Thread: My First Ballet Refugee Student

She was a drop in. I have never had a student with that much (20 years) of ballet under their belt. Talk about dancing with an accent! I am so glad she is not going to be here but for a week or so. I dont know how I would approach someone with that much training in another style to get her to change her approach. She has a few years with 2 UK teachers, so I am not her first rodeo so to speak. What do you guys do with strongly intrenched dancers of different styles? She was moving beautifully but had no "earth" to her at all.

Start them off with Baladi first. Get them use to grounding their feet instead of being on their toes.

Good idea! I must also say, I was a bit intimidated by the fact that I had a 20 year dancer in front of a 6 year teacher.

A a former bun head, my suggestion is to get her into her hips and feet. Also, teach her American style camels to help her separate and engage her upper torso.

I definitely dance with an accent! It was well earned!

{{{HUGS}}

No doubt...I never attempted it. Nothing on this earth will ever get me to look weightless!

It leads me to a separate musing...how would you feel and how do you react to a student who knows more than you. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you live in a small remote town and you wanted to keep up your skills yet had no desire to open a studio or teach. Would you go to a teacher that had fewer skills than you? What if the situation was reversed and you had an exceptional "student" in your class that really should be teaching you. In 6 years I have been the top gun slinger in town. Big fish...little pond. I have never contemplated such a student before now.

My experience is that students with ballet training learn belly dance much faster than the average student.

I don't see how 20 years of ballet training could possibly be worse than 20 yrs of doing no dance, or 20 years of jogging, or 20 yrs of laying on the couch eating bonbons, or 20 years of country and western line dancing.

How many beginners have proper "earthiness" on their first day of class?

Originally Posted by anala

Good idea! I must also say, I was a bit intimidated by the fact that I had a 20 year dancer in front of a 6 year teacher.

I had the exact same thing happen to me-- in comes a new student(and now dear friend), and she had danced ballet professionally for years!
Scared me to pieces when I found out!

But the first thing she said to me was was that she's "a trained dancer,
but not in this" Made me feel much better. She felt very intimidated
by bellydancing!

One of the positives is that she is very open to input. She was so
used to the correction and criticism of ballet, that she wants input
correction, and criticism! She always took it very well. But there are huge adjustments in style and thinking for her, she'd be the first to tell you!

And as for your other musing:
She's taking with my orginal instructor now, and I know she thrives on
getting more and more out of her dance. But she feels that every instructor
has something to offer her---that there's always something she can pick
up from each one.

ssipes...muscle memory is a strong thing indeed. I think there may be some aspects of this dance I actually picked up faster due to lack of muscle tone ...er...memory - and no previuos dance training. I didnt have to unlearn anything (other than bad posture).

for earthy-ness perhaps try this:
give her basic saiidi steps and explain that we jump down instead of jumping up like in ballet. give her heel drops and tell her to imagine making the heel drop go into the subfloor instead of floating on top of the floor lightly. she is trained to float above the stage so she needs to connect with the heavy "down" . also, make her drill stuff in flat feet with bent knees. that will break some of her lower body "pullup" when she works it parallel.

good luck. i bet you can both learn good stuff from each other.

Originally Posted by anala

How would you feel and how do you react to a student who knows more than you. What if the situation was reversed and you had an exceptional "student" in your class that really should be teaching you.

Remember: Although she has extensive ballet training, you know more than she does about belly dancing!!!!!

This is a very, very important point.

Although it's true she possesses some Euro-American dance skills that belly dancers don't, there are lots of things that you, as a teacher of belly dance, are knowledgeable about while she isn't. Things like, how Middle Eastern music differs from Euro-American music. Cultural and historical background. The concept of being grounded rather than floaty. Emotional expression. Middle Eastern rhythms. Finger cymbals. Fluid movement of the torso. Isolation. Hip articulation. Layering. Difference in the role of the limbs (as opposed to the torso) in creating dance. Difference in use of arms to frame moves. Posture.

Obviously, you won't get into all the above stuff at the beginner level. But it's key to remember that you know stuff about Middle Eastern dance that she doesn't, which is why you are the teacher and she is the student!

