Thread: Asian Student Question

OK, I think this is completely bogus, but an Asian student told me that the Asian bootie is lower physically than other culture's booties. Now I think we're all about the same on the inside muscularly, but has anyone heard different? She insists it's true, I told her I'd ask around and see - just to humor her. I know genetically we all develop fatty tissue differently (my saddle bags are proof of that) but aren't the muscles and bones pretty much the same (allowing for some differences in bone size obviously)? I've heard of South American people sometimes - generally speaking - having long hip flexors and having a harder time keeping the bottom under because of it...but a genetically different gluteus seems unlikely.

I think everyone's body is different, but we can all learn to do the things we need to do to dance well, given practice. The exercise we were doing was the one where you sit down in a straddle and rotate the hips forward and flex and release single glutes.

What do you say my friends?

KS

a perfect topic for a biology dissertation: Quantitative Assessment of Gluteus Maximus Placement in female Homo sapiens

Originally Posted by BELLA_BELLA

a perfect topic for a biology dissertation: Quantitative Assessment of Gluteus Maximus Placement in female Homo sapiens

Get the scientists on it! ..l;,

My (scientific) guess is that any ethnic group has the same genetic material as any other. It's just that the genes are expressed differently, as over time, certain characteristics have been concentrated in a population (and thus are more likely to be expressed than other characteristics). Anatomically, Asians could have slightly different fatty tissue and muscle deposits, and perhaps slightly different pelvic structure that are a result of a difference in gene expression. Of course, individual people (not just different ethnic groups) have very different genetic expression too; it's what makes us all look a little different from each other.

Does she think having a bit different posterior prevents her from doing some moves? We have a couple of Taiwanese gals in our group and as far as I can tell, they dance the same as any of the rest of us with flat posteriors! ..l;,

lol - I know! If only there were a study...

Originally Posted by Michala

My (scientific) guess is that any ethnic group has the same genetic material as any other. It's just that the genes are expressed differently, as over time, certain characteristics have been concentrated in a population (and thus are more likely to be expressed than other characteristics). Anatomically, Asians could have slightly different fatty tissue and muscle deposits, and perhaps slightly different pelvic structure that are a result of a difference in gene expression. Of course, individual people (not just different ethnic groups) have very different genetic expression too; it's what makes us all look a little different from each other...l;,

Exactly. Even groups within racial groups are "arranged" differently. White women come in all shapes and sizes, as well as black women, Hispanic and Asian. To me, this is not such an unusual observation. .w.:

I've never heard this before, but I've most definitely known men who insist that there is a special Latina booty (round and lush), a special African American booty (high and firm), and a white girl booty (wide and flat). *shrugs*

Does she think it affects her dancing? Maybe you can show her video of Kaeshi, Azhia, Nanae et al?

Good idea Lauren! She's got the belly dance bug pretty bad and this is only her second class. I've tried to assure her that if she keeps working on it, her body can do everything it needs to do, but it will take time and practice. She actually practices at home and does really well in class. She's been reading about shimmies (the different types - and that's enough to confuse anyone) and is jumping the gun a bit.

I don't want her to be discouraged, so I'll recomend those videos. I also recommended David's EDA technical manual since she's freaking out a bit about shimmy definitions.

I think she's a little worried about it effecting her dancing, so some videos will most likely help!

Thanks,

KS

Is she Japanese? I've heard "Japanese people have short legs" from many Japanese people, and that could be what she's getting into.

Anyway, heaps of people of Asian descent can belly dance. I know lots of them. So tell her not to worry!

Glute squeezes are hard. The first thing is to check that she's sitting correctly in straddle sit, making sure she's sitting on her sitting bones as opposed to on her glutes. Then she needs to practice a lot and do exercises to strengthen that muscle outside of class.

Maybe you could recommend her Suhaila's DVDs (although seeing Suhaila's booty in action might discourage her at first) or Sharon Kihara's, Aubre's, etc. There are a number of dancers that include booty exercises in their videos.

As for South American and other Latinas having longer hip flexors that's what happens when arching your lower back is your normal posture. I see it a lot in my black students too.

