Thread: When you want to branch out on your own...

Let me preface this by saying I'm a regular Bhuz-ee....in sockpuppet mode. ..g.:

Sorry about that, but I know there are a ton of people from my area on here, and I need advice without anyone knowing who I am.

I have been dancing for a long time with the same teacher and I love her dearly. Now I am ready to branch out on my own and teach and do my own thing. She is very resistant to the idea and has gone as far as emotional abuse to keep me "in line" (for example, she called me one day and told me that because I advertised something I was planning to do without consulting her first, she wanted to "kick my a**"). I try very hard to work with instead of against her but no matter what I do, I am made to feel guilty for wanting to do my own thing. Problem is, I still want to study with her, too, so cutting all ties isn't the option I want to pursue.

If you teach in the same town you learned in...how did you handle this? Those of you who are instructors who have had students who wanted to grow and teach on their own, how did you handle this?

I understand her fear, we have a lot of teachers and the economy is bad so students are few and far between. At the same time, is it fair that I can't pursue my dreams just because moving is not an option, what with family, kids, etc.?

Eh I had a teacher like that, I just quit her classes and moved to another teacher whose opinion I trusted more on professionalism. The second teacher told me honestly I wasn't ready but instead of making me feel bad she gave me a list of things to practice, learn and understand.

She would also email me youtube videos of pro dancers with similar styles, body types and costume tastes. They helped greatly.

If you have a thick skin, seek out a good teacher who will be honest with you but who wants you to succeed.

Also I hope that sock is keeping your hand warm ..g.:

Your username is cracking me up. Can I indulge you in some Pets.com commercials for costume ideas? ..l;,

On the one hand, your teacher might not think you're ready to break out on your own. But as Tanya mentioned, there are more constructive ways to help a student improve - well-worded advice, homework assignments, etc. Threatening to kick somebody's ass is not exactly helpful. If I were you, I'd start shopping around for additional instructors until I found somebody who could hold an honest conversation with me about my career path, and help me achieve my goals. Bear in mind, your teacher may be intimidated by you on some level.

You don't have to cut off your teacher, but you might not find it advantageous to be her BFF, either. I still love my earliest teacher and appreciate everything she's done for me - but our dynamic changed as soon as I began promoting myself and developing my own style. We still hang out once in awhile, but I also know to take most of her "friendly advice" with a grain of salt. Establish some distance, physically and mentally.

I think the best way to deal with this is to try to create your own thing rather than offering a something similar. From your post it seems like you were learning weekly classes in X-ville, and you want to set up weekly classes in X-ville.

Use your imagination - there are so many other things to do. Offer weekly classes in Y-ville, or Z-ville, it might be a bit of a drive away, but then you are not poaching/encroaching.

OR offer something different, that is not currently being offered in X-ville. Ask your teacher what sort of thing; it might not involve you teaching at all, but even haflas or performance platforms, or something *new*.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

I still love my earliest teacher and appreciate everything she's done for me - but our dynamic changed as soon as I began promoting myself and developing my own style.

The dynamic DOES change, for better or for worse. For me, as a teacher, it's tough to watch students go in directions that I feel might not be the most beneficial choice for them in the long run. It's almost like a parent questioning their kids' choices, but still needing to be supportive. It's a tough spot to be in. I have a lot more empathy for my own teachers now.

It is the teacher's job to be straight and upfront with students who decide to go pro, whether as teachers or performers or both. A teacher being hard/stern may just be trying to provide a reality check either about the incipient pro's readiness to go pro, OR to provide a "push" to the new pro to get them to a higher level.

HOWEVER, there is a very clear line between "strict" and "abusive" in my world, and it's the height of douchebaggery for a teacher to threaten/intimidate/berate you in anyway, such as by making the "kick your a** comment (unless it was meant totally in jest).

I want to add, though, that a teacher shouldn't be obligated to support a student going pro if she really feels that student is not ready. HOWEVER, she should be clear about WHY she feels that way, and leave it at that.

I am 1,000% positive that the problem is not with her confidence in my abilities to break out on my own for various reasons that I can't describe here.

Additionally, I already dance professionally in the city I am in, and have for quite a while. The sole problem is with expanding my business, which I already own and operate. It seems that if I want to expand my business, the only option is to ditch my relationship with this person. But, since she has been an invaluable mentor and has offered me innumerable opportunities to grow (as long as it hasn't threatened her pocketbook), that doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

I should perhaps also add that I am not the first person this has happened to with this instructor, and the other people have moved on to teach and operate their own businesses very successfully, but they had to completely sever all ties to do so. Again, that just doesn't seem like the right thing to do to your primary mentor.

