Thread: Ethical dilemma ...

Okay, one more question for today. :)

One of my students recently parted ways with me, and began teaching her own classes. (Those in the teachers group know what I'm talking about.) I don't really see her anymore, but my "network" in the 50-mile radius around me feels the need to keep me updated on her doings.

I was recently informed that she was giving her classes (as part of their enrollment fee) several burned CDs and a burned copy of Aziza's Practice Companion. I hit the roof.

Now, 3 years ago or so I DID make the mistake of burning a compilation CD of music for students to practice to. So I'm just as guilty as her, but I have spent time over the last few years really stressing that we should NOT do that, and my classes now are perfectly happy buying CDs. Still, I'm damned for that one instance and I know it !!!

In the time I spent with this student (who is young and seems to think that EVERYTHING she wants should be free) I tried over and over again to make her understand the importance of not stealing music, and not burning copies for all your friends. I could see she didn't care, and I know it still went on while my back was turned, but I made a big issue out of not loaning dvds or Cds to her because I didn't want 40 copies of them floating around.

So here's the thing -- this student has made it quite clear to me that my opinion regarding how she conducts her class is of no importance to her. I would send her an email telling her it's unethical to do what she's doing, but she won't pay any attention.

My "source" for this info is "pretty sure" it's the Aziza dvd, but in any case, it's obviously not a dvd this student made of her own dancing. I wish I had some way to make sure it actually WAS the Aziza dvd, because I am seriously considering sending Aziza a note letting her know what's going on, and asking her to send an email to this person telling her to cease and desist. I think maybe if it actually came from Aziza, it might hold more weight. ???

Am I completely insane for thinking this way? Should I just mind my own business? I know I probably should, but I just feel so PEEVED at people who steal other people's work. Especially after HOW MANY lectures about how piracy and stealing hurts our industry???? Should I try to find out exactly what dvd it is, and then let the producer know, or should I just drop it, be glad this girl is out of my classes, and mind my own business?

I really do not know what to do here.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I was recently informed that she was giving her classes (as part of their enrollment fee) several burned CDs and a burned copy of Aziza's Practice Companion. I hit the roof.

Now, 3 years ago or so I DID make the mistake of burning a compilation CD of music for students to practice to. So I'm just as guilty as her, but I have spent time over the last few years really stressing that we should NOT do that, and my classes now are perfectly happy buying CDs. Still, I'm damned for that one instance and I know it !!!

Whoa, whoa, whoa...these two things are NOT the same. Making one compilation CD for your students is NOT the same as giving them several CDs and a DVD!! That is ridiculous!!

DVDs have friggen FBI warnings on them, for goodness sakes! Doesn't she realize it's a federal offense to mass produce them and distribute them??

I am normally not a stickler for sharing music to a degree. But this is ridiculous. Is there anyway you could send one of your students as "spy" to her class so you can find out what DVD she is distributing? I would certainly contact the dancer who's dvd it is, if you have proof.

I would honestly say just drop it. And this is probably a head-smacker for people who know me, because I WILL often confront people for shady business dealings and poor ethics.

On the other hand, from personal experience, I know that in this case things will be turned around to make YOU look like some sort of jealous, insecure hater who is trying to undermine this girl because she quit your classes.

I am to the point now where I just wait for karma to do its work. I see plenty of things that outrage me, and I have had plenty of decent business opportunities undermined by shady business dealings on the part of other dancers (including a particularly craptastic episode last weekend). I am to the point of throwing up my hands and saying, fine, do what you will. At least I can walk away knowing I have some modicum of ethics and honesty in my own classes and business dealings.

Just continue to try to be a model of ethical behavior and quality instruction. It will come out in the wash...

You definitely shouldn't pull any legal wrath down on this person until you are sure she is doing something illegal. It might be great fun and very dramatic to have some big "J'accuse!" scene with her, but if you're wrong, you'll look like a fool.

