Thread: Are we teaching "dance" or just movement?

Who doesn't recognize this scenario:

You have a group of students who have been in class with you for some time and love it. They want to perform, and you let them do hafli, but they can't seem to remember the most basic choreography, STILL aren't doing the movements the way YOU do, and basically you feel like you will never be able to actually teach them how to DANCE instead of just moving to music.

???

Help me put this into perspective.

I look at a teacher like Tamalyn Dallal and I wonder how she's managed to turn out so many great dancers. But I also wonder for every one "Bozenka" how many "adequate hobbyists" does she create?

Sometimes I get very frustrated when I feel like I'm not training a roomful of would-be professionals. I want to take teaching as seriously as I take dancing, but I understand it still has to be fun for them. I KNOW they are not practicing as much as I did at that level, but I'm trying to be realistic about what I expect from them. I also don't believe you can make a "dancer" out of a student in just a year or two. Heck, we had 10 years of ballet before any of us felt like we might actually be approaching "dancer" status.

It's not a question of lowering standards, but I've gotten to the point where I think I just expect too much. I don't want to feel like I'm "dumbing it down" for them, but I guess I feel like I'm trying to teach an advanced class to intermediates, and I'm not sure how to fix that.

On the flip side, their musical expression and understanding is EXACTLY where I think it should be and sometimes they really impress me with their understanding and sensitivity towards the music. So I think I'm doing THAT right ...

thoughts???

I think that for every one student who really takes dancing seriously there are about 25 who don't, who are in it strictly as a diversion and for fun.

Performing is a big part of learning. While they may do well in class, when they get in front of an audience, as you know, the scenario changes. I can understand your frustration because when I was in their position I used to get annoyed when the other dancers I was dancing with didn't take it as seriously as me (although I tend to throw myself more into things than others because I am instense that way).

I don't know how other teachers feel but sometimes by the looks on their faces I think they may feel the same as you at times. So I would guess that as time goes on you will see some stars rise and others fall in the dust.

I find that there is not enough emphasiss on "the moves between the moves." How many students can execute a clean hip-drop, omi or shimmy but can't arabesque or comand control of the stage.

Often times teaching bellydance requires moving beyond bellydance, incorporating ballet, modern, and other fluid dymic dances into the vocabulary. It's so much more then moving across the floor while doing undulations. Traveling steps, floor patterns, feet positioning, low kicks, high kicks, spins, 3 point turns are all often over looked.

Too many classes are fashioned in a take your position in front of the mirror and move in place format. This needs to be broken up.

I watched this adorable dancer last night, and was simply wowed at her command of the music and her ability to move her body. Was she doing "bellydance moves?" Probably but they were incorporated into other movements in such a way that she was dancing, not just moving.

Not everyone will approach this point in their dance studies, many people will always be hobby dancers, and there are others that are simply not born to dance (just like there are people who are simply tone deaf and can't sing or play music.) Work on those who show genuine interest while making sure not to neglect the others.

I think the problem is compounded when small attendance forces a teacher to make classes from whomever will show up. As a result, the teacher doesn't have the luxury of splitting the hobbyists from the serious students, the tribals from the folklorists or cabaret dancers, the beginners from the intermediates or the intermediates from the advanced,..... Everybody ends up a little unhappy. Students who aren't ready for advanced material struggle when the class is above them, and more advanced students don't want to languish in remedial classes. Students who want to learn something else (different topics, material at another level, whatever) are stuck with classes that aren't quite what they need to progress. Things drop to the lowest common denominator, and in many areas, a student simply doesn't have the option of pulling up stakes and going to a different teacher. It is tough to find a balance, particularly where "majority rules" affects the "minorities."

I think that is the teachers job, it is her/his duty to make the students understand there is more to this dance than a hip drop and shimmy. The teacher needs to make them aware of the little nuances inbetween (transitions) that make it so juicy and delightful.

