Thread: Class choreography for non class members? Ethics?

I had a disgruntled beginning student leave class to go start her own troupe and get professional gigs (yes, her again. Groan). She took 2 other students with her. Fine, bye. One of her friends stayed in my classes, but also actively participates in the other girl's troupe.

The Friend (the one who stayed in classes with me) told me last night that Disgruntled Student had gone and got her "troupe" a performing gig, and wanted to know if it would be okay if they performed a choreography that I'm teaching the class.

Now I taught a very basic version of this choreography in their beginner class. We are currently performing the more advanced version (with cymbals.) Since it's still an active class choreography, I don't want somebody else performing it. Is that fair to ask?

Also, I've made it clear that I don't want the Friend Student to go back to the other "troupe" and teach them what we learn in class. I told her "If they want to be on their own, they need to do their own material." I'm not sure how much of that sunk in, though.

Any suggestions as to how I should handle this? Ultimately they're going to do what they're going to do, but I'd like to know what I'm supposed to feel about it :)

well i think it's not right for them to perform YOUR choreo. it's ethically not right, but i guess you cant control what they do. hopefully the other troupe people would have the sense and respect to not perform your choreo. :(

Originally Posted by aziyade

I had a disgruntled beginning student leave class to go start her own troupe and get professional gigs (yes, her again. Groan). She took 2 other students with her. Fine, bye. One of her friends stayed in my classes, but also actively participates in the other girl's troupe.

The Friend (the one who stayed in classes with me) told me last night that Disgruntled Student had gone and got her "troupe" a performing gig, and wanted to know if it would be okay if they performed a choreography that I'm teaching the class.

Now I taught a very basic version of this choreography in their beginner class. We are currently performing the more advanced version (with cymbals.) Since it's still an active class choreography, I don't want somebody else performing it. Is that fair to ask?

Also, I've made it clear that I don't want the Friend Student to go back to the other "troupe" and teach them what we learn in class. I told her "If they want to be on their own, they need to do their own material." I'm not sure how much of that sunk in, though.

Any suggestions as to how I should handle this? Ultimately they're going to do what they're going to do, but I'd like to know what I'm supposed to feel about it :)

You are absolutely 100 percent right. I would be inclined to say no to the other troupe using the choreography as it's, as you say, still an active part of your class. Having students/teachers attend class to nick your ideas is common. I tend to sniff out offenders pretty quickly. I make it clear, whilst looking them in the eye, that my choreographies are mine and my don't want to see them performed elsewhere without my permission. One off workshop choreographies I don't mind. But what I use as a current runner in my classes is different.

You could always offer to choreograph for them- for a fee. It is ridiculous to ask if they can perform a choreo they haven't learned yet, & silly to want to perform a beginning level version on a professional level. Generally, if I teach something in class, I expect someone at some point is going to use it. Why pay to learn something you can't use? but an active class choreography that they haven't (as a group) learned from you- that's just bad form. Our troupe has used choreos we learn from other instructors- but we let them know that is our intent before we hire those instructors & take the class, so permission is very clear from the outset!

I think in this situation, I would ask them to refrain for now, and let them know you would be happy to teach them the choreography at a later date- for a fee. Maybe offer to teach a special class on developing your own choreography. You are right that there's not much you can do if they decide to do it anyway, but they won't be doing themselves any favors when the rest of the dance community sees them & says "wait a minute, I know that's Aziyade's choreo, why isn't she getting credit?" and if they ever want to take classes from you again, work with you or use another choreography, they'd better not alienate you, eh?

I have had talks with studio owners who put on a big production that stated "all choreographies developed by xy& z of this studio" when I recognized a choreo by my friend from a previous show. She had taught the choreo at the studio, but it really upset a few of us that a studio owner would misrepresent that in the program.