I used to do ballet for seventeen years while belly dancing as well. I also trained several of my ballerina friends to belly dance for shows that i would put on. To be honest, until the ballerina really gets into it, i would go with her strengths. she is naturally going to be floaty - in the initial choreo you teach her, be sure to include graceful arabesques and pretty arm movements as these are sure to be easy for her to understand.

another thing i have all my students do is to shake everything out. many initially feel silly doing this but later say that it helped them to loosen up. just make her shake the stiffness - limbs flailing about and head and shoulder shakes.

she will also have really rigid posture. her torso will be one piece of her body and her legs the other. she has to learn to separate her hips from her torso. i have found that the "washing machine" hip twists help in this area. it's not a hip slide but more of a swish with one hip swishing forward while the other one is back. this splits the body in two - upper body from hips. another move is butt tucks and releases. this helped me a lot when i was struggling to let go of my balletness while belly dancing.

as others have said, keep in mind that she knows nothing about belly dance. don't try to impress her with your knowledge of ballet terms. use the regular terminology you use with every other student in your classes. just remind her to keep loose - that is the hardest part for any ballerina.

oh also teach her loads of traveling steps...these are sure to come very easily to her and will be a pleasure to watch. it will also give her some confidence that she can learn a new style of dance while still being beautiful and graceful. also, it will be an easier lead in to the other earthier stuff like intense shimmies and hip drops. For hip drops, I have my ballerinas imagine that they are trying to get their hip to kiss their ribs in a fluid, non accented motion. the accenting comes later and easier this way for them.

Silly isn't it? We know BD to be a valid dance/art but when confronted with someone with an extensive backgroudn in 'proper' dance we get some self doubt creeping in.
I've had a couple of students pass my way who have studied ballet. One 'got' bellydance and has great lines the other just couldn't get past the idea of softening her lines (never mind her knees). I've had a couple who had sloppy posture & technique who had been to other BD teachers and I knew within minutes they wouldn't like to be corrected because they'd been dancing for years and no one had said anything to them before! You get all sorts.

Good thread folks.

I think this is the human condition. Indeed some nations assume that other nations are better Educated, or more outdoorsy, or more entrepreneurial etc. etc. I think it's called cultural embarrassment. Maybe we live in the state of "bellydance".

The class she dropped in on was my drill class...so as a matter of "scientific" curiosity, I ran thru a lot of single movement drills in the hour she was with me. There was no 3/4 to speak of, the basic Saidii step was done on an up accent and come to think of it...so was everything else. Amaya once told me that the lack of downward motion was a dead giveaway for a Western accent. I thought I understood what she meant, but I really get it now. Like I said, this lady is just passing thru with the military, but what a great opportunity to observe and analyze.

as far as your second question- the big fish, little pond deal- you should (and from what little I know of you I assume you are!) strive to be the best and most knowledgeable instructor you can be- I take beginning classes both in other dance forms and in BD, and I am there both to learn new stuff and for discipline and refining of 'old stuff'- all I expect from an instructor is that they know they're stuff and be able to share it effectively- I am not judging based on my previous knowledge, and there can be lots of reasons an experienced dancer would go back and take a basics class. I was extremely flattered when one of my former instructors asked if she could take my summer class to 'brush up' on some of the North African dances I was teaching that session- it's not something she dances a lot and she was looking for a refresher.
I plan on taking classes from a friend who has been dancing for less time, teaching about the same amount of time as me- I am having a baby in December and want to use some of my 'recovery time' learning from someone else rather than teaching. There are so many reasons at different stages in life for this kind of 'role reversal' (tho it's not really a reversal if you consider yourself always a student, I guess!)
My first year teaching Spanish at a community adult ed school, I 20 and was terrified when my doctor (GP) signed up for classes! she knew next to nothing about Spanish, but the fact that she was a well educated, experienced professional scared me to pieces! I got over it and we had a blast in class & it turned out fine, but I totally understand the 'but she has experience' fear that clicks on. Thing is, she needed my expertise as much as anyone else in that class, and that's why she chose to be there.

Originally Posted by anala

No doubt...I never attempted it. Nothing on this earth will ever get me to look weightless!

It leads me to a separate musing...how would you feel and how do you react to a student who knows more than you. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you live in a small remote town and you wanted to keep up your skills yet had no desire to open a studio or teach. Would you go to a teacher that had fewer skills than you? What if the situation was reversed and you had an exceptional "student" in your class that really should be teaching you. In 6 years I have been the top gun slinger in town. Big fish...little pond. I have never contemplated such a student before now.

They are still a beginner of a different art form. I've known kit drummers with 20 years experience who still played like a beginner when they tried out a doumbek.

Great thread!

I danced ballet and modern for 15+ years at the semi-Pro level before coming to bellydance. I was known as a "athletic" dancer, which to me as a ballet dancer was not good as it implied weight and heft and forcefulness. Now with Bellydance, I find those traits to be strengths! I think previous dance training usually is a big plus, especially for "core engagement" and being used to and comfortable with manipulating the muscles. (using the brain to make the body move)Also, to Bellydance's credit (and the instructor's), it taught me personally much more about ENGAGING the waist and torso, not just about constantly sucking it in. So like other people have said, an instructor still has a lot to teach a student, experienced in other forms or not. Hopefully, they are there to learn and can put aside their egos. That's important throughout your whole dance experience, pro or not.