Is she concerned b/c she finds that it's affecting her ability to do sitting/straddle glute isolations?

Probably the best determiner if this is true is to start staring at everyone's bum.

An acquaintence of mine was doing a physiological/cultural study of how various ethnic "body types" affects the type of dance that is, hence, developed as a result of the physiological structure. Kinda chicken and egg, though. Did the dance develop b/c of the way the body is shaped or is the body shaped the way it is because of the dance? I thought it was an interesting question for a dance master's thesis.

When I lived in Japan, I noticed a large number of Japanese women with bow-legged, pronated knees, and thicker ankles. My gut rationale for this was that over generations in sitting in seiza position, their physiology changed such that it could accommodate that sitting position easier. Or that the sitting position caused the pronated knees, bow-leggedness, and cankles; but this is unsubstantiated scientifically, it's just my own conclusion.

I have always wanted to develop the upper portion of my glutes but noticed that most of my junk is, in fact, in the lower portion of my bum. But when I weighed more in college, I had more of a bubble/shelf butt. SO, each person is different and possibly throughout their lives.

It should not, however, affect your student's ability to do glute squeezes, which is a matter of strength and control in that area, developed over time and practice. My glute squeezes are pretty strong having done the format for a significant period of time. At the beginning, however, nothing goin' on down there!

[Thank you, Lauren ]

PS/OT: This coming from someone who may not be considered Asian. Some people don't consider Filipinos Asian. Then wtf are we?!

what asian is she? chinese japanese korean vietnamese indian srilankan?

i notice one difference with us yellow people is that our muscle are not born as firm as black people. and when we're fat we're fat everywhere, not lucky like other colour people still have skinny legs and nice chin.

but no matter the difference is, i don't think it affect us on learning dance technique. your student might be finding excuse just in case she can never do the moves. yellow people hate to lose face you know.

I have one Japanese student, one Taiwanese student in my class. The Japanese lady learned everything faster because she actually practised at home (I told the whole class to). She told me that in her culture, you do what the teacher says! So from my limited experience, it will be a help because of the work ethic.

btw, the hip flexors are lengthening when you bring the pelvis into a neutral dance position. Short hip flexors cause a lordotic position -- the hip creases deepen and the butt sticks out (they pull the top of the pelvis forward, toward the front of the thigh, since that's where they attach). So I think what you guys are meaning to say is that these groups have shorter hip flexors? Rather than longer?



Anatomy geeks who want to read the text, see 'Anterior Force Couple' about a third of the way down the page here:
TMUSCLE.com | Hips Don't Lie: Fixing Your Force Couples

Lauren, you always have THE BEST links ... thank you - so helpful!!

Wow, so much information! I believe she is from China, thanks for the correction on the hip flexor, that makes more sense. Where do you find those things Lauren? Wow!

I think what was said about loosing face may be at the base root of the comment - I may need to be sensitive to that. It's great to have a student so eager to learn and concerned about doing things correctly.

We did go over the proper position to sit in to do the glute squeezes. I wonder if it would be helpful to try a different postition if she continues to have a problem. There are a few other Suhaila approved postioins to do those in.

Really I was just amazed that she thought her glutes were so different from anyone else's - I agree that with time and practice, just about everyone could control their heinies - assuming they'd not lost them in a shark attack or something.

Thanks everyone, I kinda expected this thread to not get much action, but it's more interesting than I anticipated...

:)

KS

When I lived in Japan, I noticed a large number of Japanese women with bow-legged, pronated knees, and thicker ankles. My gut rationale for this was that over generations in sitting in seiza position, their physiology changed such that it could accommodate that sitting position easier. Or that the sitting position caused the pronated knees, bow-leggedness, and cankles; but this is unsubstantiated scientifically, it's just my own conclusion.

I wonder if that's why I'm slightly bow-legged. Hmm. Interesting theory.

I'm Korean, and I don't think I've experienced any physical reason why I can't do anything. Looking at famous people's backsides, besides size, I don't think mine is different or that you'd be able to point mine out as the Asian by just looking.