Overall, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If the 'friend' doesn't respect your wishes, you are within your rights to exclude her from class, eventually they will have to come up with their own material (or steal it from somewhere else) Not much sense in worrying about something you can't control.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

You are absolutely 100 percent right. I would be inclined to say no to the other troupe using the choreography as it's, as you say, still an active part of your class. Having students/teachers attend class to nick your ideas is common. I tend to sniff out offenders pretty quickly. I make it clear, whilst looking them in the eye, that my choreographies are mine and my don't want to see them performed elsewhere without my permission. One off workshop choreographies I don't mind. But what I use as a current runner in my classes is different.

boy, I just can't shut up today ,r:;
I know teachers who use the same choreo for a few years in their classes, & if someone performed their choreo, honestly the public might get sick of seeing it, or at least know "I saw this in the beginner showcase last fall" and get bored. Even with our troupe numbers, we are hard pressed to keep shows fresh, so our regular followers don't get bored at multiple shows.

personally, if someone want's to usemy creative work, I don't think it's any real skin off my nose- I am capable of creating new work, hopefully improving as I go. yeah, give me a chance to perform my own work first! but after that, it doesn't diminish my capability or esteem if someone else feels they HAVE to use it. If one of my students who has been taught the choreo is so moved by it that they make it their own, I don't mind in the least. At least your student had the sense to ask first, so at least one person is trying not to be completely alienated from you & the rest of the community.

The best response might be a quick and simple 'No, that choreography is an active part of our repertoire.'

Fewer words seems better in this case. Any apologies or explanations will only be repeated in a mocking tone of voice later and used against you.

You might also say '... and what they learned is a beginner student version. It's not suitable for a professional dance company to perform.'

(I don't see it being your responsibility to educate further by explaining!)

She asked, right? So...say no.

Restating it once, simply, to make your point, and expressing thanks that you were asked (even if you feel annoyed at the whole situation!) might not be a bad idea, just so everything is clear. At most, you could say "No. Those are active choreographies for my students. You do not have permission to perform them in another troupe. But thanks so much for asking!"

No over-explaining, and make the 'no' clear and obvious. Then whatever they go on to do, there is no way your words can be misconstrued.

Originally Posted by Lara L

It is ridiculous to ask if they can perform a choreo they haven't learned yet, & silly to want to perform a beginning level version on a professional level.

I absolutely agree that it's ridiculous to ask to perform an as-yet-unlearned choreo, and truly silly to want to perform a beginning level version of a choreo at at pro level. The problem is that these folks are beginners (including the "director"), not professionals. They're such beginners that they don't even know how ridiculous and how bad form they are.

I give choreo notes to my students and, at the bottom of each page of the choreo, the following is printed:

"The use of this choreography under any circumstance is prohibited without the express written consent of Deborah Peterson."

I don't know if I could make it any clearer than that.

I know that many teachers do not provide written notes and, therefore, cannot have this written all over their work, but you could certainly have some type of form for all students to sign.

I'm with Lauren, keep it simple ("No, you cannot") with as little explanation as possible.

Good luck.

Deborah

Thanks gang!

Here's the odd thing. I had a message from Friend Student on my answering machine tonight. Maybe she reads the boards, or maybe she just sensed I was a little uneasy about this. We had a nice talk and I believe we both understand each other. She is a very sweet girl, and I think she's genuine.

Sure, they're going to do what they're going to do, but at least I feel like I have an open channel of communication with MY student, and I'm a whole lot less weird about the whole thing.

Thanks! :)

I asked my teacher something about something similar regarding a troupe who were performing a class choreo of ours. Her view was that we were always going to keep choreographing new material and since they'd learned the choreography in class, albeit at different times, we should just leave them to it.

The plot thickens ... (lol)

Last night I thought about it, and I was considering talking to Friend Student and saying "oh if you absolutely want it, I guess you can use it." But this morning I received a very cryptic message from Disgruntled Student, basically saying if I don't like the direction her dance is going that I should call her. ???

So, if you're reading this:

For the record, I think you made a completely bone-headed decision to quit taking classes so you could pursue your own teaching "career." I certainly hope that you are taking regular private lessons because continued training is ABSOLUTELY necessary, especially at that in-between beginning and intermediate levels -- which you need to realize is WHERE you are. Read the threads here about unqualified teachers, and DON'T let yourself BE ONE!!!

If you are going to have a "troupe" then you need to be able to outfit your troupe with your own choreographies. If you were unsatisfied with my teaching, I can't understand why you would even WANT those choreographies??? Do you not understand that the amazing beauty of this dance is how individual it is? How personal it is?

Please stay on Bhuz and really read through the threads. You left before you even had a fraction of what I could teach you -- and what you NEED to know -- so learn from the sources here. You owe yourself, not to mention your students, that much.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6e1E8vAAvU"]YouTube - Ian Bernardo - So you think you can Dance[/ame]

Originally Posted by Lauren_

YouTube - Ian bernardo possibly the biggest twat alive Tries for So you think you can Dance & American Idol.