If the teacher IS doing that and the students still arent' grasping than maybe she needs to re exam the teaching process and find a way that works. Constantly try new teaching methods until something is found that works.
That was so frustating to me as a student with my first teacher. She only new one way to teach and if the students didn't get it, to bad.
Sorry, that is not what a good teacher should be doing. Not saying you are. Just that if it is bothering you maybe re evaluate the way you are teaching them.

As far as choreography goes, I've been dancing for nearly 10 years and I couldn't do a full choreo. if my life depended on it. Some people just can't get their minds to work that way.
I'll tell you a little thing I picked up about people who are GOOD at choregraphs are USUALLY very good at math. I think it's something to do with that side of the brain. I'm not good at math and science.
It's the INSTRUCTORS job to find a way for the student to get it. Don't get upset, try something new.

I think Tourbeau is right.

In larger cities, teachers can specialize more. You can teach a tough, serious class and those who don't have the level of interest or natural ability to keep up can go down the street to a studio that has a kinder, gentler approach and everyone can be happy.

(except that instead of recognizing the beauty of having a smorgasbord of styles, the two studio owners will probably mock each other's approaches and each think their way is the only right way.)

Those of us who teach in less populated areas have to teach to the majority. If I only taught people with the time, energy, interest and finances to study seriously, I'd have had about 3 students in the 8 years or so I've been teaching (and that's a generous figure).

It IS frustrating at times. For the most part, my students aren't interested in the things I'd like to be teaching them. (rhythms, musical structure, cultural context, styles of dance -- you know, EVERYTHING besides the moves that we think long-term students should know.) I teach it, but their eyes glaze over and they retain nothing.

As far as dance readiness -- my students are not exactly a crack team of athletes who maintain their bodies as instruments. Quite the opposite -- but they NEED to dance, it's been so good for their bodies and their spirits, and I'm very proud of them all.

I could go on and on, I wrestle with this issue constantly. I may come back and muse some more later...

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It IS frustrating at times. For the most part, my students aren't interested in the things I'd like to be teaching them. (rhythms, musical structure, cultural context, styles of dance -- you know, EVERYTHING besides the moves that we think long-term students should know.) I teach it, but their eyes glaze over and they retain nothing.

I think I am blessed that mine DO seem as interested in the music and culture as the dance. Or maybe my enthusiasm is contagious.

Thing is, they ROCK improvisation. I'm teaching a song right now (Min Feegus actually) that has a great blend of moodiness and power and drama, and we're alternating choreographed sections with parts where they improvise. They are doing great with this. Actually they are now a wonderful group, but what I'm struggling with is keeping them challenged while still keeping it fun.

They really don't like cymbals and they don't like "locomoting" movements -- walking with figure 8s, etc. Drills across the floor become "drudgery" and they groan whenever I ask them to line up on the long side of the room for drills.

I'm thinking that just doing choreographies over and over again is the better (or more interesting) way to get them to drill, but I know a lot of students on Bhuz say they hate choreography classes. I'm also thinking the 1/2 choreo, 1/2 improv option is best for me to see how they are progressing.

You know actually the more I type, the more I think I've figured this out, AND the more I appreciate my core group of ladies. :)

As far as dance readiness -- my students are not exactly a crack team of athletes who maintain their bodies as instruments. Quite the opposite -- but they NEED to dance, it's been so good for their bodies and their spirits, and I'm very proud of them all.

I could go on and on, I wrestle with this issue constantly. I may come back and muse some more later...

Yeah, I know. Same here. And please do come back and muse. We have similar situations.

Originally Posted by Fotia

I think that for every one student who really takes dancing seriously there are about 25 who don't, who are in it strictly as a diversion and for fun.

Performing is a big part of learning. While they may do well in class, when they get in front of an audience, as you know, the scenario changes. I can understand your frustration because when I was in their position I used to get annoyed when the other dancers I was dancing with didn't take it as seriously as me (although I tend to throw myself more into things than others because I am instense that way).

I don't know how other teachers feel but sometimes by the looks on their faces I think they may feel the same as you at times. So I would guess that as time goes on you will see some stars rise and others fall in the dust.

