Thread: Want To Be Supportive But Not Used

Hi Everyone,
I have been supportive over the years towards a student when she asked me to let her shadow me on gigs and when she wanted to borrow from my personal collection of bellydance books and DVD's.
However, now that she is teaching (directly in my neighbourhood) and beginning to get professional gigs (also in my neighbourhood), I'm feeling a little awkward being asked to loan her my DVD's now that she is using them to develop her own classes, asked for the contact info of my hipscarf wholesale sources (it took years of hit & miss to figure out a trustworthy source), asked if I will give the jobs I can't take to her instead of to my longtime dance partner, asked for the loan of my $200 dance sword for an upcoming job.
I feel like she's at the point where she ought to be buying her own teaching materials and performance props, and finding her own sources.
I'm beginning to feel taken advantage of and then on the other hand, I'm worried that I'm being small and mingy.
What would you do in my situation?
Thanks so much for your help.

"Sweetie, I'm so happy with how you've grown as a dancer over the years, and I'm really proud that you've reached the point of being ready to become a professional in your own right! And now that you've reached that point, it's time for the next phase in your development - that of learning the ins and outs of managing a business. Now that you're making money as a dancer, it's also time for you to take on accountability for the expenses that go into running your business. This includes purchasing your own performance props and educational materials (videos). Also, the time has come for you to start doing your own research into vendors such as your hip scarf provider. It's all part of the process of maturing as a working professional, and I wouldn't want to inhibit your growth by continuing to do all these things for you."

I LOVE YOU SHIRA!!!! (Who doesn't?!)

Originally Posted by *Shira*

"Sweetie, I'm so happy with how you've grown as a dancer over the years, and I'm really proud that you've reached the point of being ready to become a professional in your own right! And now that you've reached that point, it's time for the next phase in your development - that of learning the ins and outs of managing a business. Now that you're making money as a dancer, it's also time for you to take on accountability for the expenses that go into running your business. This includes purchasing your own performance props and educational materials (videos). Also, the time has come for you to start doing your own research into vendors such as your hip scarf provider. It's all part of the process of maturing as a working professional, and I wouldn't want to inhibit your growth by continuing to do all these things for you."

..g.:

Deborah

Originally Posted by fairydancer

I LOVE YOU SHIRA!!!! (Who doesn't?!)

I'm a fan

Originally Posted by *Shira*

"Sweetie, I'm so happy with how you've grown as a dancer over the years, and I'm really proud that you've reached the point of being ready to become a professional in your own right! And now that you've reached that point, it's time for the next phase in your development - that of learning the ins and outs of managing a business. Now that you're making money as a dancer, it's also time for you to take on accountability for the expenses that go into running your business. This includes purchasing your own performance props and educational materials (videos). Also, the time has come for you to start doing your own research into vendors such as your hip scarf provider. It's all part of the process of maturing as a working professional, and I wouldn't want to inhibit your growth by continuing to do all these things for you."

I suppose it would totally ruin the effect if you added "bwahahahahah"?

with Shira around, what do you need us for?
definitely time for little chick to leave the nest- & Shira worded it so well! I occasionally loan things out, but it is more along the lines of "I ordered my sword 3 weeks ago & it's not here yet- help!" or loaning the cane/finger cymbals/etc. I have in my car when someone has requested the featured dancer add something like that at the last minute, or someone's elastic broke- things you just can't always plan for. But if someone is expecting to go pro, they do need to act like it!

Originally Posted by Taj

I suppose it would totally ruin the effect if you added "bwahahahahah"?

I think that's a completely appropriate way to cap off such an eloquently stated message of goodwill! ..l;,

..g.:..g.:..g.:

I am in complete agreement about a student who wants to go pro in regard to expecting her to develop her own teaching materials and purchase her own videos, music, or props, but I don't see sharing the name of a vendor in the same category, unless you run a boutique and believe that her purchasing bulk orders of hipscarves would diminish your business. If you aren't hoping to add her students to your own customer base, and she isn't hoping to draw your students to buy from her (in other words, if you're each buying lots of hipscarves as a convenience to your own students), why wouldn't you be able to share your source with her as a professional courtesy? Business people often make professional referrals and recommend resources to each other. To me, this is like someone asking where I bought my new coat or if I know of a good place to buy bulk cooking oil to deep fry a turkey--it's no skin off of my nose to be magnanimous. Particularly if you are asking about something that is difficult to obtain or that one might be likely to lose money on a misstep, I think it is a courtesy as her teacher to guide her.

