Thread: Upper body stability and the noob

I have been watching Virginia's One on One vid to see if it would be appropriate to recommend my noobie students to purchase it. The info is very good, as well as clear, but her upper body is very "loose" if you will. She swings her weight in hip drops and her hip circles allow her head and chest to rotate- just to name a few. She is a beautiful dancer...but I encourage my student to work on isolating the movements that are being drilled and not allowing the movements to travel up the body. Of course as beginners, they find that difficult...but at least they know where we are headed. Am I being to hard on them? Wont these habits be harder to break once they are ingrained..or is it more important to get the "feel" of the move in the body without worrying overmuch about the isolation. I do tell them that dancing is much freer than drilling, and that the drills are designed to build clarity and muscle memory. What say you all?

They will be MUCH harder to break. It happened to me. Drill drill drill isolation. It's so important. I feel like I had to go way back and re-spend so much time on correcting movements when I wanted to be ready to feel the music and move on my own. You are not being too hard (coming from someone who wishes her first year of learning had been as dedicated as her others). And what made the other years of learning so important? The focus on isolation, technique, and drilling of them constantly! If your students feel like they are "looser" dancers they will discover that on their own once they have the proper technique under their belts.

I think it's important to drill isolations early on. While strict isolations are generally not used when actually dancing, they are a part of the training that's needed for many bodies to understand the musculature behind the movements -- most of us didn't grow up balancing dozens of pounds worth of stuff on our heads. :)

IMO it's better to learn to add some bounce/juice/flow/reverb as you go than to not have the core movement right and risk injury.

Edited to add this clip so others can ponder her hip drops:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3Yrcv6OFBA&feature=related"]YouTube - Bellydance One-on-One: Choreography With Virginia[/ame]

I love to watch Virginia dance, but I don't know that she's a prime example of Egyptian style (I had this same conversation in Egypt --she taught at Nile Group this time). She definitely brings some other flavors to her tasty dish.

[...edited again to say I know Egyptian is not The Only way, but it's Anala's focus also, and more than likely what she's trying to pass on to her students. ]

Based on the video snippet that Nasila posted, I don't see anything wrong with Virginia's hip drop issolations. Of course your upper body is going to move slightly - that can't really be helped.

Originally Posted by anala

..but I encourage my student to work on isolating the movements that are being drilled and not allowing the movements to travel up the body. Of course as beginners, they find that difficult...but at least they know where we are headed. Am I being to hard on them? Wont these habits be harder to break once they are ingrained..or is it more important to get the "feel" of the move in the body without worrying overmuch about the isolation. I do tell them that dancing is much freer than drilling, and that the drills are designed to build clarity and muscle memory. What say you all?

I totally agree with you, this is my approach as well. Isolations are named thus because the move is isolated. I don't allow my students any bounce in their hip drops. At all. Upper body does not move.

Have to add...upon reviewing that clip, I notice her hips going when she does the shoulder shimmy right at the end. This bothers me....but, I haven't seen the whole video so maybe this was intentional. Virgina looks like a gorgeous wonderful dancer though, perhaps this is just her style?

I adore Virginia -- but didn't anyone else notice at about :25 that her BUTT EXPLODES!!! Seriously, that seems to me like a bigger deal than a little bouncing in her hip drops. Sheesh.



Yes, I teach them isolated. For beledi or saidi I think it's fine for the hips to twist or the body to bounce a little (even that opposite arm moving, like it is on Virginia, can just have a little Fifi wrist flick added on, looks great with a folksy style).

But for Sharqi, and especially for percussive dancing i.e. drum solos I teach it as a hip snap down coming from the opposite glute and inner thigh and I want to see isolation.

If you learn to isolate it, you can later *choose* to do it big & loose & folksy to suit your music. But if you never learn how to isolate it, then you don't have choices. I'm all about having lots of choices in my dance.

Being in control of your instrument as a dancer means only the parts you intended to move are moving.

Different kind of hip drop. I learned, and taught, them with the movement largely generated in the adductors, which means *no* bounce is possible if you're doing them properly, unless you are adding a level change on purpose. But that one is more of a beledi type of drop to me, which is not nearly as isolated.

I'm an isolationist and proud of it!

Dancing is different from drilling, and before you can "dance" in the sense of dancing for others, you've got to know the moves; and to learn the moves, you have to know how to create them in isolation, otherwise you end up with a gloppy mess!