The real issue is whether it is worth your time to pursue the matter. Since you are not the one being directly wronged by the piracy, getting involved means you risk being seen as petty, vindictive, and meddling, and in all likelihood, it will accomplish nothing. This person has already made it clear that she doesn't care what you think, and she doesn't value your ethics. Under threat of a real lawsuit from Aziza, she may change her tune, but anything less will probably not make a difference. You could try to spread the word in the local dance community that what she is doing is wrong, but again, all you'll probably get is a lot of people talking about how they don't understand what you are so upset about and how you ought to get a life. Sadly, most dancers violate copyright laws on a regular basis, so you are going to have a tough time rallying those troupes against her.

Probably the only thing you could accomplish is to contact her and say that you disagree with what she is doing, and you'd prefer if she would distance herself from you, as you'd rather not have people thinking you were the one who taught her to be a criminal...at which point, she'll probably be happy to brush you off for good. Then keep your own nose clean and wait for karma to get her in the end.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

Whoa, whoa, whoa...these two things are NOT the same. Making one compilation CD for your students is NOT the same as giving them several CDs and a DVD!! That is ridiculous!!

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe both are considered violations of copyright laws. There is a difference in the extent of the crime--one bootleg CD is not the same as 100 pirated copies--but it's still not legal to copy and distribute licensed media.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe both are considered violations of copyright laws. There is a difference in the extent of the crime--one bootleg CD is not the same as 100 pirated copies--but it's still not legal to copy and distribute licensed media.

Well, I am a lawyer, and I agree that both actions are *illegal*....but I do not think that making one mixed CD for some students and mass-producing dvds to distribute as a marketing gimmick are *ethically* the same thing.

I would probably try to get confirmation of what DVD she is distributing or what songs are on her mix CD. Confirmation as, try to get an actual copy. I would then forward the proof to the copyright owner and tell them, "Just wanted to let you know that xyz person is doing this...." and leave it to them to decide whether to take action.

If I were the copyright owner, I'd want to be told.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

Well, I am a lawyer, and I agree that both actions are *illegal*....but I do not think that making one mixed CD for some students and mass-producing dvds to distribute as a marketing gimmick are *ethically* the same thing.

I was pretty sure you were a lawyer, which is why I was surprised that you were allowing the gray area on this. If you go back to the OP, she admitted that she had made CDs to distribute to her class once (multiple copies one time, not an isolated copy of a CD), and then she was complaining that the other dancer was distributing copied DVDs to her students. I don't see a line to draw here. Bootlegging a class full of CDs is just as illegal as bootlegging a class full of DVDs. Of course, committing a crime once and being remorseful is different than habitually doing illegal things and feeling no guilt, but from a legal standpoint, it's a slippery slope, isn't it? Do most students approach things with the integrity to understand that difference? Making a one-time copy of an out-of-print recording for a close friend whom you know will be respectful of the "necessity" of breaking the law is a different situation than saying, "Screw Miles Copeland--Bellydance Superstars CDs for everybody!" and rampantly pirating media for your students. The bottom line is that students see you giving them illegal copies of CDs or DVDs, and it gives them the impression that it's okay to copy and distribute media at will. I've heard that the copyright system in the Middle East varies greatly from our own, and bootlegging is almost tacitly accepted there, but it isn't in other countries, such as the US. I think teachers have an obligation to encourage students to purchase their own copies of material, even if it means they have to select from a narrow band of widely available recordings instead of their own fabulous "10-year compilations" for their class work. In this day and age, it's not so hard to find songs that are available as inexpensive, individual downloads, and if your students can't afford $5-10 a year for legal recordings, then they ought to find a cheaper hobby.

