Thread: When do you zill?

I've recently run into the theory that zills are to only be used during parts of the dance and music where you wish to encourage the audience to clap - mostly during faster, percussive sections where the drumming is layered and emphatic.

The theory I've been working on comes from another angle, though. I've been zilling when the music calls for it as an addition to a minimal/moderate section of the music - one where the zills complement the basic drum that's there and add to the importance of the section - and to draw attention to parts that may otherwise be missed.

So, here's a question for all of you who teach zills as part of your classes. Where in the music do you encourage your students to zill? Is there a "right" and a "wrong" place? Or "traditional" and "non-traditional"?

I'm very interested in your replies!

we do not zill during floor or veil.if during a taxim, it is a rlrlrlrl edge click

traditionaly, turkish style picks along with the melody.we zill arabic, with the drum, not melody

About the only time I wouldn't zill is during a drum solo; that's the drummer/drum's time to show off. I'm an old-school AmCab dancer-enter with zills on and use them whenever practical. I might not play them while using my veil, but they're on my fingers!

old schol and you dont zill with drum?
guess we are from diff old schools.my teacher, jenaeni rathor was great at this.she taught me question and answer.i was taught the only time you freestyle on zills is during the drum solo.
i have clips on my youtube working with drummer with my zills.wow.NOW THAT IS a horse of a diff color!

I've seen zills being used both with the drum and without. I think it depends on the drummer - maybe some of them don't like zills being used while they are drumming.

ok, could be.but i have never worked with a drummer with that in mind.hmmmmm

Originally Posted by zamora

ok, could be.but i have never worked with a drummer with that in mind.hmmmmm

I haven't used zills with a drummer but I would bet they would love jammin' with a dancer.

Seems like it would only be polite to talk to the drummer in advance. If it's somebody you've never danced with before, he might prefer to actually solo.

i have worked with drummers that were scared of me, lol.i whisper, "just give me a good back beat, i'll fill in and follow with zills".

Originally Posted by zamora

i have worked with drummers that were scared of me, lol.i whisper, "just give me a good back beat, i'll fill in and follow with zills".

..l;,..l;,..l;,

It might be that when people are less secure in their zilling, they'll tend to stick to zilling during the louder, up beat, clappy times where they can feel there is enough noise and action to mute errors of insecure or poor zilling.

The more comfortable I grown with zills the more likely I am to want to find pockets in quieter moments where I can really be musical, or use them to highlight what I'm picking up out of the music and accenting with my body...in addition to the upbeat, happy-clappy moments.

Originally Posted by Zeevah

The theory I've been working on comes from another angle, though. I've been zilling when the music calls for it as an addition to a minimal/moderate section of the music - one where the zills complement the basic drum that's there and add to the importance of the section - and to draw attention to parts that may otherwise be missed.

I subscribe to this theory also.

Karim Nagi teaches an interesting workshop on cymbals and vocal music. Basically he taught us to use the cymbals as a percussive lezma in the music in between the singer's phrasing.

I LOVE cymbals, but I think of them as another "voice" in the orchestra. If there are too many voices singing at once, you can't appreciate the music. Most of the time I'll play cymbals when the voices of the orchestra sound like they could use an extra soprano. Ya know?

happy clappy
love that

Cory, if I zilled like you, I think every drummer would want you to join in with him!! You are AMAZING!

to use the cymbals as a percussive lezma in the music in between the singer's phrasing.

This is also what I do. I was trained to accompany by the singer in a blues band I played with for a couple of years. I played the harmonica. The lead guitarist also explained it that you dont step on the other instruments and especially not the vocalist. Hot butter flowing over popcorn is the way he described it.

Some ME drummers seem to prefere you not zill the exact drum pattern they are using but, embroider around the edges.

fotia , thank you so much!
(wipes a tear of joy and acceptance.)

AFAIC, there is only one rule: DON'T PLAY BADLY. In other words, don't play off beat or inconsistently with the rest of the music so that your playing becomes a distraction. Don't clonk along as if you have no concept of what a musical phrase is. Don't play the same rhythm to every song whether it fits or not. Don't make your audience yearn for you to stop!

Originally Posted by Zeevah

I've recently run into the theory that zills are to only be used during parts of the dance and music where you wish to encourage the audience to clap - mostly during faster, percussive sections where the drumming is layered and emphatic.

I've never heard of the audience's clapping being the defining factor. Play where it sounds appropriate, and in a manner that complements what the other musicians are doing. When you put on the finger cymbals, you are making yourself part of the band. You have to play with them, not against them.

Whether to play or not can be different for live and recorded music. Some singers and drummers get offended if the dancer plays on top of "their moment," but obviously, records don't complain. Other in-person musicians don't find it offensive at all. OTOH, it isn't unheard of for natives to resent and find it disrespectful if you play over recordings by a revered singer like Umm Kalthoum. It just depends on the circumstances.

Originally Posted by zamora

we do not zill during floor

That's a matter of preference and style. Tarik plays on and off during his floorwork here, but it's a folkloric style and not an AmCab taqsim:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QuBRLjF26g]YouTube - Tarik Sultan - Shisha Dance[/ame]

or veil.

