Thread: Free VS paid instruction within expertise?

There is something that has been on my mind for quite some time in regard to us instructors here on Bhuz (and other online forums) and giving in-depth professional advice.

We all want the knowledge of dance to grow. We show this through being generous with our information when someone inquires. Along with the growth of available information in general through publications and instructional DVDs we also are seeing the international exchange of information through virtual medias increase through websites and online forums etc.

Question: Where does the line between assisting someone on their way and giving free professional advice go?

Each one of us have spent unmeasurable resources on gaining the knowledge we have and continue to do so. Many have also spent time and effort on developing the knowledge base and speciality materials not commonly made available by most instructors. Or, have gained recognition for their extraordinary abilities as instructors over the years and "just have that eye" and ability for teaching.

Lately there have been several threads on Bhuz - and probably elsewhere as well - that specifically request free information on specialty subjects, or free services that are commonly paid for in the dance scene.

We are good at talking about undercutting as performers, but what about undercutting as instructors?

I am all for the free flow of general information and exchange of thoughts, but specific services and specialty information that professionals have spent years on developing and attaining the knowledge to be able to develop should be material we have to pay for, I think.

I am specifically thinking of single posters blatantly requesting in-depth analysis of performances, techniques or stylizations - even in-depth business and conduct advice - not even bothering camouflaging their inquiry as a discussion or request for exchange of information. IMHO, this is material that requires compensation above and beyond "fame and glory" for the instructors.

Yes, instructors can just refrain from replying. However, when speaking of professionalism: what kind of professional integrity are dancers displaying through asking for instructors' specialty services for free?

Thoughts?

Edited to add: the sharing of knowledge is what moves and motivates us to continue our journey throught the dance - be it general or in-depth. I'm sure we're all happy to share - especially since we build longstanding relationships with each other on sites such as Bhuz and genuinely want to help each other out as much as we can, but one of the concerns online is the unlimited public access to everything available online.

As long as one does not feel like they are being pressured or obligated to offer their (othererwise paid) services for free, communication should not be disected as to what is and is not worth money.

If you are offering a service that may help someone requesting information you can direct people to your business by giving away nuggets that may persuade them to persue your opinion further.

I have seen people post videos, looking for critique, and others post questions on specific topics, but I have yet to see anyone demand that they be answered by just one person. Rather they are casting a wide net, and hoping to catch some fish along with the seaweed.

I like to think of it this way, would anyone possesing great knowledge or skill be where they are without others casting out pearls to lead them on the right path?

I find myself in an interesting situation, because of my day job, many dancer friends and colleagues, ask financial advice and tax help from me. I'm always polite in my answers but I can only answer questions in the broadest of terms and often I direct them to self serve websites. It's not that I don't want to help, I legally can't.

Ultimately, I find that something like this is best left on a case by case basis. Not that opening a discussion is wrong, but if "rules" were implemented about the sharing of knowledge think about the resources out there that would run dry.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

As long as one does not feel like they are being pressured or obligated to offer their (othererwise paid) services for free, communication should not be disected as to what is and is not worth money.

If you are offering a service that may help someone requesting information you can direct people to your business by giving away nuggets that may persuade them to persue your opinion further.

I have seen people post videos, looking for critique, and others post questions on specific topics, but I have yet to see anyone demand that they be answered by just one person. Rather they are casting a wide net, and hoping to catch some fish along with the seaweed.

I like to think of it this way, would anyone possesing great knowledge or skill be where they are without others casting out pearls to lead them on the right path?

I find myself in an interesting situation, because of my day job, many dancer friends and colleagues, ask financial advice and tax help from me. I'm always polite in my answers but I can only answer questions in the broadest of terms and often I direct them to self serve websites. It's not that I don't want to help, I legally can't.

Ultimately, I find that something like this is best left on a case by case basis. Not that opening a discussion is wrong, but if "rules" were implemented about the sharing of knowledge think about the resources out there that would run dry.

I agree with your observations and thoughts. I wasn't really looking to set any rules, just thought I'd open a discussion around the subject to see what other peoples' thoughts were on this issue.

I pretty much refrain from answering - or offer my services - when I consider it to be a question to require anything past the broadest terms. OK, thats not true. I will narrow the range of the information to where it remains beneficial and specific to the question - but not inflict upon the professional integrity of a service offered.