All you are going off are rumors, I'd drop it. You could be wrong. Plus you said the CD were given out as part of the fee, right? So how do you know she is not spending the money buying the clips off I-tunes and burning the CD for the students? Using each ones tuition each time? I think many people get up in arms over a rumor to soon and can destroy someone reputation, even if later on you find out it was fabricated. I'm surprise at how may people entertain there students gossip. Whats unethical to me is that you are discussing another teacher habits with your student/s, and not telling your student to stop spreading rumors

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

The bottom line is that students see you giving them illegal copies of CDs or DVDs, and it gives them the impression that it's okay to copy and distribute media at will.

Yep, exactly. That's what I'm afraid happened. I made that ONE dang compilation CD and it's going to haunt me forever.

Like I said, it's extremely hypocritical of me, but I'm trying to atone for it.

I think teachers have an obligation to encourage students to purchase their own copies of material, even if it means they have to select from a narrow band of widely available recordings instead of their own fabulous "10-year compilations" for their class work.

You're exactly right.


I'm not saying it's not wrong -- and I know I was in the wrong. That's not the dilemma. The issue is whether I should call out this particular instructor for doing so.

I think what I will do is this: I'll stay out of it, unless somebody brings me an actual copy of the alleged burned DVD. If I get that copy, I will send a brief message to the DVD producer letting them know what's going on and letting them deal with it or not. I do need to stay out of this, for personal reasons, but my beginning students are going to get the copyright lecture next week!!

Originally Posted by toria_dances

So how do you know she is not spending the money buying the clips off I-tunes and burning the CD for the students?

Well, one of them is that CD that I made, three years ago.

I'm surprise at how may people entertain there students gossip.

It's not exactly gossip if you advertise it on your website.

Whats unethical to me is that you are discussing another teacher habits with your student/s, and not telling your student to stop spreading rumors

?? Please reread the original post. I am not discussing any of this with my students.

Some of my fellow dancers in this area (and some students and former students) share information with me on a regular basis, whether it's who's having a workshop, who's teaching where, or how much the going rate for various events is. In the past this has worked very well to prevent accidental undercutting and to make sure we all attend each other's events.

People in this "network" brought this particular issue to my attention. The only comments I have made to anyone about this have been here in this thread.

Ok I though your 'source' was a student. either way I would ask your source not to spread rumors, if she/he has some facts about the situation and takes offences to it then they should handle it as they see fit, why go around telling other people? the she "pretty sure" sounds like catty gossip, Does not sound like she was updating you on events. From your post it sounds like you have a problem with her being a teacher?

Handing out copies of Aziza's video is WRONG and chaps my a$$.

I'm not sure you can get involved without starting some ugliness that could go back and forth for years.

Then again, standing by and letting wrong things happen because you don't want to stick your neck out is also wrong.

*brain explodes*

Originally Posted by toria_dances

From your post it sounds like you have a problem with her being a teacher?

Yes, that was a whole different series of threads....

Until you have more compelling evidence, I'd drop it. At this point, it's only a rumor, and who knows what's true or not?

Did you admit to your students that you screwed up and that the students shouldn't repeat your mistake? I wouldn't completely beat yourself up over it. Yes, what you did is wrong, but I'm assuming what you did was out of ignorance, not full disregard for the law.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Originally Posted by Tourbeau
The bottom line is that students see you giving them illegal copies of CDs or DVDs, and it gives them the impression that it's okay to copy and distribute media at will.

Yep, exactly. That's what I'm afraid happened. I made that ONE dang compilation CD and it's going to haunt me forever.

Like I said, it's extremely hypocritical of me, but I'm trying to atone for it.

As long as you make a reasonable and reinforcing attempt to tell your students that media piracy is wrong, I don't think you need to beat yourself up over a mistake you made in the past.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

I am to the point now where I just wait for karma to do its work. ...

I feel that this is so. Getting all uptight about this is pointless. Let it go.

Okay, I agree with those who say "let it go." I am not taking any position on this publicly, if anybody says any more about it.

When I hear "gossip" from the network (or about anything from my girlfriends), I'm TRYING very very hard to just shrug and say "Well, all we can do is keep our own houses clean." I figure if I'm nonchalant enough about it, they will lose interest in sharing.

