Thread: Giving feedback to a student who doesn't want it.

I have a student who has been in my class for years who won't let me correct her.

When I make the rounds to give individual feedback, as soon as I reach her, she always has to stop moving due to knee or hip pain (which she communicates by rubbing her knees or hips in an almost pantomime, silent-movie dramatization of hip or knee pain). She *always* chooses the spot nearest the door and will sometimes leave the room for a drink of water as soon as I'm headed around the room.

Clearly she realizes her technique needs work (which it does), and fears correction. This student really enjoys class, enjoys dressing up and doing student shows, etc. She's a joy to have around, is helpful to the other students with sewing tips, even brought a ton of her own costume bits to loan out to her classmates. I really like her.

But I think she's considering moving up a level, and I just can't allow it. I usually let my students self-promote after X months of a certain level, and I haven't had a problem before. I don't want to change my whole system & start testing up or something for one student.

I know what I need to do. I need to tell her, if she tries to register for the next level up, that I see some technique issues that might be contributing to her knee pain and I'm worried that the next level might be hard on her body if we don't get those corrected. I should recommend she schedule a private with me to identify her technique issues before she moves up.

I guess I just need the courage to do the right thing. Is that what you'd do?

Stand your ground. Have a heart to heart with her. Remember when talking to anyone about an evaluation you must deliver seven positives for each negative or critque. She may come up with excuses , but I bet if you took aside and explained she cannot move up until she can demonstrate the skill set. She would probably respect your honesty. You are the instructor so you 're the one setting the rules for your quality of the dance you want your teaching to reflect. Good luck.
Susu

OMG Lauren, I swear I could have written that post! I have a student that does the exact same thing!! To a TEE!!! Haven't done much about it, though, other than continue to correct her even if she's tending to an "injury".

OMG Daniela, that's amazing!

It makes me really sad. I think she must know that she's got technique issues or she wouldn't be so afraid of the correction. To me it means she's given up on herself.

I've let it go, because frankly she signed on for a fun class, not an evaluation. BUT I really can't let her progress too far beyond her current technique mastery or she'll wind up getting injured.

Hi Lauren - Just to express the other side of the issue -

I have been in the position in the past where I would avoid an instructor when she came around for individual feedback. Sometimes, I was tired in class after working all day or having little sleep the night before, and wasn't doing a move particularly well. Or, some moves I have trouble with and work on them. Or, I just wanted to have fun that day.

Sometimes, seeing that instructor heading towards me was a massive discouragement - I would feel singled out or embarrassed (even if the teacher was not intentionally singling me out) and having someone come up to me every single class for correction really wore me down. Some days, I'm positive and all about feedback and correction, other days, I just want to shut up and dance and work through the move or combination on my own.

Also, I think it's important to consider the issue here - is it that you can't allow her to move up a level because of her technique or because she is not interested in your individual feedback during class? You mention that her technique needs work - and of course, you should address that with her if she asks to advance. But discussing her technique and resistance to feedback may come across as "You won't let me correct you so you don't get to move up." Not that you would say that, but it might be what she hears.

Maybe now would be the time to address her disinterest in individual feedback - asking her in private if she is uncomfortable with your corrections and feedback and try to find out why. And then, if she asks to move up, you can address her technique issues.

I eventually spoke to the instructor and told her that I felt very uncomfortable with her feedback in class (for a few different reasons too long to go into here) and that I was very clear on the areas where I needed to improve and we discussed those areas. Afterwards, she would walk by me and just a wink or slight nod from her would suffice for me to do a necessary correction and we both felt much more comfortable.

Thanks, Philly. Nope, the problem isn't that she won't take feedback, it's that she has a LOT of trouble executing basic moves, and her technique actually seems to be deteriorating over the years. I've let her slide in level 2 even though there are moves from level 1 that she's not executing correctly.

It's OK with me for her to hang out in level 2 without working on any real improvement, if that makes her happy (and it has seemed to). But she will hurt herself in level 3 -- trying to layer shimmies over slides when she isn't sliding, for instance, and still locks her knees. Without some technique cleanup, she can't move up. And I can't clean up her technique if she avoids my feedback.

I'm EXTREMELY cautious not to single her out, because it's clear she's uncomfortable. Usually I'm walking around, checking & talking to each person -- except her, because she avoids me. I wish she'd come talk to me after class or schedule a private if she wants to work away from the group, it would make things so much easier if she seemed to want my help, but she doesn't.