I agree, after years and years of taking classes, performing and now teaching I know that it is rare to find a student who possess the passion, the drive, the level of commitment it takes to spend the time and money to train and learn and reach a pro level. A really good dancer comes along only once every few years. I had this discussion once with my own teacher who has been in the business for 50 years. In her opinion, a great dancer came along out of her students once every 10 years. I'm talking great dancer. She turned out many, many professional dancers but she considered them to be only adequate dancers. These typically are the ones that last 3-5 years. They are good for the moment but they have no longevity because they stopped learning and improving once they started working.

Most of the students I have are in it for exercise only. I know they don't practice at home. I teach them steps, I teach them choreo, I teach them rhythm and musicality but if they don't practice on their own they will never get good. I have some that are interested until they find out it's hard work to become a good dancer and that it takes longer than a 10 week class. In my 5 years of teaching I haven't yet come across one student that possessed all the attributes to become a real pro. You have to really want it and most just don't.

even the ones that are just excited hobby-ists, i teach "dance", not movement, at a lot of very different levels.

it doesnt frustrate me. i love seeing the evolution in each and everyone of my students, from the ones that will never "get" it but keep coming and enjoy themselves, to the ones that keep coming where i dont understand why they do, to the ones that have gallons of talent, to the ones that have more ambition than talent, to the ones than have too little ambition, all of them... it makes it exciting, a challenge, i love teaching

anyway, yes, having the luxury of having a lot of different levels help, we have, let me count, 5 or 6 usually.

Well trying to teach the whole package takes MUCH time! Some students will never achieve this and others will. that doesn't make either group less dedicated or lesser. (just my opinion here).
Music teachers teach hobbiests all the time, not every one will ever be pro!
I guess if you are intending to go out and do paid public gigs with them then yes you should expect great things. Or do you have a sudent group, if so it should be fun!
Maybe you could consider doing dances with some small group and solo slots built in the dances? That way stronger students can use their skills and weaker students can do smaller group parts or whole group parts appropriate to their level?
It takes a very long time to make movement (which is what dance is) into an art form (which is also what dance is)

I teach people how to dance from day one.

Do they get it? No.

Of course they don't. They don't know how to execute movement, let alone create BD.

It's just that while we're drilling away (should have hit oil a long time ago) I'll let go with a few nuggets of info. One nugget could be about culture. Another could be about the music we're using or music in general. Still another might be about the style of BD we're doing.

Some folks might hear something in the culture nugget that piques their interest and remember it. Music nuggets most often stick best with students with some music background. Most students don't know there are different styles of BD, and they might or might not remember what I said. However, if they hear similar nuggets a few times over a session, something might stick.

Whenever we string two or more movements together, which I do beginning Day One, I briefly explain the relationship between the movements and why we might use them together. Do they remember anything about what I said? Probably not, since they probably also don't even remember my name. But, they've now heard it once and will hear it again in different ways over the session. Perhaps by the end of the 5-week session, someone might retain at least the idea that the two movements go together smoothly, even if he/she doesn't know why exactly. By the end of the next session, that same student might understand the why. Of course, it might be six months of continuous lessons before anybody "gets" the concept, but at least it's available to them from the beginning.

Once we have a few movements/very simple combos under our *ahem* belts, we'll start listening more to the music and how the music helps us to know what to do next. I can't be terribly detailed with the music, of course, but major changes in the music will elicit a change in movement. This concept could take months for anyone to understand, but it's there for them.

Once someone knows the how and the why of putting two particular movements together, and can hear changes in the music, then he/she is on his/her way to actually dancing.

(continued because I am so verbose)

(continued)

I think *dancing* probably doesn't really start until intermediate level for most people. Even then, as we have seen from the frustrated posts on this thread alone, folks are still technique driven and often don't want to do the work necessary to learn how to do more than string movements together. The movements might be good, the technique might be good, but somehow the "dancing" is missing.