I'm so evil though -- I love gossip. Isn't that one of the seven deadly sins or something? Argh.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback. I do firmly believe that what comes around goes around, so I need to remember to just step back and let the world turn as it will. Thanks! :)

Gossip is very seductive, isn't it. I have certain dance buddies I can share dance gossip with, in public I try to avoid it like the plague.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Handing out copies of Aziza's video is WRONG and chaps my a$$....*brain explodes*

Yeah.

I know it's probably smart to just stay out of it and make sure YOU are ethical and teaching your students to be the same, it would leave you with less drama and possibly save a forever long feud between this other dancer and yourself.

However, when I sit and think about what I'd do if I heard this was happening (and with one of my former students!) I know I would say something.
It's wrong either way no matter if it's music or DVD, but especially with such wonderful instructors as Aziza who I admire greatly- I think I'd almost take it personally that anyone would treat their work as something to be given away for free. I don't even like loaning my DVDs to people...

They are well worth the money spent on them and if someone wants the benefits of a particular CD or DVD, they should buy it for themselves and respect & support the artist.

-----

Sidenote... is it illegal to burn copies of cut/mixed music used for specific choreographies? If so..how would one go about that correctly? I hope i'm not being a horrible person but I do (rarely, but I still do) email songs to my performance class that I have edited for our choreographies so that they can practice on their own.

Sidenote... is it illegal to burn copies of cut/mixed music used for specific choreographies? If so..how would one go about that correctly? I hope i'm not being a horrible person but I do (rarely, but I still do) email songs to my performance class that I have edited for our choreographies so that they can practice on their own.

I'd be interested in this too. I personally edit a lot of our music, so the 'cut' is unique and utterly impossible to get from anywhere else. If I want my troupe girls to practice our dance vocab, I have to provide the music!

In every other circumstance, I tell people to buy, and I will never hand out albums or even songs that are as the artist produced them. Just that I have no way to get around the problem of the cuts we use.

I always do it at a very low sound quality, and always provide original artist and track info in the hopes they will like and cuy. The cd's are purely a practice tool- I don't think quality would even be up to using for performance- I cut and keep all our performance cds, and I pay license dues for that.

So, anyone able to clarify?

Originally Posted by Amira_Siddiqah

I'd be interested in this too. I personally edit a lot of our music, so the 'cut' is unique and utterly impossible to get from anywhere else. If I want my troupe girls to practice our dance vocab, I have to provide the music!

In every other circumstance, I tell people to buy, and I will never hand out albums or even songs that are as the artist produced them. Just that I have no way to get around the problem of the cuts we use.

I always do it at a very low sound quality, and always provide original artist and track info in the hopes they will like and cuy. The cd's are purely a practice tool- I don't think quality would even be up to using for performance- I cut and keep all our performance cds, and I pay license dues for that.

So, anyone able to clarify?

I make sure to use, in any class choreography, music that is uncut and performed for the whole piece. That way, students can download or buy the music. Yes, it limits my choices, but it's ethically the right thing to do.

I feel irrational guilt when people ask me to burn a copy of mine for them and I refuse. It seems sort of mean. Like, 'yes I've got one, but I'm not sharing it's mine, mine, mine!'. I realise this is irrational, so I keep refusing :-)

Okay, if we have our students buy compilation CDs or individual tracks off iTunes, then they have already bought the individual songs. As long as they have already legally purchased the original song, I don't see anything wrong with editing the song and then giving them the edited version to use for performance. ???

Here's another thought -- how about recording yourself dancing the choreography, and then putting that in a video format, giving the student the video (or a link to the video), and saying "practice to the video." ???

I'm sure legally these are both probably verboten, but how about ethically?

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

I make sure to use, in any class choreography, music that is uncut and performed for the whole piece. That way, students can download or buy the music. Yes, it limits my choices, but it's ethically the right thing to do.