Keep'em coming, I'm curious to hear what peoples' thoughts on this :)

I also think it's beneficial for people to continue to ask questions. If they were not out there asking how would those who possess the requested knowledge know that there was market for their services.

I look at Malaya Leff, a few years ago people may have known about it and may have performed it, but since the recent boom in the demand for training and performances, those who can teach/perform/costume those who want to Malaya have found their services more in demand.

I also think it's important to remember the symbiosis of a teacher student relationship. Yes the student benefits from the knowledge, but the teacher benefits from the experience. Teaching, lecturing, and demonstrating are all skills that need just as much practice as dancing, learning and developing.

I have a friend who used to train the most brilliant and amazing dancers. Then 20 years ago she dropped off the scene almost completely. She wants to start teaching again but is not sure she is ready or able to handle the dance climate as it is much different now. To prepare herself mentally and physically, she has been teaching me (or privately coaching) for free. I benefit by absorbing the amazing information she beats into me, and she benefits by tweaking her teaching styles and tapping into her knowledge base.
I would never demand that she continue to teach me for for free, but as long as she's offering I'll be there to learn.

as a student, i really appreciate when bhuzzers (both teachers and students) mention workshops, classes, resources that are out there. recently, i'm very interested in american am-cab-restaurant style. so i read all the threads i could find on the subject. then when cory zamora came to my area, i paid money to take her workshop. all of the information i had read could never replace live instruction, and i think most dancers would agree with me.

also, i think when people ask questions, even very specific ones, they are looking for any response and weighing the value of those responses on who the poster is. so, if i post a video and ask for critique, i'll certainly value the opinions of fellow students, but not as much as yours. when you mentioned on another thread that you acutally do this for a fee, i had no idea! that's a great service, and i don't see any reason why instructors shouldn't mention classes/workshops/services they provide in those threads.

These are great observations, guys :) Feel free to share more of your thoughts on this. Its a complex subject and I'm sure its a beneficial discussion to many.

I think with the bhuz video critiques, one thing that makes it different for me is that a paid instructor will not only critique you, but also help you to correct the things that need improvement. For most of us, even if someone throws out out a suggestion about "keeping the energy in the arms through the fingertips", or "it would have been better if you had acknowledged the khaleegy rhythm at 2:05", it's not in any way as effective as having an instructor go over things one on one with you privately.

The funny thing is, I almost posted my recent shabbi performance here to get feedback from bhuzzers who are particularly knowledgeable in the style. But I held off because it occurred to me that a couple of the people I was hoping to hear from are ordinarily paid for that sort of thing (yes, including you, David!), and I didn't want to overstep my bounds.

Another issue is that many people here don't have access IRL to quality teachers or the variety of pool of knowledge found here.

You will notice, I am sure, that a lot of the dancers who were here frequently a few years ago who are now making and marketing videos are no longer as frequently on line? Many lurk and take suggestions for the topic of their next video / workshop/ what ever from the current convos, but don't participate. Some of this is simply a shift in priorities, and some is good business sense.

{{{HUGS}}}

The people who respond to questions here are mostly at the level of local instructor or regional workshop teacher. We are 'paying it forward' out of gratitude to those who advised and informed us here and on MED-Dance when we were noobs. (at least that's my story)

As a dancer reaches the rank of 'expert' they typically fade away from the board. This usually happens gradually. There's a point where posting on boards helps people to know you exist and what your areas of expertise are. But once you achieve a certain level of success, the risks outweigh the benefits.

They do it partly because they're very busy, but I think it's mostly because when you post here, there's risk. You risk pissing people off just because they misunderstood you. You risk making a statement and being proven wrong. You risk alienating your base. My base for next year is local women who probably haven't even thought about bellydance yet. When you reach the point where your base is professional dancers and teachers and the kind of obsessed hobbyists who hang out on Bhuz, it's time to start withdrawing.

Us middle-echelon types will answer questions to the best of our ability -- and many, many times our advice will include a referral to a DVD or book. That's where the experts come in. Occasionally they may drop by to respond to a thread that's giving out misinformation on their topic, or they buy ads to promote their materials, trips, services, etc.