Again, that's all fine if she just wants to have some fun & exercise, but I can't let her move on to more advanced technique with locked knees and an arched back. For her own sake. If she can correct those things without my feedback, fine, it's not about the feedback, it's about the technique.

Before I ever correct a student on an individual basis...I like to make a general correction for the entire class to hear. I will repeat this technique often. I try to make it seem as if all dancers should be aware of this _ _ issue. As well a more advanced student can always use a reminder... tuck under/chin up/keep breathing/lift with your deltoids...etc....
Not all Belly Dance students are in it to become a BDSS, they just want a little exercise and social activity...keep it fun!

I think your plan is the right way to do things. It's tactful enough she shouldn't have hurt feelings and shows you are concerned with her well being. It allows her to take the out of getting one on one attention in a private lesson if correction in front of others bothers her as well.

I have a question along similar lines I might as well tack on here. How do you deal with a student who ignores your corrections? No matter how you phrase it, what you do, it goes in one ear and out the other because they think they are already doing everything correctly and refuse to believe that they could possibly be wrong?

I think most people tend to forget how many ways there are to screw up a move once it's second nature to them, no matter how hard they try to remember.

I doubt any student is all about thinking they couldn't possibly be doing something wrong. It's more like they just don't see or feel it. Maybe hands on is necessary.

If I felt someone didn't want my correction I wouldn't give it. It will take care of itself if and when she wants to go a level up.

Injuries are usually very real and a person may simply feel like they know they can't do this or that correctly so they don't want to take up your time when they have a good reason for not being able to do it right.

Why not call her at home. Let her know that as a teacher it is YOUR job to make sure that YOUR students are doing the technique right in order to prevent injury. Let her know that you are on to her game of walking out or having an injury (which could be from doing her moves wrong). Let her know that you will work with her in private if it would make her feel better but let her know you will NOT ignore her anymore.

You could also gently point out that in the next level up, she definitely *will* be coached/corrected along with all the other students

Lauren

I'd do exactly as you suggest in your original post - as usual I think you've got it just right.

The way you say it, you're making it clear that you're speaking for her benefit - to help her to move up to the next class if she wants to and to ensure she's doing right by her body. So you're not being Mrs Nasty, you're just being a caring, responsible teacher.

Then it's up to her, if she hates the idea of correction she stays in the current level and if she continues to have knee trouble then it's her responsibility - you've tried to help and she's decided not to take up the offer.

Thanks for all the thoughts & advice everyone.

Sunshine, that's exactly how I was hoping it would come off. Thanks!

I've had a couple situations like this. I've noticed that, for some folks, the dancing is almost secondary. They like being part of a group, contributing their (non-dance) skills, socializing with the others, etc. But they aren't actually interested in improving their dance. Sometimes they'd like to move up because their peers are, or because they feel they've put in the time, or because it's what is expected of them.
However, If you allowed her to move up, even with the caveats discussed above, you would be responsible for correcting her in the more advanced level and you probably would be obligated to spend more time on her than the other students. The others would be aware of both her lack of technique and the time spent on her.
So I'd deliver the original message, but also reinforce how much she contributes to the group and how much you value that.

I can't think of any advice better than what's already been given, other than to say I think you're on the right track with your approach. I don't envy you the discussion, though, as it will likely be uncomfortable no matter how well meaning and important it is.

Lauren,

How about emailing her about all this? If she can't stand confrontation - to the point where helping her improve is considered confrontation anyway - then perhaps an email explaining everything would be best.

Beats the hell out of me why anyone would construe help from a teacher as an intrusion, no matter what they've been through considering one goes to class to learn, but oh well....I'm so glad I don't teach, this kind of thing would annoy me to no end. ,r:;

Wow, this is the exact opposite issue I have! I wish MORE instructors would come around and correct me! I feel that not enough instructors stop by each student to give them personal attention. It's why I have to spend more money on private lessons. That way, the teacher can't ever get away from me! LOL!