Originally Posted by Zobeida

she will also have really rigid posture. her torso will be one piece of her body and her legs the other. she has to learn to separate her hips from her torso. i have found that the "washing machine" hip twists help in this area. it's not a hip slide but more of a swish with one hip swishing forward while the other one is back. this splits the body in two - upper body from hips. another move is butt tucks and releases. this helped me a lot when i was struggling to let go of my balletness while belly dancing.

I hear this characterization frequently (ballet = stiff/rigid) and it is inaccurate. A dancer needs control and strength to maintain the required posture but also must be fluid and light in her movements. If her posture is rigid then she has poor ballet technique.

~~Kimahri

I feel your pain, Anala.

When you teach a traveling step and watch one of these creatures glide weightlessly across the floor like a feather in the breeze, it's such an otherworldly and exciting thing to be close to that you can't help being mesmerized and impressed -- even if what they're doing is totally WRONG, like they were supposed to be doing a debke stomp!!

She came back today. This time I took a chance on a rebuff from a drop in by correcting her toe pointing and heel lifting on a traveling 4/4 shimmy (double bump shimmy). She smiled at me sweetly and told me her other 2 teachers indulged her movement habits. I asked her to indulge me and try it my way, just for a bit. I think she may have liked what she saw in the mirror. I know she can see the difference, and maybe she will revert. I guess if she were a long term student I might have to have a one on one about her expectations and mine as well. So...for discussions sake - lets say she stays and chooses to do things her way. How do you explain this to the other students in the class who may be confused...or do you? What would you do with an eccentric dancer who looks like she moves well, but moves wrong.

"In western dance, this move may be performed like this because the focus is in high center. . . But remember in ME dance, the focus is more in the low center, although we use both, and there fore it looks like this. . . "

Personally, and remember I am a former bun head, I just do not get why someone would choose to learn a new dance form only to dance it like they did their former dance form. Isn't the idea of learning a new dance form to expand our understanding of how our bodies move and our relationship to the music?

anala - maybe I should come teach a workshop about movement for the stage? Which would include the differences?

{{{HUGS}}}

Oh, and BTW - as one who have pretty much perm. turn out, Jillina has never backed down on reminding me that being turned out is NOT appropriate for ME dance. I have worked on it.

Now, here is another question you may want to ask her: what is her motivation to be in class. If it is simply for the workout, I might be a little more inclined to not be nit picky about some of this. I have been in classes with dancers who so should be corrected and aren't. But their motivation for being there is simply to have fun. Too much correction would lead to their being uncomfortable in class and not longer attending. If they are serious about learning this dance form, then it is more important to be specific in your communication and corrections.

{{{HUGS}}}

I am pretty sure it is the fun factor. Now..I must admit, I have gone into a Zumba class for funzies and have taken my dance in there with me. It was an experiment to see how an afro latin flavor would look stirred into the mix. If I went to this class on a regular basis, I feel that I would need to conform.

Originally Posted by anala

She smiled at me sweetly and told me her other 2 teachers indulged her movement habits. I asked her to indulge me and try it my way, just for a bit.

Id say "Hmmm, I dont know what look your other teachers were aiming for because I wasnt inthat classroom with you and didnt see what they were teaching. But Ican tell you thatfor the move Im teaching at the moment you need to correct yourtoe position in this way...."

Evenif shes just there for fun Id correct her. YOu can bet her ballet instructors would correct students who are just htere for fun so why shouldnt we? Indulging her and letting her do it wrong teaches her thatour dance form doesnt reallyhave any standards. That doesnt promote respect for our dance. In fact the opposite, it promotes scorn.

Keep correcting her if she comes back!

letting her do it wrong teaches her thatour dance form doesnt reallyhave any standards. That doesnt promote respect for our dance. In fact the opposite, it promotes scorn

Very good point!

Semi-jokingly, with a big smile and a gleam in the eye... "Mmm hmmmm. And what would your ballet teacher say if I wanted to dance in her class MY way, with flat feet, no turnout, and a low center?"


Our form is less codified than ballet and allows for more individuality because it is, at its heart, a solo dance form rather than a company dance form. But that only means there's a wider *range* of acceptable ways to perform the movements. Outside that range there is an area we call 'wrongness.'

I wonder who her UK teachers were. . .

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Our form is less codified than ballet and allows for more individuality because it is, at its heart, a solo dance form rather than a company dance form. But that only means there's a wider *range* of acceptable ways to perform the movements. Outside that range there is an area we call 'wrongness.'

Words to live by! Seriously, this beautifully sums up something I often really struggle to explain to people. May I quote you early and often?

But of course, darling. I may quote me too.