In my perfect world, I'd like to have several levels of classes:
I. Foundations where absolute basics are drilled (beginning beginners).
II. Continuing beginners where the absolute basics are worked as variations and new movement is introduced.
III. Early intermediates where we take the variations and new movement from the previous level, add more complexity and continue to increase the movement vocabulary; learning the dance between the movements.
IV. Intermediates performance where students can perform at haflas, etc., using the concepts from III, especially utilizing "the dance between movements."
V. Early advanced where we step away from group choreo and toward solo choreo and improv. (Note: improv is the default for levels I-III)
VI. Advanced where students return to group choreo for performances at festivals, etc plus improv/general solo skills. These folks are at a stage to be mentored into gigging.

*sigh*

I can dream, can't I?

Deborah

Originally Posted by faaria

Well trying to teach the whole package takes MUCH time! Some students will never achieve this and others will. Music teachers teach hobbiests all the time, not every one will ever be pro!
I guess if you are intending to go out and do paid public gigs with them then yes you should expect great things. Or do you have a sudent group, if so it should be fun!
It takes a very long time to make movement (which is what dance is) into an art form (which is also what dance is)

Yes!

Deborah

Originally Posted by aziyade

They really don't like cymbals and they don't like "locomoting" movements -- walking with figure 8s, etc. Drills across the floor become "drudgery" and they groan whenever I ask them to line up on the long side of the room for drills.

If they've got a negative association built up with the lining-up-to-travel situation, maybe different types of drills would help?

Like...form a giant circle and move to the right for a while, then the left, then everyone toward the center and out again? Or form a congo line around the room?

I guess sometimes you just have to tell students that the "drudgery" is how dance is learned. Maybe taping them at the beginning of the session and the end doing the very same drudgery would help them see it's value?
It is strange to me that students have this idea. I grew up in Ballet, you started at the bar and stayed there for a half hour then progressed to center, then across the floor, every day, several times per week, yes same stuff again and again and again. I guess everyone wnats instant everything these day huh?

I've been wondering the exact same thing recently, aziyade. I was recently told that a lot of people coming to a class like mine are not going to expect to actually encounter...a dance instructor. Not sure if that makes any sense, but I think some students are just looking for a bit of fun. I think they're surprised by the complexity and nuances of this dance form. That is, I don't think some people realize that this is a dance- just like jazz or ballet. I find it frustrating, but I love my students. Seeing them light up when they get the moves (and accept that it's a dance with cultural implications) is fantastic!

I think people's expectations are colored by their background (former dance students or not) and by where you teach.

If you'd never taken a bellydance class before, wouldn't you have different expectations for a class offered through:

1) Gold's Gym or other health club
2) Community center
3) Dance studio
4) Pagan bookstore

I think people are more likely to expect a 'real dance class' if you're teaching in a dance studio -- especially if your class is offered in their catalog alongside the other classes.

[QUOTE=aziyade;434934]I think I am blessed that mine DO seem as interested in the music and culture as the dance. Or maybe my enthusiasm is contagious.

Thing is, they ROCK improvisation. I'm teaching a song right now (Min Feegus actually) that has a great blend of moodiness and power and drama, and we're alternating choreographed sections with parts where they improvise. They are doing great with this. Actually they are now a wonderful group, but what I'm struggling with is keeping them challenged while still keeping it fun.

They really don't like cymbals and they don't like "locomoting" movements -- walking with figure 8s, etc. Drills across the floor become "drudgery" and they groan whenever I ask them to line up on the long side of the room for drills.

I'm thinking that just doing choreographies over and over again is the better (or more interesting) way to get them to drill, but I know a lot of students on Bhuz say they hate choreography classes. I'm also thinking the 1/2 choreo, 1/2 improv option is best for me to see how they are progressing.

QUOTE]

The majority of paying students come to class to have fun and keep reasonably fit. They're not that concerned with the nuances of this dance. However, if they do want to perform, then they need to know that they cannt just get up and 'tootle' to their heart's content. The only way to get good tight movements and choreography is to drill. Break down and drill. Even ballet dancers at the top of their profession drill. Its absolutely necessary for muscle memory. I tell my students, you cannot expect your body to respond to the music if it cannot remember what to do. It's not just about using your brain to remember movements. If they don't like it, then don't let them perform...at least not as a group.

