretching a the end is good.

Dr. Stark's "Stark reality of stretching" recommends doing a quick warm up (5-10 minutes) followed by stretching, THEN you do your activity, and your performance is enhanced by the stretching.

Anyone do this? (edited to add: besides PetiteNadirah)

Originally Posted by ssipes

Okay, so what is the justification for stretching at the END of a class? There seems to be a false dichotomy going on -- if stretching at the beginning is bad, that must mean stretching a the end is good.

Dr. Stark's "Stark reality of stretching" recommends doing a quick warm up (5-10 minutes) followed by stretching, THEN you do your activity, and your performance is enhanced by the stretching.

I do stretches at the end if I felt we were really over using a muscle - not to undo possible muscle spasm (no scientific evidence that this works). I also do stretches as a teaching tool - ie this is a good (and safe) way to do a hamstring stretch - we are only going to do it a couple of times - now go home and do it 3-4 times a week (after a warmup).

Usually at the end we cool down but seldom really stretch. One, because everyone's needs are different. Two, because there isn't time. When I do a "real" stretch routine for myself it would take 30-45minutes. 5 minutes is just a token.

The strteching at the beginning is bad is based on science - muscles stretch best if the body is warm - as in good blood flow, joint fluids flowing etc. Cold muscles won't give you a good stretch and if over enthusiastic or unwitting people try and force it to move they may tear something.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Okay, so what is the justification for stretching at the END of a class? There seems to be a false dichotomy going on -- if stretching at the beginning is bad, that must mean stretching a the end is good.

I always make sure to stretch a little at the end just as a means of cooling down. We usually will have been doing layering with walking or shimmy drills near the end of class so the stretching is just to relax the body (and brain!) before sending students home... In the winter, I make a point of doing more stretching at the end because I find that having the muscles all warm and worked up and then walking out in the freezing weather sometimes causes cramping and general not happy muscles. A cool down stretch at the end of class usually helps prevent that.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I do stretches at the end if I felt we were really over using a muscle - not to undo possible muscle spasm (no scientific evidence that this works).

So why at the end? If you are going to work certain muscles hard, why not stretch them after a warm up but before the serious drilling?

The strteching at the beginning is bad is based on science - muscles stretch best if the body is warm - as in good blood flow, joint fluids flowing etc. Cold muscles won't give you a good stretch and if over enthusiastic or unwitting people try and force it to move they may tear something.

But it doesn't take a whole class to warm muscles up. Just a few minutes. I understand that a real stretching session designed to increase flexibility can't happen in the course of a dance class, but looking at it from Stark's concept, stretching just a few key leg muscles after warm up but before performance aids in performance. He also says that one of the most important muscles to stretch every day are those of the calves.

So let's review what we know and what my question is:

Stretch first (using the term to mean true passive stretching): might cause injury in some people.

Stretch after warmup: can enhance performance.

Stretch last, after performance: some evidence it negates workout benefits. So what is the benefit?

I'm not being argumentative or asking rhetorical questions. Its a serious question. If we have questioned the tradition of stretching first, shouldn't we question the tradition of stretching last?

hm.. I'm interested to see if anyone has a sceintific explanation for stretching at the end.

As I posted before, I mainly do a little bit as a means of calming down the body/mind before ending class... I make a bigger point of having that cooldown when I know the class has been pretty challenging to people either physically or mentally (we joke that alot of my classes are a "brain workout" lol)

Originally Posted by ssipes

So let's review what we know and what my question is:

Stretch first (using the term to mean true passive stretching): might cause injury in some people.

Stretch after warmup: can enhance performance.

Stretch last, after performance: some evidence it negates workout benefits. So what is the benefit?

I was under the impression that stretching (after warmup) has little if any performance enhancement - for belly dance. This may be different for sports or dance that need extreme ROM. It has even less use if it is the wrong stretch for someone or is done incorrectly.

Stretching in general however, is useful - for muscle balance, joint working etc etc

I haven't come across stretching negating workout - was this in Stark? I can't find it. I cannot see how a proper stretch would undo any ROM increase achieved during exercise.

Realistically you cannot do group stretch in class that benefits everyone. If individuals break apart at the start of class to do individual stretches it loses class cohension. If they do it at the end it is not an issue. So, I guess my reason for having them at the end is it works better for a class and the students would not gain any real benefit at the beginning anyway.

I do a "walking warmup," meaning I put on a piece of music about 4 minutes long and take my students around in a circle, coaching them through posture and breath awareness, walking on beat, and then taking their arms through a range of motion, including big arm circles in two directions, and basic belly dance arm positions - "L" arms, belly dance second position with a focus on keeping the elbows lifted, and "V" arms with a focus on sending the energy through the fingertips. I usually incorporate a basic finger cymbal pattern as well to get students used to moving and playing at the same time. I also alternate between a regular, flat-footed walk and a stepping pattern, in my case a step-step-step-ball-change. This sequence starts getting the heart rate up gradually, mobilizes the joints, and forces students to direct their awareness to their bodies and what is happening within them.