Sorry, David, it's lonely at the top.

Meanwhile, those of us who *aren't* quite at the point of being experts feel pretty free to share our opinions. Having been a professional graphic artist, I don't offer to do free photoshop projects or offer detailed critiques of marketing materials on Bhuz. (largely because the idea bores me to tears after doing it for a living for so long, but also because I like to be paid for my expertise in that area.) But I don't feel like laypeople sharing their opinions, experiences and advice takes anything away from the pros.

As a writer, I sometimes have issues with the fact that for-profit magazines and publications in this industry expect people to write for free, but... I guess it's promotion for the writers, usually, getting their name out there. In fact, that's probably the next step after a teacher 'graduates' out of these boards -- publishing articles in online and print magazines to share their info AND peddle their products.

Write something intriguing and we'll talk about it here on the boards, giving you free publicity!!

summary: I don't think it's undercutting for laypeople to discuss and share their opinions, personal experiences, and limited knowledge for free. In the case of emerging experts, it's a barter or pay-it-forward situation, not a freebie.

babble babble babble babble babble babble

Some thoughts: After years here on Bhuz, I've decided I'm a bit of an expert on a few narrow topics.

I'm writing a book on one of those topics, and when it's finished I probably will refer people to the book in shameless acts of self-promotion rather than quoting it at length online. I'll still chat about other topics freely, though, so maybe people will forgive me.

I'm also working on a website where I'm putting articles on the topics I find myself describing most on Bhuz. I started doing that just because some topics come up over and over and I got tired of repeating myself. I thought 'I'll write this once, then I'll link to it!!" Much later it occured to me that I could 'monetize' that site with Google ads and Amazon links, so I'm experimenting with that a bit. This is what writers do. We write a piece and then try to either sell it once or get extended small royalty payments. I don't feel a tiny bit guilty about that, and i think it might be a good model for the internet right now.

No one is forcing experts to participate in discussions. This isn't like cornering a doctor at a cocktail party, where politeness demands some minimal acknowledgement of the question. Lurking is anonymous, and experts are always free to ignore and not comment in threads. I can understand why experts try not to get dragged into online conversations, and not just because they could be getting paid for their expertise. If they answered every question they knew, they would never have time to do anything else. Those of us who remember the old MEDlist, also remember the hours Rocky and others put into trying to help students for no compensation other than knowing that they thwarted a little ignorance. Anyone who begrudges them the freedom of not being slaves to the Internet is being unreasonable. I certainly don't object when someone answers a question by saying, "That's just too involved to explain here. You should take a workshop...."

OTOH, many students do not have access to good teaching outside of the Internet. Perhaps they have access to a teacher who is competent for beginners, but not trained for more advanced material. Maybe their local teacher does not teach the style they want to learn. Perhaps they are seeking a consensus from the larger dance community after having heard conflicting statements from different teachers. There are huge areas of the US that are not a regular stop on the workshop circuit. Shouldn't those students have a resource for getting some of the information they seek? Obviously, students should take what they read online with a grain of salt. Words do not always capture the information necessary to describe something as complex and dynamic as movement to music, and it is very easy to misunderstand/misinterpret what is being written. One also assumes that even naive students know to approach online dance sites with the same skepticism that should be applied to the rest of the Internet. All you need to call yourself "an expert" is nerve, and it is possible to build a reputation out of bits and bytes that cannot sustain itself in the real world.

Having said that, I can see the validity to criticizing dancers who ask others to perform research or services for them when they could be doing the work themselves. It is one thing when the task is not easily doable, but if it involves a simple Internet search, then it isn't reasonable.

Perhaps all of this information shouldn't be free, but how would you propose to charge for it? I suppose you could ask for a membership fee, which would give you access to whatever experts were also in the organization, much like you could join a professional society and seek out whomever you wanted to talk to at the annual conference. I think as the field of distance learning evolves, we may see even more dancers offering online courses, including interactive videoconferenced classes, and those would be compensated teaching situations, but we're not quite there yet.

Originally Posted by laura 2

But I held off because it occurred to me that a couple of the people I was hoping to hear from are ordinarily paid for that sort of thing (yes, including you, David!), and I didn't want to overstep my bounds.