I tell my beginning students that first we learn to isolate, then we put the body parts back together again. I do not allow any bouncing of any kind in any movement at the beginner level; in this way I know that students understand and can execute the mechanics of the movements. But I also let them know that there are some movements where a bit of a bounce is fun, but they only get to bounce when they know that they're bouncing; at the beginning, they don't usually realize what the other parts are doing while that hip is dropping, of course . . . it's called "beginning belly dance" for a reason!

Deborah

Ok Lauren...I looked for an exploding butt 10 times...and I have come to the conclusion that you were refering to the video transition!!!LOL!

I think this would be a clip to explain the difference between a hip drop caused by pressing the foot down into the floor and making the leg do the drop (I think what is happening here) vs. the kind of isolation that you can create by using strictly muscle power.
I feel that many beginner students do not have the muscle power yet to create that isolation, so they use they leg to help the drop happen, which is understandable. But I don't know how many beginner students actually have anyone tell them why they can't isolate yet, and to try using the muscles, but to expect that it will take time for the muscles to become stronger. I think explaining this way helps students understand that the isolation goal they are working towards is a "strength and fitness" goal, not just an "ability to dance" goal.
Nikki

Originally Posted by anala

Ok Lauren...I looked for an exploding butt 10 times...and I have come to the conclusion that you were refering to the video transition!!!LOL!

It just....suddenly opened up and swallowed my whole head!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It just....suddenly opened up and swallowed my whole head!

Snork!..g.:

The clips you show are from her choreography Dvd. I've just been learning that and she breaks it down very well, but I would have thought that it is a bit complicated for beginners.
On her previous video, One-on-One Essential Technique, she does stress that the hip drop is caused by the action of the side muscles. Her rib cage still tilts, but I think that is because she is exaggerating the action of the obliques.

What are some ways you relay to students the carriage of the upper body while doing hip movments?

I usually say, lift up in the chest, press your shoulder blades down and into your rib cage, pretend you have to win the big boobie contest and you're the smallest bust in the room...anything else?

KS

Virginia is allowing the movement to flow into her upper body in a coordinated way.

To me, this is VERY different kind of "bouncing" from what you see in a beginner dancer who doesn't yet have pelvic stability.

As far as the hip drop islolation...I ask them to tighten the standing glute as the unweighted hip goes down in order to block the momentum from transfering into the nonworking hip. I also ask that they firm up the upper abdominals so the hip lift doesnt transfer into the ribcage as the hip is lifted by the (whatever that muscle group that is that lifts the hip). I dont expect them to "do it" but I hope they "get it". So I gather that it is not a bad thing to at least tell students to try for.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Virginia is allowing the movement to flow into her upper body in a coordinated way.

To me, this is VERY different kind of "bouncing" from what you see in a beginner dancer who doesn't yet have pelvic stability.

Agreed. I don't think anyone meant to imply that Virginia has poor technique or dances like a beginner.

The question is whether we teach/demo this kind of movement to our beginners, or whether we ask them to learn to do the movements in an isolated way first and add in the option of a more flowing movement later, when they're able to do it in a coordinated way.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It just....suddenly opened up and swallowed my whole head!

Bwahahahahaha! ..l;,

Originally Posted by s1dur1_sab1tu

What are some ways you relay to students the carriage of the upper body while doing hip movments?

I usually say, lift up in the chest, press your shoulder blades down and into your rib cage, pretend you have to win the big boobie contest and you're the smallest bust in the room...anything else?

KS

• Lift the ribcage up and *forward* from the back
• Keep the standing leg soft
• don't raise the hip hgh before dropping it
• focus on the contraction in the glute/inner thigh of the standing leg
• prctice the movement standing on one leg (ok to use the wall for balance if you need it)
• Drape the coin scarf around your shoulders so you can *hear* when the movement isn't isolated

Right when I got the brilliant idea to have my level 4 students start working on isolation by draping their coin scarves over their shoulders while drilling hipwork and trying to keep them silent, .p:: they all -- en masse -- switched to quiet hipscarves and stopped bringing noisy ones to class.

Coincidence? Hmmmmm.... ,r:;

Originally Posted by anala

As far as the hip drop islolation...I ask them to tighten the standing glute as the unweighted hip goes down in order to block the momentum from transfering into the nonworking hip. I also ask that they firm up the upper abdominals so the hip lift doesnt transfer into the ribcage as the hip is lifted by the (whatever that muscle group that is that lifts the hip). I dont expect them to "do it" but I hope they "get it". So I gather that it is not a bad thing to at least tell students to try for.