I am at a loss.

oops double post

I would try to find another location in the next town if you want to show good faith. However, saying she will really "kick your a$$" is really unprofessional; after all, quality in a teacher will rule out. She has to expect that when she teaches, her students will eventually branch out and teach and/or perform professionally too.

Originally Posted by Fotia

. She has to expect that when she teaches, her students will eventually branch out and teach and/or perform professionally too.

This is very true. Teachers who think none of their students can/should outgrow them are deluded and selfish.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

This is very true. Teachers who think none of their students can/should outgrow them are deluded and selfish.

Don't they realize that when teaches produce stars it is a reflection on them? And this type of thinking is all too common in most places too.

Originally Posted by nisaasaintlouis

It is the teacher's job to be straight and upfront with students who decide to go pro, whether as teachers or performers or both. A teacher being hard/stern may just be trying to provide a reality check either about the incipient pro's readiness to go pro, OR to provide a "push" to the new pro to get them to a higher level.

HOWEVER, there is a very clear line between "strict" and "abusive" in my world, and it's the height of douchebaggery for a teacher to threaten/intimidate/berate you in anyway, such as by making the "kick your a** comment (unless it was meant totally in jest).

This is so true! I don't teach, so I can only imagine how it must feel to watch your students branch off - especially if they're doing things a little differently from what you've taught.

In my case, this teacher was the first to encourage me to go pro. She never has anything bad to say about my dancing. But occasionally I'm taken aback by a piece of advice she'll give me, like that I have too many costumes, or too many photos on my Flickr page. Since those are all such subjective matters, it can come across as petty - even if the intention is anything but.

It can be difficult to decipher the intention behind a piece of advice, and sometimes, the teacher-student dynamic can make it even more complicated. In the OP's case, however, I call douchebaggery ,r:;

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

In the OP's case, however, I call douchebaggery ,r:;

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;, Love it!! So appropriate!

It might be asking an awful lot to think that you remain her student, be on a friendly basis with her, AND be running a business that competes with her nearby.


Think about it... would you expect to be able to keep your day job AND open up a competing company down the street? And have friendly relations with your boss?

Respect and common courtesy dictates a conversation with her about how to co-exist peacefully if you're going to be her new competitor.

I've told this story before, but when a long-term teacher moved to my town a few years ago, she called me and suggested we have lunch. She told me of her intention to teach (didn't ask my permission, or need it) and said that she hoped we'd be able to work together to build synergy. She asked where I was currently teaching and my opinion/reaction to her teaching in various neighboring communities. I was able to give her a rundown on my history in some of those communities, and was even able to tell her about some promising opportunities I knew about but didn't have time to pursue. We ended up producing a hafla together to give both our studnets an opportunity to perform.

OTOH, one of my students (I guess a former student, though she says she'd like to come back someday) has just informed me that she's accepted a teaching position less than 1/2 mile from my studio. There are only two of us teaching in a 3-county radius... if I'd known of her interest in teaching I could have pointed her to several places that I KNOW want teachers that would probably have led to much greater opprotunities for her. This is someone who knows I'm a single mom supporting my family through my teaching -- she's married, no kids, and has a full-time day job. She tells me she wants us to still be friends -- would a friend do something that might jeopardize your ability to feed your children?

I don't mean to vent about my own situation -- I just want to point out that, from the teacher's point of view, there are right and wrong ways to compete for students. You don't need anyone's permission to teach. But if you really want to maintain a friendly relationship or even remain in her classes, a little respect in the form of a long talk about how to compete effectively in the same market without destroying each other is necessary.

Good points, Lauren. Since I've never had any desire to teach, I didn't think of these things but seeing as how it is your bread and butter, I can see the validity in what you are saying.

Probably starting up in another town would be best. After all, when we do employment contracts part of the contract does state that when the employee leaves, they can't take company secrets and use them for a few years or have to open up a new shop so many miles away.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

This is someone who knows I'm a single mom supporting my family through my teaching -- she's married, no kids, and has a full-time day job. She tells me she wants us to still be friends -- would a friend do something that might jeopardize your ability to feed your children?