Schehera, who is as Old Skool as they come, plays while she is working the veil.

if during a taxim, it is a rlrlrlrl edge click

Isn't that only if it is a chiftitelli rhythm? Not all taqsims are chifti, but even so, I should think you would want to fill or play open to match the other musicians.

Originally Posted by ozma

It might be that when people are less secure in their zilling, they'll tend to stick to zilling during the louder, up beat, clappy times where they can feel there is enough noise and action to mute errors of insecure or poor zilling.

The more comfortable I grown with zills the more likely I am to want to find pockets in quieter moments where I can really be musical, or use them to highlight what I'm picking up out of the music and accenting with my body...in addition to the upbeat, happy-clappy moments.

EXACTLY! I think that's where I am. Thank you for explaining it better than I did.

I play zills both as a dancer and as a member of an Arab band with professional Arab musicians and I would say everything Tourbeau said! Thanks Tourbeau for saying it so accurately and elegantly.

Zills for entrances, let the audience know you're comming and most certainly let them you know you're there. If you're doing a swish swish drop egyptian veil hold the zills under the veil and break them out after the veil is gone. If your wrapping the veil come out blazing.

After that it depends on the song, I love the interplay of a ziller and drummer during a drum solo (sadly not yet at that skill level yet) when it's done right it's perfect. I don't zill taxims, taxims are the musicians turn to shine and your turn to show that you can connect with the musician and share the spotlight.

I don't zill during a veil work song such as a rhumba but if I discard my veil early during a chifti I'll zill a little bit with cupped or clam shells zills so as not to over power the song.

9/8 zilling though tough really adds punch to the song and even if you can just hit those last 3 beats hit them hard and do it with gusto.

I don't zill if I'm doing an egyptian Baladi, and I don't zill saidi (mostly because how do you zill with a cane??) I do however zill with a sword if the song calls for it. Sword work with zills tricky but I find if I turn the cymbals to the side just a bit I can grip the sword to movements that are non balancing.

taxim means melody with out rythem

Originally Posted by zamora

taxim means melody with out rythem

Yes and that is why I don't zill, I've seen people do it, and I've seen the musicians look like they wanted to hit the dancer over her head with their instrument when they were finished.

tanya, never had that happen.we use an edge click.we are all diff..a celebration . this is how i was taught.this is what i teach.

Originally Posted by zamora

tanya, never had that happen.we use an edge click.we are all diff..a celebration . this is how i was taught.this is what i teach.

No the zilling I'm talking about was clang clang clang clang over a sad Clarinet taxim. Poor thing didn't know it was time to take the energy down a bit.

I would love to see your technique, I'm intrigued.

And everyone jumped in while I was at work! Cory: yes, I meant that I don't drum during a drum solo unless discused with the drummer. Just to be polite. It's also where I'm most liable to be off the changes (on zill), so it work out better for me. I don't explain things real well. I was trained to wear your zills. Play as appropriate. Or doable.

tanya, hmmm
ok, cup fingers over middle finger zill.muteing it.bring it flat down on the edge of the thumb.click fast when melody rambles...stop when it stops.
rotate finger for thumb zill when you put in new elastic , or you will get a flat edge on the thumbs over time.i play zildjians if that matters.
i like to use a vocal taxim to start with in teaching this.saadoun allbayati is very good for this.he was my teachers drummer at THE FEZ in hollywood ca.

I zill almost always. Not with veil, not in taxims, not with certain Egyptian pieces, almost never with drum solos. Usually with floor work, always with sword, always for entrances and exits, and just about any other time that I didn't exclude.
I feel best when I am playing.

Originally Posted by kahaz

About the only time I wouldn't zill is during a drum solo; that's the drummer/drum's time to show off. I'm an old-school AmCab dancer-enter with zills on and use them whenever practical. I might not play them while using my veil, but they're on my fingers!

My old-school AmCab teacher - Amira Jamal - does teach how to play zills with drum solo, but she explains that it's like a playfulness between drummer and dancer - and I think she said that you might want to tell the drummer you'd like to do that.

I don't play zills during drum solo because I need to really listen to the drum to see what's going on.

Originally Posted by zamora

traditionaly, turkish style picks along with the melody.we zill arabic, with the drum, not melody

Wow, I didn't know this. I guess I zill Turkish and that's why I can't seem to make zills work with Arabic music (a pity because I prefer Arabic music and dancing). I learned to zill with the old-school AmCab classics and have had trouble starting to zill to newer pop music, or sections of Arabic music.

I don't know if I could concentrate on the zills enough to play the rhythm while dancing..the only way I can play them while I dance is to let them go on autopilot and just do..whatever feels right.

As you might have guessed, I don't play zills a lot - in public. I only play them because I _have_ to...and then I use the small zills so that no one can actually hear me playing them. Sad...I know. I need to spend more time with zill DVDs.

check it out - my son is actually scared of my zill playing (of course I only had one zill on - the other hand was holding the camera - and that's not really how I play when I'm doing it for real.)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boYLCDsg87Q]YouTube - Kai and the Musical Instruments[/ame]