[QUOTE=Lauren_;434926]

As far as dance readiness -- my students are not exactly a crack team of athletes who maintain their bodies as instruments. Quite the opposite -- but they NEED to dance, it's been so good for their bodies and their spirits, and I'm very proud of them all.

[\QUOTE]

Lauren, you've summed up just how I feel about my students... who I left back home and really miss.

I'm an absolute 100% hardliner and purist. I'm terribly, terribly intolerant of people who put themselves out there as "professionals" and who just are NOT up to scratch. But teaching, on the other hand, has made me really appreciate that not all people are professional calibre, nor are interested in being so - but can still be genuinely interested and devoted students, researching music and dance and sociology and goodness knows what in a more complete and rounded fashion than many professionals.

It's difficult teaching a room full of "funsters" - perhaps I'm lucky in that I finally found a class of students who, while lots of fun, were very serious about "getting good". Both they and I knew they were a long way off from anywhere even near "pro" - but their dedication and eventually their achievement in themselves was such a joy.

Pardon me, I seem to have gone all soft and New Agey. I shall go off somewhere to harden up and get back to the familiar crab I'm becoming. ..l;,

Ah thank you all for your thoughts. This really HAS put this whole situation into perspective for me.

I am no longer even MENTIONING performing in my classes. I am eliminating the word "audience" from my lower level class teaching, and trying to change my vocabulary to reflect the joy of dancing at home for one's self, rather than talking about the stage, etc.

The group that I have now -- I have really neglected to appreciate them. I got ride of the drama-mamas and now we have a group of people who just like dancing. Will they ever be professional? Probably not, but I think even they are cool with it. They do try, and they do practice. They ARE living up to my standards for students. I need to remember that. Are they ready for performing outside of haflas? Nope. I'm not sure they ever will be, but we also have a series of easy Reda-inspired folk dances that we drag out for cultural shows, and I think that will be enough for now.

So the Suhaila-inspired cymbal dance with swords choreo -- well, maybe that's not going to happen with this group :) I need to learn to live with that! LOL

Thanks!!!!!

Whenever I take lessons of any kind, be it a workshop or just as a review, anything they do in class I consider as storing it up in the bank. Because it is already adding to the riches you have already learned. It's like all other forms of education - nobody can take that away from you. Have you noticed that at a lot of workshops you start out by drilling the old stuff before learning the new stuff, even though you've done it a million times?

And as far as practice goes, you can't do enough. It's a mantra that I hear over and over again, and find myself telling others who want to learn it; there are no shortcuts.

I always look clumsy and totally unqualified in any class or workshop because I am first learning it. It's when I go home and practice it making it a part of my own body is when it starts to show, just like nourishing a plant and it starts to blossom.

Originally Posted by aziyade

They really don't like cymbals and they don't like "locomoting" movements -- walking with figure 8s, etc. Drills across the floor become "drudgery" and they groan whenever I ask them to line up on the long side of the room for drills.

When I started my Level 2 class on walking with shimmies, they HATED it. So we started playing Red Light Green Light. Green light is always walking across the floor with shimmies. We have a few different variations for red light, including posing, improv, facing towards vs. away from the direction of travel, etc.

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

When I started my Level 2 class on walking with shimmies, they HATED it. So we started playing Red Light Green Light. Green light is always walking across the floor with shimmies. We have a few different variations for red light, including posing, improv, facing towards vs. away from the direction of travel, etc.

I love that!!

One thing to remember is that we shouldn’t be too hard on the “for fun” students…because what we see as being frivolous fun often isn’t frivolous. There are plenty of very worthy “fun” reasons that exclude becoming a performer or serious dancer. Fun can mean escape from a stress full homelife or worklife, it can mean a student is finally realizing that he/she is an important person to spend his/her time and money on, in can help students get comfortable and enjoy the bodies they have, or get their bodies moving if they’ve lived a sedentary life and need more excersize.