This student sounds really insecure, sadly. I'd definitely give her a call or email her (emailing sounds best, since its so impersonal, but that sounds like what this student needs). Explain that you love having her in class and you really want to see her succeed, but the whole purpose of classes is to learn and improve, and there's only so much she can learn by sight (passively) without having the instructor correct on an individual basis. Maybe, if you're so inclined, you could offer to meet with her 10 min before class starts to go over the moves you'll be teaching that day, and have her drill it just for you and give her corrections/stuff to work on right there, in private, so she already knows what to be mindful of when the time comes in class to drill it. That way, she can't feel singled out if there's no one else there! She's getting special attention, instead. I don't know if that idea is even possible though.

Originally Posted by danidance

I'm so glad I don't teach, this kind of thing would annoy me to no end. ,r:;

Me too. Old school ballet, either take correction or get out of my class...

Yes there is a little drill sergeant in there from the navy days...

Originally Posted by danidance

Lauren,

How about emailing her about all this? If she can't stand confrontation - to the point where helping her improve is considered confrontation anyway - then perhaps an email explaining everything would be best.

Beats the hell out of me why anyone would construe help from a teacher as an intrusion, no matter what they've been through considering one goes to class to learn, but oh well....I'm so glad I don't teach, this kind of thing would annoy me to no end. ,r:;

ROTF - I have to admit - me too. I've always had teachers who bellow it out and I LOVE that technique personally. Don't really have the sensitivity to handle teaching

Lauren, i think you're on the right track.
if she indicates she really wants to improve and advance, but is scared/embarrassed, suggest a private session in which you identify some specific areas she needs to work on. ID 3-4 main things she needs to correct, and teach her what she needs to do to overcome the problem, and agree on a non-verbal code for each that you can use to signal her to correct herself.
for example, when she locks her knees, you can catch her eye and give your knee a quick pat, and she can fix it.

that way you can correct her w/o going near her or saying anything to her, so she won't get embarrassed or frightened. she'll watch you like a hawk for the cues so they don't have to be big and obvious.
she'll learn that corrections are not mean or scary and she'll start to be eager for them as she sees improvement in her dancing, and i bet you will eventually be able to correct her directly.

OK, guys. In spite of all your great advice I've botched this one.

I was so engrossed in putting together the student show that this student managed to go ahead and register for level 3 before I did/said anything, and classes start this week. (currently, students can move up a level after 3 sessions, and she's more than met that requirement. I intend to make changes to that system, but it's too late now)

Now what? I fear I'm too wimpy for the confrontation that needs to happen.

You could announce at the beginning of the first class that at this level you will be requiring the students to demonstrate their proficiency/level of mastery of each movement during class time so that you may correct any problems you observe with their technique and that if they are not willing to comply with or not comfortable with this process they might want to move into your level 2 class...I'm sure you could find a better way to phrase this to get your point across and it might be enough to "scare" her into the level two or enough to make her realize that if she's going to be there she will have to allow you to see her technique.

oooooh, that's an interesting idea. This is a brand-new class so I can do something completely new here. And there's such a gap between the level 2s (who are advanced beginners, mostly 5-8 months' experience) and the level 4s (who have more like 4 years) I'm going to have to do something serious in level 3 to bridge the gap.

It's a good spot to introduce a new approach to the levels as well.

I also wish I could find a time slot for a 'just for fun' class, for students who don't want to progress through levels but just want to exercise & play. (though this student likes to perform, so she wouldn't go to a just-for-fun class).

Originally Posted by Lauren_

oooooh, that's an interesting idea. This is a brand-new class so I can do something completely new here. And there's such a gap between the level 2s (who are advanced beginners, mostly 5-8 months' experience) and the level 4s (who have more like 4 years) I'm going to have to do something serious in level 3 to bridge the gap.

It's a good spot to introduce a new approach to the levels as well.

I also wish I could find a time slot for a 'just for fun' class, for students who don't want to progress through levels but just want to exercise & play. (though this student likes to perform, so she wouldn't go to a just-for-fun class).

Lauren, I was thinking of you in my Bikram class today. Really, I think you are being way to sensitive and kind to this student, which is nice of you but dayam. There comes a point in any endeavor where if you can't take criticism you just are not going to get any further. And here B.Susan has come up with a great place for you to find the opening you need for this student and for many in the future.

She wants to perform so I have to assume that she's at least somewhat serious and at least has comprehension that she has to be able to do well enough not to bring the rest of your students down.