My opinion -- i don't see anything wrong with putting a clip out and inviting critique. No individual should feel pressured to respond, and unlike a private lesson you're not guaranteed of getting anything in-depth, or even anything at all from the people you'd most like to hear from. Sometimes you'll get a bunch of beginning students saying 'wow, that looks great.'

IF you've given of yourself a lot in the past and offered a lot of your time and expertise to other experienced dancers, they'll respond in kind. So it's not free, it's a barter. You critiqued me, I'll critique you. If you only ask and never offer, tumbleweeds will start blowing through your threads eventually.

I think it would be very pushy to request critique from a particular person, though. That would put them on the spot. A general request is completely different.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Those of us who remember the old MEDlist, also remember the hours Rocky and others put into trying to help students for no compensation other than knowing that they thwarted a little ignorance.

If it weren't for MEDlist, I never would have HEARD of Rocky. Wouldn't have gone to her workshop, either.

Same goes for Bhuz and: Aradia, Bahaia, Aziza, Jim Boz, Kimahri, Michelle Joyce...none of whom post here very much these days.

p.s. On a message board, even if someone calls you by name and asks you a specific question, no one notices or thinks you're rude if you just don't respond.

They usually assume you got busy, wandered off, and didn't open that thread again.

I don't have the time to read/post much here lately, so I've missed the blatant threads asking for specific advice that could be paid for.

However, I feel that there is no replacement for a real live teacher. I've read some threads on here that go into eye-watering detail on technique (e.g., the Randa shimmy thread,currently re-reading it which is why it occurred to me) that have completely bamboozled me, yet I know if someone had demonstrated to me what they were talking about I might well have had a lightbulb moment. So, in that way the provision of expert information is useless to me because I can't make sense of it written down, and I'm sure there are others like me out there!

Like others, I would say that there's nothing to stop people asking these sorts of questions, and that you're (generic you, no one person in particular) under no obligation to provide answers if you feel it compromises you commercially. Like Lauren, I see Bhuz and other sites as a kind of information-barter place (and I for one owe a lot back to the barter situation!).

Originally Posted by Lauren_

My opinion -- i don't see anything wrong with putting a clip out and inviting critique. No individual should feel pressured to respond, and unlike a private lesson you're not guaranteed of getting anything in-depth, or even anything at all from the people you'd most like to hear from. Sometimes you'll get a bunch of beginning students saying 'wow, that looks great.'

You're spot on, Lauren. I asked myself what I was wanting to get out of posting the clip, and after some navel gazing I realized that there were specific bhuzzers I wanted to get responses from - even though I would never call them out by name. I was really wanting feedback from certain posters whom I have observed from previous posts really know their sh*t when it comes to that particular style. It seemed disingenuous of me to post it saying I wanted feedback from anyone and everyone, when it was really only a select few I really wanted to hear from.

BTW, I'm not saying that I'm so la-dee-dah that only experts are worthy of critiquing me - far from it! For this particular choreography though, I just wanted to focus on commentary that was specific to shabbi style, as opposed to my overall dance technique. I've been lucky enough to get coaching from my own teacher on the style, so if I want more of that it's only right that I should have to pay for it like I do with her.

Hmm... was this directed towards my post about the tribal/cab diffs?

Anyway, I frequent more than one "special topic" message board, and the amount of information shared on those boards is staggering. The thing is, people who know something and LOVE that something usually love talking about it. It's nice to meet people like that, and I tend to go to their classes or workshops just to hear them talk, even if they're saying the same things I've already heard them say online.

Who WOULDN'T pay to sit down with Morocco just to hear HER tell the stories she's shared with us over the years. Heck, I'd pay just to hear her tell the "puss-cat" story again :)

Aradia is another great example -- she's a Bhuzzer who also teaches workshops, but she has tantalized me in so many posts by sharing information about some obscure subject that I wouldn't hesitate to sign up for a workshop with her -- even if it was for beginners. And if she ever makes another DVD, I'll be one of the first to buy it.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Hmm... was this directed towards my post about the tribal/cab diffs?