I feel irrational guilt when people ask me to burn a copy of mine for them and I refuse. It seems sort of mean. Like, 'yes I've got one, but I'm not sharing it's mine, mine, mine!'. I realise this is irrational, so I keep refusing :-)

Once my teacher used music that was cut in a few places. She just told us which cd the music was on and then gave us the times where she had made the cuts. I had already purchased the cd so I just went home and followed her instructions. Maybe that could be an option when people ask.

Originally Posted by toria_dances

All you are going off are rumors, I'd drop it. You could be wrong. Plus you said the CD were given out as part of the fee, right? So how do you know she is not spending the money buying the clips off I-tunes and burning the CD for the students? Using each ones tuition each time? I think many people get up in arms over a rumor to soon and can destroy someone reputation, even if later on you find out it was fabricated. I'm surprise at how may people entertain there students gossip. Whats unethical to me is that you are discussing another teacher habits with your student/s, and not telling your student to stop spreading rumors

When you purchase a song on Itunes or anywhere else you are getting it for your personal use...that download fee does NOT give you the right to reproduce and distribute no matter if you are charging for those CDs or giving them away as included with a class fee.

~~Kimahri

Originally Posted by Kimahri

When you purchase a song on Itunes or anywhere else you are getting it for your personal use...that download fee does NOT give you the right to reproduce and distribute no matter if you are charging for those CDs or giving them away as included with a class fee.

~~Kimahri

so if my mom whats me to download some music for her from itunes she can't give me the money and I download if for her?

Originally Posted by toria_dances

so if my mom whats me to download some music for her from itunes she can't give me the money and I download if for her?

As long as you don't also keep the music, then yeah, that's cool. Before, were you trying to say that the instructor could simply purchase a copy for each of her students? So if I had 10 students, I'd buy the track 10 times? That makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

As long as you don't also keep the music, then yeah, that's cool. Before, were you trying to say that the instructor could simply purchase a copy for each of her students? So if I had 10 students, I'd buy the track 10 times? That makes sense to me.

yeah thats what I was saying since she made them pay for it, she just brought it 10 times and bruned it for her students.

Once my teacher used music that was cut in a few places. She just told us which cd the music was on and then gave us the times where she had made the cuts. I had already purchased the cd so I just went home and followed her instructions. Maybe that could be an option when people ask.

That is definitly a good idea for some simpler cuts, Etoile.

Not for me, alas. When I say recut I mean recut. Some of our choreographies are totally reworked, it would be impossible to do it like that.

I am an author myself, so the rights of an artist to be identified with their work and paid for it are very important to me. Alas, I don't think there is much else I can do. My girls own the originals anyway, and the quality of the copies is reduced. Best I can make of a bad situation.

Originally Posted by LeylaFahada

As long as you don't also keep the music, then yeah, that's cool. Before, were you trying to say that the instructor could simply purchase a copy for each of her students? So if I had 10 students, I'd buy the track 10 times? That makes sense to me.

I don't know if it's just my version of iTunes, but if I try to "buy" a song a second time, it tells me that the song has been previously purchased and won't let me buy it again. That's actually saved me from rebuying stuff I'd forgotten about a couple of times.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I'm so evil though -- I love gossip. Isn't that one of the seven deadly sins or something? Argh.

Perhaps it's one of the seven deadly sins because in the end (at least in my experience) the one the gossip hurts is the gossiper herself, not the subject of the rumor.

Easier said than done, but when we start to accept our own journeys as personal, and others' journeys as personal to them, then it becomes less about competition, jealousy, rumors, turf wars, and more about pouring your soul into expressing the art of music and channeling the joy you feel in the rhythms you experience.

It's never fun to see someone being unethical. Be careful, though. We are all guilty of behaviors that could appear questionable to others, and I would guess that few if any of us live totally spotless and shameless lives, so unless you're willing to have your own ghosts released from the closet, I'd step back and let fate run its course.