Originally Posted by s1dur1_sab1tu

We did go over the proper position to sit in to do the glute squeezes. I wonder if it would be helpful to try a different postition if she continues to have a problem. There are a few other Suhaila approved postioins to do those in.

Defintiely have her try another position! I tried for years to do the squeezes in a straddle, and had no luck whatsoever. Even at my most flexible, my straddle sucks. I just figured I'd never be able to do glute squeezes and pretty much gave up. Then I got Michelle Joyce's Drills Drills Drills, and she has you do them standing up. Well, hot dog, I was finally able to isolate my glutes and squeeze them! Now it's a piece of cake, even though I still can't do them in a straddle. I don't know if Michelle's way is Suhaila approved, but a change of position can definitely help!

My friend's Mum, who is an obstaetrician, once told me that Asian ladies tended to be more flexible in the pelvic area. She said that they were able to give birth to larger babies even though they were often smaller in the pelvis, because of this additional flexibility.

My own unscientific observation of students has been that quite a few of my Asian students are able to stretch their hip flexors more than average. They are often able to scoop the pelvis forward (*see below) without having to bend their knees much. This is anatomically impossible for myself and many students.

I don't think we can say that any ethic group *can't* do certain moves, but I do believe there can be ethnic tendencies towards certain physiological features that may help or hinder certain moves. Like anything, though, it's all a mix of individual body type, what you've trained in before, cultural conditioning for or against certain ways of moving, etc etc.

* The tucked position at the front of a pelvic circle or omi, where you're pulling your tummy in and the bottom of the pelvis is coming forward while the top tilts back. The opposite of duck-butt.

Originally Posted by jewelbellydance

My friend's Mum, who is an obstaetrician, once told me that Asian ladies tended to be more flexible in the pelvic area. She said that they were able to give birth to larger babies even though they were often smaller in the pelvis, because of this additional flexibility.

My own unscientific observation of students has been that quite a few of my Asian students are able to stretch their hip flexors more than average. They are often able to scoop the pelvis forward (*see below) without having to bend their knees much. This is anatomically impossible for myself and many students.

I don't think we can say that any ethic group *can't* do certain moves, but I do believe there can be ethnic tendencies towards certain physiological features that may help or hinder certain moves. Like anything, though, it's all a mix of individual body type, what you've trained in before, cultural conditioning for or against certain ways of moving, etc etc.

* The tucked position at the front of a pelvic circle or omi, where you're pulling your tummy in and the bottom of the pelvis is coming forward while the top tilts back. The opposite of duck-butt.

Again, just observation from having lived several areas in Asia, I can see this to be fairly true. It is pretty easy for many Asians to squat. Over the toilet, in the street just hanging out, etc., whereas this position would be difficult for some Westerner's to maintain, much less get into.

You need to bend your knees to do that? To lift up and in? I must be a genetic freak, or possibly Asian, then, because I can do it with my legs straight.

Seriously? That's quite unusual, I would have thought. It's a tuck. OTOH I am a totally flat-arsed person who doesn't naturally drop my pelvis much.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

You need to bend your knees to do that? To lift up and in? I must be a genetic freak, or possibly Asian, then, because I can do it with my legs straight.

Seriously? That's quite unusual, I would have thought. It's a tuck. OTOH I am a totally flat-arsed person who doesn't naturally drop my pelvis much.

I can, too. I've had students who can't, but I usually assumed it was because they were trying to use the glutes/hamstrings to create the tuck because their 'tucking muscles' in the front of the body (lower abs, upper thighs near hte hip crease) weren't strong enough or under their control enough yet. When i have a group with a lot of those students, I have them lie down on the floor and practice tucking by pressing their lower backs toward the floor, first with bent knees but relaxed legs, then with straight legs.

I'll have to check in and see if some of my advanced students still need to bend their knees to create the tuck. It never occurred to me this was a bodily difference, although there could be a skeletal difference in the hip joint (for instance, if the thighs externally rotate then the greater trochanter might be in the way). *brain explodes from possibilities*

Sorry for the threadjack.

For what it's worth Lauren I have quite a lot of natural turnout in the hip area, if that helps for the "thinking", and my ballet teacher seems to connect turnout and core strength.