Eh? nope, it was not at all directed at your post, Aziyade.

interesting thread... got the wheels turning
david, even if "experts" give away info that maybe should not be free, i think it does more good than harm in the long run
it exposes people to more information and to more teachers; gives bellydancers more publicity forums are great in that way
and like many have mentioned a message board explanation of something does not equal live advice or instruction
it actually leaves you wanting live advice or instruction which is a good thing

Originally Posted by laura 2

The funny thing is, I almost posted my recent shabbi performance here to get feedback from bhuzzers who are particularly knowledgeable in the style. But I held off because it occurred to me that a couple of the people I was hoping to hear from are ordinarily paid for that sort of thing (yes, including you, David!), and I didn't want to overstep my bounds.

Oh that's such a shame. Post it ! Post it ! You're not obligating anyone to reply ...

I would only have a problem if there was a fully qualified teacher readily available and someone opted to post to an open board as a preference.

That is, I do a fair amount of 'coaching'. That's what I call it; it's my favorite of my teaching jobs. I'm in a rural state and there are folk that are a little far out for weekly trips but sometimes when preparing for a performance one will come to me and get my input. I charge fairly and feel it's a valuable service. It's not something I can 'regulate', but choosing an online forum instead of a local expert is-I can't find the right word. Cheap? Insulting?

I don't have very much patience with people who ask questions on bhuz yet it is clear that they are not taking classes, attending workshops, or otherwise taking advantage of local and regional expertise.

I will offer a little help and hope that it becomes clear that this dance form requires formal training to perform at an artistic level.

I also have little patience anymore to try and explain in written form movements like 3/4 shimmies, jewels, and other complex movements. These threads come up with predictable regularity and I just don't have the energy anymore to offer anything. In the past I have spent hours composing explanations of such but those days are past.

Hey everyone.

These are great reflections on the subject. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with everyone and giving us all something to think about :)

Lauren - it probably is lonely at the top. Thank God we have each other here on Bhuz.

I would like to point out that my posting this thread was in regard to more in-depth analysis of material, not the typical posts we make here on Bhuz. The exchange of information and bartering of information is not what I was referring to. Just so nobody thinks I'm being all up in gear about even general questions - which is absolutely not the case. Ssipes kind of put what I was thinking of into words more specifically than I did.

I think most of us are effective at linking to information, articles, websites etc. I post articles on our academy website to make the general information more accessible to the public, as do many others.

Lauren - it probably is lonely at the top. Thank God, I dont have to worry about that and that we have each other here on Bhuz.

Cheers!

When I see an in-depth post on Bhuz, such as DaVid describes, it inspires me to want to check out the poster's website, seek out any workshops or DVDs, etc.

These posts also give the reader an accurate glimpse into who the poster really is and what he or she has to offer- sometimes, in the case of those whose names are well-known, dispelling preconceived notions from sometimes negative scuttlebutt they may have heard from others in the dance community (not that this happens often, LOL!!!).

Would an instructional DVD by DaVid advertised on Bhuz (for example) be more likely to be scooped up now that he has taken time to answer so many technical questions and reveal much-researched knowledge in detail, or if he had merely provided "teaser" responses citing scant basics and referencing, for example, "for more info, please buy . . ." designed to "whet" the appetite of dancers seeking to improve their skills?

Without question, I vote that his detailed input elevates him in the minds of other reader/dancers and would most likely lead to increased sales of DVDs and increased attendance at workshops, seminars, etc.

In other words, the "buzz" generated on Bhuz is worth $$$$. I vote to keep it up and not be afraid you are giving something away for free that may or may not (???) have otherwise have generated $!

-Devora

P.S. I am extremely impressed with how generous the instructors on Bhuz have been in supporting the newbies and other students on the relatively new "Student Center" forum. This is pure mentorship and fellowship, so supportive - a joy to see (and learn from!).

I personally feel the sharing of professional knowledge paves the way for greater heights of professionalism-for the hobbyist dancer, aspiring professional, and the teacher. It seems to me that many who have danced for decades, and have a wealth of information on many subjects, only have a few select people to really share this with.