I both agree and disagree with you Lauren. For business reasons it is best for the students to not set up so close that they are poaching. Everyone looses, including people further afield who would like lesson closer to them. I disagree because you can't assess who is more entitled to the work from their situations. At the same time I understand your frustrations, as most people who offer to work for free or low fees in my town can do so because they support themselves through other full time work.

Nisaa's point about students going off in directions we can see are bad for them -- or worse, doing things that we believe can hurt the reputation of our dance -- is another whole can of beans.

Things are magnified in my case because I choose to teach full time, but even for people who are teaching/performing as a sideline, it's still a business, even if it's as small as teaching a single class. Starting up a business that competes for the same potential clients and expecting to stay best buds is one of the weirder expectations in the bellydance world, to my mind. Acknowledging the weirdness AND the competition and figuring out how to be coopetitors is the only way to stay friends (and even then it's not guaranteed, of course, and requires some bending on everyone's part)

I understand all the points made by Lauren.

Here is my problem. I have sat down & talked with her already. So far the only scenario I have been offered is one in which she is receiving some money from my classes. There are locations in town where she has chosen not to teach, but she has objected to me accepting to teach because it would compete for her students.

Leaving the city is not an option because of my schedule and my family.

I have a day job myself. She plays on that to call me selfish for wanting to also pursue teaching. However, my question is, again, how fair is it that I must give up my dream in favor of her dream? My gosh, I just want to teach ONE class. Not 5, not 10. I keep trying to help her understand that I would like to teach a class in a location where she doesn't currently have any student base, and then send those students to her as they advance, because there is no question that she has far more experience to offer than I do. However, she gets irrationally angry about that.

Maybe I am in too much of a hurry, I don't know. Frankly, this type of stuff makes me want to just give up all together. Okay. I'm going to go delete my sockpuppet now. Thanks for listening & for the sage advice. I do very much appreciate it, even if I seem to have a "nothing will work" attitude. I just feel "Beat down by da man"

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

I both agree and disagree with you Lauren. For business reasons it is best for the students to not set up so close that they are poaching. Everyone looses, including people further afield who would like lesson closer to them. I disagree because you can't assess who is more entitled to the work from their situations. At the same time I understand your frustrations, as most people who offer to work for free or low fees in my town can do so because they support themselves through other full time work.

Oops we were posting at the same time.

No, I realized when I was writing that how it might be misread in exaclty that way. I didn't mean to imply that I'm more entitled to have the students because I'm a full time teacher. That's MY choice -- and may be a stupid one -- no one owes me anything because of it.

I just mean that her actions in this particular case are belying her claim to be my *friend.* She's fully entitled to be my competitor, to be a teacher, etc. But saying she's my *friend* is suspect.

Originally Posted by sockpuppet2

Here is my problem. I have sat down & talked with her already. So far the only scenario I have been offered is one in which she is receiving some money from my classes.

OK now that is more than a little nutty...

There are locations in town where she has chosen not to teach, but she has objected to me accepting to teach because it would compete for her students.

While I understand the feeling of "Oh, crap, YET ANOTHER competitor when I am already struggling to pay the rent," this IS business, just like any other. Competition is a reality. Your teacher needs to accept it. If she is offering a quality product (good, challenging classes), she will be OK in the long run.

I think that to assume a student will never break off to teach is foolish. I am not saying anyone is thinking that way. But it is an "assumed risk" a teacher takes; however, to be best friends after, well, cutting into the profits is kinda weird. Becoming a "competitor" you also have to realize that the friendship is not going to be the same because now you are talking dollars and cents, and that does put a different spin on it. Not to mention that if you really are not ready to teach the right way, saying you are a former student may make her look bad.

But I still don't want someone to "kick my a$$." What is this, high school?

Originally Posted by sockpuppet2

I understand all the points made by Lauren.

Here is my problem. I have sat down & talked with her already. So far the only scenario I have been offered is one in which she is receiving some money from my classes. There are locations in town where she has chosen not to teach, but she has objected to me accepting to teach because it would compete for her students.

Leaving the city is not an option because of my schedule and my family.

I have a day job myself. She plays on that to call me selfish for wanting to also pursue teaching. However, my question is, again, how fair is it that I must give up my dream in favor of her dream? My gosh, I just want to teach ONE class. Not 5, not 10. I keep trying to help her understand that I would like to teach a class in a location where she doesn't currently have any student base, and then send those students to her as they advance, because there is no question that she has far more experience to offer than I do. However, she gets irrationally angry about that.