I agree, Anala. If she was doing this in my beginner class, I would correct her (just watching her hurts my knees). Maybe I'm anal too.

Again, I adore Virginia's dancing and obviously she's skilled enough to add some serious juice, but this is not a hip drop example that I would want my noobiest noobs to emulate.

Thanks guys, I will tell them it is a great resource but to keep in mind that she may be loosening up her movements to make the movements more accesible to the beginner. In which case there will be much to tighten up as they advance. I was using this DVD as an example, and then started to worry that I was asking the impossible from my starter students. I was wondering if any of you started them out loose, and then tighten things up in the intermediate phase. I finally feel qualified to teach intermediate, but certainly not advanced - yet. ;-)

Originally Posted by Lauren_

[*]focus on the contraction in the glute/inner thigh of the standing leg

Ow! I just tried that and it my knee wasn't happy . . . the fact that I've not used a contraction in the standing leg/glute to create the drop might account for that, however! ..c::

So, Lauren, are you using the standing leg/glute to create the drop (say on the left) or are you using the muscles on the right to push the hip down?

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Ow! I just tried that and it my knee wasn't happy . . . the fact that I've not used a contraction in the standing leg/glute to create the drop might account for that, however! ..c::

So, Lauren, are you using the standing leg/glute to create the drop (say on the left) or are you using the muscles on the right to push the hip down?

Deborah

When I do them percussively, like in a drum solo, then yes, I'm using the standing leg/glute to create the drop.

When I do them more folklore-ish, I use the waist muscles and lower abs and get sort of a twisty motion.

Sometimes I use the side waist to push push push with a bit of undulation, but that's very stylized and almost a completely different movement.

I just went to youtube to find examples of what I'm talking about. Holy crap what a mess. I found nearly a dozen variations on teaching the move, not ONE of them is "right" to me.

I learned the snappy variation from -- I think -- Hadia.

wanna make sure we are talking the same...forgive me if I presume in error...the standing leg is the non working (except for the squeeze)supporting leg...not the side that is doing the actual move.

Originally Posted by anala

wanna make sure we are talking the same...forgive me if I presume in error...the standing leg is the non working (except for the squeeze)supporting leg...not the side that is doing the actual move.

Yes. In my 'crisp' variation, you keep that knee nice and soft and snap the working hip from neutral to down by contracting the glute and inner thigh on the standing/supporting leg. (as opposed to the variations where you pull the hip up toward the ribcage first and then lower it to neutral).

I've never had any knee issues with it. i keep that knee very soft, it does move back but doesn't lock.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

When I do them percussively, like in a drum solo, then yes, I'm using the standing leg/glute to create the drop.

When I do them more folklore-ish, I use the waist muscles and lower abs and get sort of a twisty motion.

Gotcha. For me to make it percussive, I still use the waist muscles to push down, but I use the standing leg muscles as an additional "stop" mechanism.

Love them twisty hip drops! They are so lucious! Yum . . .

Deborah

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Yes. In my 'crisp' variation, you keep that knee nice and soft and snap the working hip from neutral to down by contracting the glute and inner thigh on the standing/supporting leg. (as opposed to the variations where you pull the hip up toward the ribcage first and then lower it to neutral).

Interesting. I've always done (and taught) the basic hip drop -- even crisp ones -- as a release of the waist contraction, from up and in to neutral. The contraction in the weighted glute stops the motion from carrying through, as Anala described.

Originally Posted by nasila

Interesting. I've always done (and taught) the basic hip drop -- even crisp ones -- as a release of the waist contraction, from up and in to neutral. The contraction in the weighted glute stops the motion from carrying through, as Anala described.

I teach the hip drop as a bit above neutral to down. Contract up just a bit, then either push or "drop/release" down.

No wonder we all learn things differently; there's no standardization in BD!

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

I teach the hip drop as a bit above neutral to down. Contract up just a bit, then either push or "drop/release" down.

No wonder we all learn things differently; there's no standardization in BD!

Deborah

This is me, too. I *introduce* it as neutral to down, but in practice we go slightly above neutral to get a bigger movement. Introducing the idea that hips can go *below* neutral is always a big 'aha' for the students, I find it helps their mayas & 8s, too.

And Deborah, I do use some pushing down from the waist on the moving side, but it's not my focus.