Let's pretend there are 100 levels of belly dance knowledge-with each information level being slightly more complex than the previous one. The greatest teachers on the planet are at about 90, (cause we all have room for improvement!) Your average beginner student ranges somewhere in the 1-6 range (because no one is a total 0!) During their dance career, most students will peak somewhere at knowledge level 20-50 (depending on teaching, interest, outside life, etc) except for the very few who strive to someday be a 90.
When teaching anything, you need to teach both to your students, and to their ability level. So while a person might have an 85 knowledge level, you can't really share the "big number" information with a level 2 student-it would be too over their heads. This includes both physical and mental knowledge. Just as you wouldn't want to teach back bends in a beginning level class, you also would not try to teach marketing strategies-the group is not ready.
I feel that Bhuz is helping dancers by providing a higher level of knowledge that we are ready for. The subjects I want to know more about, I can find without taking anyone's time who is not freely offering it. Really, did my intro level teachers have time to point out to me, (in a class of 20) the best places to find translation to music, which brands of undies would no leave lines under my costumes, or give me instructional reviews of DVDs? Absolutely not-but by finding these things out on Bhuz, I was able to leave class at a Level 7 and come back a level 10 the next week. This enabled me to better comprehend my teachers teachings and allowed them the chance to present a richer body of information to me.
Dance critiques posted here are great for all of us, in my opinion. But listening to other people being critiqued, a dancer is more likely to know what to work on themselves. This in turn raises the level of professionalism during student shows and the perception of the dance by at least some members of the public.
So thanks Bhuz, and everyone who posts here-I honestly don't know where I would be without having had this site.
Probably an undercutting 6 month wonder with bad music and ill fitting costumes!
Nikki

Hmmm...I think it's up to each expert how much they want to share, but I will say that if you seem to know your stuff on Bhuz, not only will I be more willing to buy your merchandise or services if I ended up in your area, but I also feel some buy-in as if I know you.

Like, I don't KNOW Michelle Joyce, but because she's on Bhuz and posts here, I feel connected to her, want her to succeed, and I buy almost all of her videos. It sounds creepy when you put it that way but I'm sure there's a lot of people who feel that way.

Or Ranya Renee. She has posted some great stuff on here about baladi, but that doesn't mean I don't want her video. Of course I had her video before she posted here but basically I will buy ANYTHING this lady puts out because she's just so damn smart...and she's down to earth too on bhuz, so again, I want to see her succeed.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Hmmm...I think it's up to each expert how much they want to share, but I will say that if you seem to know your stuff on Bhuz, not only will I be more willing to buy your merchandise or services if I ended up in your area, but I also feel some buy-in as if I know you.

Like, I don't KNOW Michelle Joyce, but because she's on Bhuz and posts here, I feel connected to her, want her to succeed, and I buy almost all of her videos. It sounds creepy when you put it that way but I'm sure there's a lot of people who feel that way.

Or Ranya Renee. She has posted some great stuff on here about baladi, but that doesn't mean I don't want her video. Of course I had her video before she posted here but basically I will buy ANYTHING this lady puts out because she's just so damn smart...and she's down to earth too on bhuz, so again, I want to see her succeed.

ya she said it
i totally agree!!!
like only because of bhuz, if I'm ever on the west coast, i am totally seeking out david for a lesson and before bhuz i wouldnt dream of going to a guy for instruction
i guess it seems kind of weird but it's true
..l;,

There is a difference between knowledge and skills. Most of what is out there on the internet is transfer of knowledge; where to buy things, historical information, translations, going rates. Only a small number of post really deal with skills, and I think that is what this topic is about; people breaking down movements and telling others how to execute them. I'm more of a visual/physical learner so descriptions of movements arent going to do much for me. But I can see how it can teach another person something that she may otherwise have paid for to learn. (The same goes for knowledge to some extent, but there is a smaller group of people who would attend bellydance lectures than those who would attend classes.)

Every technology causes great societal changes and, for a while, threatens the livelihood of someone. Before the record player was invented, most bars hired musicians and many more singers could earn a living. Not so today, but we can hear great singers from nearly a century ago and immortalize them as we enjoy them. Also, an older artist may no longer be able or willing to perform in bars, nowadays he can still sell records and otherwise profit from the fame that technology helped make lasting.

I actually wouldn't have heard (and bought) stuff from a bunch of people had I not joined Bhuz.

In terms of asking for excessive help- I don't know where "the line" is.

Great and very valid points, guys. I do believe Bhuz opens alot of new avenues for us all. :)