I remember the first time I saw that clip, I laughed so hard I nearly peed my pants. "I dance in my room! I dance at my friend's house. I dance at the clubs!" ..l;, All in this tone that implies the judges should be extremely impressed with those credentials.

Thanks for the morning laugh, Lauren!

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,

Ah, that's been my problem all along! I'm not with myself 24-7.

???


Thanks for that! Leave it to Lauren to put everything into perspective...

Well I just don't know what to say. A beginner student??? leaving class to form a professional group???? asking her TEACHER????? If it's okay to perform that choreo????? WTF????? Am I missing something???? NO. She shouldn't be out there period.

Originally Posted by norma

Well I just don't know what to say. A beginner student??? leaving class to form a professional group???? asking her TEACHER????? If it's okay to perform that choreo????? WTF????? Am I missing something???? NO. She shouldn't be out there period.

no, she shouldn't, but she is & we do have to deal with these things- unfortunately more than we'd like to- this is hardly the first time something like this has happened. Either they will get a clue and start learning (fingers crossed!) get bored and drop out of sight (what usually happens from what I've seen/heard) or stick around on the fringes, at least, trying to drive the rest of us batty. It's easy enough to say don't let them get to you (& I do mean it when I say that!) but while they're on the scene, we do have to deal with them.

LOL- I've come to the conclusion that a lot of what I don't understand about goofy students is the arrogance of youth, or the arrogance of people who don't want to bother to actually put the WORK into this dance that they know other people do. I really don't understand this -- BUT, I had almost the same discussion with Karim Nagi, who was surprised at the arrogance of many American students.

I want to blame a lot of this on the Youtube generation -- you can literally get famous overnight, for doing nothing that requires any skill, and somehow then you are regarded as an authority on whatever stupid thing you did. :)

BUT -- what I believe, and what seems to have happened in the past, is that bad teachers are quickly identified, and piss-poor performers become flashes in the pan that pretty much die out and disappear quickly.

Norma -- yes, I'm floored by the arrogance of some of the people I've personally encountered and those I've read about here and on the other boards. But the older I get the less I'm surprised by any stupid thing they do. What frustrates me is that for every stupid thing they do, I have to work 3 times as hard to overcome in my community.

BUT -- maybe it's karma, but usually when I hear about some stupid decision made by a so-called belly dancer in my area, there comes an unrelated opportunity for me to show this dance in the proper context and earn it the proper respect. I just wish I could spend more time DANCING instead of cleaning up after these dipsh_t people, but I'm beginning to see that's just the nature of this particular art form :/

Honestly though, I've never seen such a degree of arrogance and overestimated ability than I've seen with the fringe bellydance community.

NO NO NO it's your choreo. You need to video tape it, write it down whatever you have to do to copyright it as yours.
Do you live in a place with tons of jobs? How is this troupe able to get gigs so easily? I think you should tell your story to as many peers in the community as possible.

You need to make it clear to all your students that no choreography is to be used without permission. This way everybody will have to talk to you if they want to use it and you can use your discretion. I wouldn't let this disgruntled student use my choreography under any circumstances because it's the competition using your talents. No other business in the world would allow this.

Unfortunately, I do have to agree that there is so much overestimated ability going on these days. I would also have to say that it is the public's fault as well. They don't know what true belly dance should look like so as long as a girl fits the part and looks good, she is a belly dancer. It's sad but true.

You know what annoyed me was the attitude that "I want to be on my own, but I still want your choreographies." Or I guess what it really ended up being is more like "I booked a job before I actually had enough material to perform for the whole hour, so now I need to use your stuff!" Does the phrase "not ready for primetime" seem apropos here?

I said no, and explained my reasoning (It's an active class choreography and we will be performing it.) Whatever they do now is up to them.

You know, if I actually thought Disgruntled Student had the ability to do the cymbal version, I honestly would love to send the notes to her and say "go forth and dance." I really don't have an issue with students using my lame choreographies -- as a base for their own dances. I'm NOT a great choreographer and if they can take what I give them and make it better, that's cool. But with all the drama and snarkfest that surrounded this girl, I really would prefer to just not be associated with her at all, or have any of my choreographies associated with her either.

I think it's a moot point now, since I've said no and they're on their own to decide whether to abide by my wishes or not. They DID pay for the original choreography, so I guess they should be allowed to do that -- just not the new version with cymbals. ..c::

this is an interesting dilemma... reading it and absorbing the info...