After the walking warmup, we go through a full-body series, including mobilization of the neck and head (this section does include gentle stretches of the side of the neck), then head slides, shoulder rotations into chest articulations, and then hip work articulations. Exactly what I cover in the chest and hip sections depends somewhat on the moves and steps we'll be focusing on that day. The entire warmup probably takes at least 20 minutes or so, sometimes includes shimmies, sometimes not (I like to do shimmies after the body is really hot, usually later in class).

I only use the last 5 minutes of class for stretching, and I do a very generalized routine that is designed to relieve any stress caused by whatever we are working on. It's not a deep stretch and won't improve flexibility, but it will relieve any tightness that we may have developed in class and hopefully prevent soreness.

Deep stretching is a personal activity, and if people really want to become more flexible, they should probably take yoga or some other discipline that focuses on significantly increasing range of motion. There just isn't enough time in a one-hour belly dance class for going nuts on stretching.

The exception to this is a floorwork class...

I notice many teachers incorporate bellydance movements into their warmups, but I'm curious to know what you do when you teach absolute beginners that are not familiair with these movements (at least the first few classes)?

B

I start my class with joint mobilization movements and dynamic stretches.

Originally Posted by rakkasah_barbara

I notice many teachers incorporate bellydance movements into their warmups, but I'm curious to know what you do when you teach absolute beginners that are not familiair with these movements (at least the first few classes)?

Walk - those thigh muscles are ideal for getting the blood pumping. Change levels. Add arms (especially above the heart). It is also useful for gauging new students - can they walk in time? can they walk with panache? with grace? do they naturally swing the right or left arm with the right leg?

Lately, I have been using the traveling moves that we will use later in class as part of a combo for warming up. Those with experience can add hip articulations. Those without just stick to arms & getting the footwork down.

I do basic basic yoga. Forward bends, arm reaches, arm poses, shoulder rolls, head rolls, side to side hip stretches and then we move into light drills like circles and figure 8's before the cardio and choreography portion of the class then cool down.

not neccesarily all of these, but there is so much you can do with total beginners that doesnt ask for bellydance knowledge.

walking (on the spot or around). or a soft jog around.
or some easy stepping patterns on the spot, step kick, or the "u bend",
swaying

explaining posture

shake it out

rolling the feet on the spot
soft rotations of just about every body part, head to toe, or toe to head

some "preparatory" movements, related to the way we use our bodies and muscles for bellydancing, stuff they'll need later on. twists, slides, down bends, pelvis movements, chest movements

breathing exercises

walking with arm patterns
some easy arm patterns

explaining posture again

something like that

i use jumps sometimes, but only on good floors and at the end of the warm up

Originally Posted by rakkasah_barbara

I notice many teachers incorporate bellydance movements into their warmups, but I'm curious to know what you do when you teach absolute beginners that are not familiair with these movements (at least the first few classes)?

B

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

not neccesarily all of these, but there is so much you can do


walking (on the spot or around). or a soft jog around.
or some easy stepping patterns on the spot, step kick, or the "u bend",
swaying

explaining posture

shake it out

rolling the feet on the spot
soft rotations of just about every body part, head to toe, or toe to head

some "preparatory" movements, related to the way we use our bodies and muscles for bellydancing, stuff they'll need later on. twists, slides, down bends, pelvis movements, chest movements

breathing exercises

walking with arm patterns
some easy arm patterns

explaining posture again

something like that

i use jumps sometimes, but only on good floors and at the end of the warm up

I really liked the warm-up yesterday!! ..l;,

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

I do basic basic yoga. Forward bends, arm reaches, arm poses, shoulder rolls, head rolls, side to side hip stretches and then we move into light drills like circles and figure 8's before the cardio and choreography portion of the class then cool down.

Great if you are naturally flexible but anything with a stretch should be after the cardio for most people.

I do slow isolation warm-ups from head to toe speeding up as our muscles warm, then right into all the different shimmys... my ladies like to sweat!

which one, the baba mama? LOL. dont worry, that'll come up again. jullie zijn proefkonijnen

Originally Posted by ZoeDeKooning

I really liked the warm-up yesterday!! ..l;,

I do ---get correct posture, a couple of centering breaths w/ arms floating all the way up and down, big arm circles both directions( i used to get tense in shoulders from concentrating in class so i pay attention to this), big loose shimmies( twist and Egyptian leg ones), 2nd position easy squats , floating sunflower( stand in 2nd w/ arms in 2nd also, bend arms and torso to the right, coming forward bending torso and arms while bending knees, take torso and arms to left while straightening knees coming back to home---got this from a yoga class---sorta all the big muscles warmup. of course do both sides.)
Then go into feet, shoulders, neck and then ready for real BD stuff w/ a pretty well warmed up body. Warmup is usually 7-10 min. Some students whine about too much warmup---i tell them we are getting older and have to pay attention to our musical instrument( our bodies)