Maybe I am in too much of a hurry, I don't know. Frankly, this type of stuff makes me want to just give up all together. Okay. I'm going to go delete my sockpuppet now. Thanks for listening & for the sage advice. I do very much appreciate it, even if I seem to have a "nothing will work" attitude. I just feel "Beat down by da man"

I understand her attempts to set you up as a satellite class, but if that's not what you want to do then you're absolutely free to start your own class. You don't have to subjugate your dream for anyone. Teach your class.

But it's not fair to expect her to just happily give up potential students to someone who continues to take her class and call her a friend either. Some teachers are able to do this, though there's nearly always an undercurrent of resentment and an eventual blowout.

According to your initial post, it doesn't sound like there are enough students to go around. You are well aware that starting up your class might destroy hers, and if her classes are her livelihood then you can't knowingly make that choice AND expect to have her friendship/goodwill.

However, if you start your class and stick with it and do well, and if the economy recovers quickly and you're both able to thrive -- and if no bridges are burned in the meantime -- you may eventually be able to speak with her again and renegotiate your relationship as an equal. I know of situations where this has happened, but it usually takes 5 years or so.

I see it this way. If you live in a town that already has a hotel and you're determined to open a second one, even though you know the town can't support two -- then you're free to do that. But you can't also stay friends with the owner of the other hotel, or hang out there. It's not realistic.

I've just realized that without tone of voice (or smiley's which I often forget to use) that it may sound like I think you're wrong to want to teach in the same town as your teacher.

I really, really, don't think that. I'm a total capitalist, I think that competition is good for everyone involved and the customers should have a choice. I also believe that, while 10 teachers might be too much in a market, two is never too much.

All I meant to say is that your teacher is going to feel threatened by it, and there's not much you can do to make that better because she IS threatened, the threat is real. Although if her business is hanging by that much of a thread, she was maybe going to lose it soon in this economy anyway.

All you can do is offer her the respect of discussing your plans with her and listening to her concerns. Which you've done. If there are places where you plans can nicely accommodate her concerns, great. But I don't think your plans should be *dictated* by her concerns. You've shown that you value her input and that you want to work together amicably. That's really all that's within your power.

If you want to start a class, then you start one. But that probably means that you won't be on as friendly a basis with your former teacher as you'd like.

Again, there's hope that over time, if she can be mature enough not to do anything destructive/stupid, and if you can be mature enough to be patient while she grapples with her feelings on the matter, you might come together again at some time in the future.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It might be asking an awful lot to think that you remain her student, be on a friendly basis with her, AND be running a business that competes with her nearby.


Think about it... would you expect to be able to keep your day job AND open up a competing company down the street? And have friendly relations with your boss?

Respect and common courtesy dictates a conversation with her about how to co-exist peacefully if you're going to be her new competitor.
... But if you really want to maintain a friendly relationship or even remain in her classes, a little respect in the form of a long talk about how to compete effectively in the same market without destroying each other is necessary.

I agree with these points. I recognize that you have initiated this conversation already Sockpuppet and think you are doing the right thing. Now your challenge is to do what is right for you (branch out on your own) and continue to maintain a position that healthy & respectful competition, collaboration, and co-operation are your hopes for the relationship going forward.
A few years ago my dance company made some business decisions that essentially forced some members to make a decision about staying with the company or branching out. They chose to branch out. I was sad, they were sad, the other company members were sad about the decision and it was definitely a bittersweet parting. There were hurt feelings and bruised egos (myself included). Although we remained cordial and friendly on the outside, the hurt feelings lingered.
It took about 2 years before those really started to subside and we started to truly co-operate & collaborate together again.
My point is...give it time, some wounds will heal.

i think if your priority is staying friends with your teacher and staying her student, you will somehow need to follow her "rules", and set up class in a different town, or as her satellite. if you just want to maintain a professional relationship with her, as one pro to another, you have other options, you can set up your own class nearby. but it will mean a different kind of working relationship and one you will have to work at all over again. and you probably wont be her student anymore. if you truly want to do your own thing, that's what you'll have to do. it seems to me that in some way you are still seeking her permission and approval.