In the afforementioned Bikram class most of us are so grateful to get any personal correction. I'm talking about classes where there are often well over fifty students, we are lucky if the instructor can see us. The instructors have on a microphone and they will identify you any way they can and correct is done loudly (thank you) so that the other twenty or so people who are doing it wrong can see who you are and what you are doing wrong.

Sometimes people just have to suck it up .p::

Thanks, gwoofer. And you're right. And there comes a point, as an instructor, where 'nice' is a personal handicap to your job.

My personal need for everyone to love me --and fear of confrontation -- has to be set aside for the good of this student and the group.

I have a similar issue with a really sweet, lovely student who joined my classes after studying for five years with another local teacher. She's one of those older ladies who will probably never be able to remember which foot is left and which is right, and doing one after the other is completely beyond her

the trouble is that she insists that she must come to my level 3 class because she's been studying bellydance for five years already and the other teacher put her in the level 3 class.

But my level 3 is haaarrrrd and I take no prisoners. The poor lady flails around and the others keep tripping over her. I've said on repeated occasions that the level is too hard for her and she really should be doing level 2 but she just refuses.

I posted a thread about this on the old forum and after advice from Bhuzzards laid down a new law after Easter that anyone wanting to do the level 3 class had to be personally invited by me or if they came from another class they had to do an audition.

I've been able to be really tough with everyone so far but this lady hasn't turned up to class since then. But I saw her at a hafla the other day and she says she's really looking forward to coming back to class.

I'm dreading having to say that she can't do the level 3 because as I say, she's really sweet and she's incredibly complimentary about my classes and is always recommending them to her friends. I'd love some advice on how to handle it....

Lauren, shall we start a softy teacher support club where we can wind each other up to be tough on nice students?

Sunshine -- I think Bhuz IS that group! Sometimes I just *think* about posting a question here and then I know what everyone will say -- and I realize what I need to do without posting.

It seems cruel, though, to have let these women move up and then make it hard on them. It would be better to take them aside and have a heart-to-heart with them. I'd be a better teacher if I had more cojones. But then, most of my students don't want a good dance teacher, they want a fun, loving leader & cheerleader, don't they?

I think at the very least I'll be giving my group little speeches about how your level doesn't always reflect your ability, some students might stay in a lower level than they're capable of as a reflection of their level of interest in the hobby, amount of time they have to devote to practice each week, etc. There's no shame in staying where it's fun for you instead of pushing yourself so hard, etc.

Well in fact what I did earlier this year was to say that I was introducing new rules from Easter onwards but that the rules would only apply to new applicants and anyone who was already in the class could stay at that level. I put the new rules in writing and on my website. So the people I've been tough with so far are all new applicants to level 3. if they're not up to it I explain what the criteria are for entry and what they need to work on to get them up to the level.

The issue with this particular lady is that she hasn't been since Easter. So she's missed four months of classes. She was also the least able to manage the class and was causing problems for the others because they really were falling over her all the time because she never knows which direction she's meant to be moving in and can't really manage any of the moves.

So if she does come back to class, given that she hasn't been for so long, I'm thinking it may be the ideal time to say I changed the criteria for entry to the class and it really is too hard for her.

I guess it's a different situation from your student, Lauren, in that she came to me from another teacher and hasn't been with me for long at all. But there again, I just feel so rotten given that she's so sweet and kind and supportive of me ..c::

Sunshine,

You need to come to Dani's Camp for Toughness. ..g.:

You and Lauren are both so gentle and these people are banking on it. Don't let them do the passive aggressive crap - that's just unacceptable in a learning situation! yeesh. I generally dislike passive aggressiveness - it's annoying.

Sending tough vibes your way ...

Originally Posted by danidance

Sunshine,

You need to come to Dani's Camp for Toughness. ..g.:

You and Lauren are both so gentle and these people are banking on it. Don't let them do the passive aggressive crap - that's just unacceptable in a learning situation! yeesh. I generally dislike passive aggressiveness - it's annoying.

Sending tough vibes your way ...

I had one student ask me six times - in person and in e-mails - why she couldn't move into my advanced class. I had to justify the reasons, six times. (She was very much a beginner student and hadn't even mastered the basics - but her friend was in my advanced class.) Some people just try to wear you down.

I finally recommended her to another teacher - who put her in her advanced class. ..c::