I think a big mistake dancers can make is always telling people that “anyone can do this dance form” instead of stressing that “it is a dance form that can be enjoyed on many levels, but like any other art not everyone is going to become a professional!” I think part of preventing people from performing too early or having unrealistic goals is that teacher should be ready to accept and enjoy students who have no plans to perform or become Dancers with a capital D. I don’t mean dumb things down, just realize that the fun some students are looking for isn’t a negative thing.

I used to think that for every 100 students you might get that one serious, dedicated to learning student. Now after doing this for 12 years, I think it is more like 1 in 5oo.!! (i don't live in a densely populated area)
I like asking them (students) their first week why they are taking the class and if they don't know, I ask them to think about it and tell us the following week. That way you get a pretty good idea of what you are dealing with. they say mostly for fun, exercise, to get out of the house, and to hang out with other ladies, etc......Will everyone raise their hand that is interested in performing in the future......crickets chirp.....chirp.....chirp.

My students don't come in to perform at all. Once they discover the joy of performing in the warm, supportive bubble of our studio, they tend to get hooked. Only then do they really become interested in dancing well and someday doing a solo.

Sometimes I feel like I spend as much time teaching performance as dance. Appearing confident, making eye contact, putting energy into your face and movements... yadda yadda. But after a show, I realize that this is the most valuable stuff for them in their daily lives. My students have told me they're more comfortable making presentations at work, handling difficult clients, etc. after performing as bellydancers.

And they're getting over their notion that if they're not classically beatiful, no one should look at them.

Women who once thought of themselves as clumsy, ugly, oafish -- dressing up in sequins and performing for an audience who receives them warmly and enthusiastically -- that's good stuff. The motivation to really dance well, to understand the dance, comes along MUCH later for most of my students.

Of course I have to keep them grounded and aware that the supportive environment doesn't extend much beyond the studio walls or they'll get hurt.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

My students don't come in to perform at all. Once they discover the joy of performing in the warm, supportive bubble of our studio, they tend to get hooked. Only then do they really become interested in dancing well and someday doing a solo.

Sometimes I feel like I spend as much time teaching performance as dance. Appearing confident, making eye contact, putting energy into your face and movements... yadda yadda. But after a show, I realize that this is the most valuable stuff for them in their daily lives. My students have told me they're more comfortable making presentations at work, handling difficult clients, etc. after performing as bellydancers.

And they're getting over their notion that if they're not classically beatiful, no one should look at them.

Women who once thought of themselves as clumsy, ugly, oafish -- dressing up in sequins and performing for an audience who receives them warmly and enthusiastically -- that's good stuff. The motivation to really dance well, to understand the dance, comes along MUCH later for most of my students.

Of course I have to keep them grounded and aware that the supportive environment doesn't extend much beyond the studio walls or they'll get hurt.

All of this!

Also, to quote Ozma, "I think a big mistake dancers can make is always telling people that “anyone can do this dance form” instead of stressing that “it is a dance form that can be enjoyed on many levels, but like any other art not everyone is going to become a professional!”

I usually say that anyone can do this dance form as a social dance. Then, almost verbatim, I use Ozma's words, "it is a dance form that can be enjoyed on many levels, but like any other art not everyone is going to become a professional" or perform on a stage for an audience.

Deborah

I need my eyes checked, I thought the title of this thread was "Are we teaching "dance" or lust? ,r:;

Lauren makes an excellent point [as always]

At my yearly show, I make a big point of the fact that so much as getting dressed and walking out on that stage is a huge accomplishment, and if something goes wrong, it goes wrong.

For an adult woman to overcome all the baggage that usually comes with, and take that step out there- it takes such bravery.

Yes, sometimes I wish I had all pro dancers to work with, so we could do the heavy hard core stuff- but in their own way, those who never will be that are equally as rewarding, even if you don't get to 'play' as much because of the different goals.