will kick your @$$? Laying guilt trips on you for pursuing your dream? Oh ho ho ho NO that doesn't work at all and I wouldn't put up with that %$#@ for one red hot minute, great mentor or no. that's way out of line and you said she has a history of doing this with others, so I think ultimately you are going to have to cut ties with this instructor, despite any efforts you make to keep the peace. Yes it is hard especially if you've come to count on this persons support but you cant have your cake and eat it too so to speak. Follow your heart and good luck, never let anyone make you feel bad about pursuing your dreams and goals :-)

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

i think if your priority is staying friends with your teacher and staying her student, you will somehow need to follow her "rules", and set up class in a different town, or as her satellite. if you just want to maintain a professional relationship with her, as one pro to another, you have other options, you can set up your own class nearby. but it will mean a different kind of working relationship and one you will have to work at all over again. and you probably wont be her student anymore. if you truly want to do your own thing, that's what you'll have to do. it seems to me that in some way you are still seeking her permission and approval.

This!

Exactly right Artemisia.

What is your priority sockpuppet, friendship with this woman or pursuing your own dreams? That should guide what decision you make.

It's your choice not hers. Be careful about letting her manipulate you for her own interests, because Your interests are not necessarily her priority.

Why does this happen so very often? I can't talk much about it but I'd think that in a small market, starting another class would be very bad for her business. I see where she's coming from but the intimidation is totally out of line. I think if you really want to teach you have to be ready to cut all ties and hope time will heal the rift. This happens to dancers all the time.

I can never understand this scenario. Dancer A is the teacher of dancer B. They are friends. Dance B sets up lessons in the same mould and near to Dancer A, so that students migrate back and forth between the classes.

So starts a lifetime of resentment.

Seriously, there are so many other things to do, that would enhance and grow the community in your area. Why just set up doing the exact same thing as someone else, someone else who you learned everything you currently know from?

Not only is it questionable from an ethical perspective, will also destroy your friendship, and your quite possibly your reputation (as people gossip)- it's often bad business for any type of business.

Butcher A teachers Butcher B, Butcher B sets up a shop very near Butcher A. Same thing. Imagine Butcher B just used her imagination. Set up a wholesale supply service, or gourmet home deliveries. The possibilities are endless, plus it will grow the meat eating community in general, and offer possibilities for collaboration between Butchers A and B.

Apologies to any vegetarians reading this post :-)

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

pursuing your own dreams?

I agree. Pursue your *own* dreams.

It's funny, that after all my own agonising experience of being hated for no reason by local teachers and suffering under the weight of their Godfather-style expectations of respect, that I should come down on a teacher's side in this scenario. But I'm afraid I do.

There's no doubt she's acting like an a$$ in threatening and belittling you, and there's absolutely no excuse for that. It is most assuredly Not OK. ,m:: However... I definitely see where her hurt is coming from.

You've taken classes for years with this one teacher, am I right? So what do you have to offer students that isn't basically, in effect, hers? It must seem to her that you've decided to take the toolkit she gave you, and go teach down the street using the tools she worked for years to create. You even want to still be her student while you're teaching a rival class down the street!

If you'd been learning for years with a variety of teachers, worked on private lessons (with more that just your current teachers), gone to workshops, then YES you have your own legitimate skills portfolio that you can use to complement the skills and classes already offered in your area.

Ask yourself - what's Your Dream about? Why do you want to go into teaching? Do you feel you have something to offer that is lacking for the student pool in your area? Or are you just after the prestige of being a teacher? Being a teacher has massive moments of suckage, I'm afraid - it's certainly not all glamour and wide-eyed students full of dewy-eyed respect of your awesomeness. ,r:; It's bloody hard graft and sleepless night wondering how you can do better by your students - or it should be. Also, just in case that might be a motivational factor for you - the money isn't particularly great, especially not if you're just teaching one dance class a week in an oversaturated market.

Caroline is very right - there's more than one way to branch out in your dance career. What about showcases/haflas/performance opportunities for these students? What about banding up with your current teacher and/or others and sponsoring a visiting teacher? Why limit yourself to only one path to Success As A Dancer?

Sorry if I sound harsh (usually do lately!), but you do need to take a good long look at what you're setting out to do. There's no way you can maintain your friendship with your current teacher and set yourself up in a competing business, so you will *have* to prepare yourself for that rather brutal competition or do what you can to ameliorate the "slap in the face" effect for your current teacher by amending your dream a little (at least for now: i.e. building your skills and learning from other teachers so that A: she doesn't feel she owns you and B: you're not basically parroting or pirating her teaching material). At the end of the day, the choice is absolutely yours... as well as the consequences.