The incessant borrowing of items should stop, and arguably, probably should not have continued as long as it did. (IMHO, when you declare your intention to be serious student, and particularly when you decide you want to work toward teaching or professional performing, it is time to start buying your own stuff.) On the other hand, your hesitation to give her your vendor source because it was a struggle for you to find someone you trusted comes across a bit like you feel it should be a necessary part of her training to make her repeat some of your mistakes, which I assume is not your intention. Of course, if you feel she is a constant drone of requests for easy-to-find information and this is yet another question motivated by a lack of initiative to do her own research then, yes, "Why do you ask? Is your Google broken?" is an appropriate response.

I totally agree with 99.9 percent of what's been said here, but let me play devil's advocate on one point--the hip scarf vendor.

I can see where, taken with the rest of the "request package" this dancer has presented, asking about your preferred vendors could be annoying. BUT we all come here and ask the same kinds of questions all the time. I can't imagine that it would be inappropriate to ask around in the local community for reputable vendors. If you're already close to a seasoned pro, of course that would be the first person you'd go to. There's a lot to be said for earning your stripes as a pro, but I don't think that has to include being ripped off by crappy vendors when it isn't necessary.

(I hope I don't have to pull out the flame-proof bedlah for that...it's at the cleaners!)

Looks like Tourbeau posted the same thing while I was typing. :)

I vote for charging her. Consulting fees for the costume and music info, commission on the gigs, rental on the props with a damage deposit. You seem to want her to do well, go you. But what you know is worth money. So - draw up a price list! Who knows, you may have other customers lining up shortly!

Originally Posted by GenevieveOfAtlanta

I totally agree with 99.9 percent of what's been said here, but let me play devil's advocate on one point--the hip scarf vendor.

In a perfect world, sharing sources would be cool. But if the OP sells hip scarves for $35 each, her friend might price them lower ($$29 each, or 2/$60), such that she draws shoppers from the OP to her (especially if she starts vending at local haflas/events). The newbie sells more scarves, has faster turnover, and the difference in the freshness/variety of the stock means that shoppers come to her first.

If the newbie plays fair, it won't be an issue. But when it comes to money issues...what has she given back to the OP? If she's not already lending her own items to the OP/giving thank you gifts/even continuing with current classes, why expect her to suddenly become more concerned with the OP's cash flow than her own?

Originally Posted by maurazebra

I vote for charging her. Consulting fees for the costume and music info, commission on the gigs, rental on the props with a damage deposit. You seem to want her to do well, go you. But what you know is worth money. So - draw up a price list! Who knows, you may have other customers lining up shortly!

Oooh, I like this!

I can definitely see your point, da Sage. I think there's a fine line. I guess it just struck me as odd that we all come here to ask about exactly that kind of thing (in fact I think there was a recent thread on where to buy hip scarves in bulk!), and people don't seem to have a problem with that. But I can also see where the undercutting worries might come in as well.

Originally Posted by da Sage

If the newbie plays fair, it won't be an issue. But when it comes to money issues...what has she given back to the OP? If she's not already lending her own items to the OP/giving thank you gifts/even continuing with current classes, why expect her to suddenly become more concerned with the OP's cash flow than her own?

Not to get all philosophical and off topic, but do we ever give back to our teachers enough? Certainly some dancers go on to do their mentors proud and really "give back" with a substantial contribution, but in reality, the majority of us are pretty much content not to embarrass our teachers and interfere with what they're trying to do. Under typical circumstances (that is, a local pro teaching classes), a good teacher will turn out students who go on to be successful and cut into the local market in return. If you train 5 students well, and they go on to be ethical businesspeople, imaginative and skilled artists, and wonderful teachers in their own right, and then they carry your traditions and lessons on to 5 students of their own, your legacy is that 30 people honor your name as they are competing for your customers. Unlike other teaching fields, where an English teacher could produce a student who wrote a great novel that millions enjoyed or a Chemistry teacher who could have inspired a student to go on and synthesize a lifesaving drug, our art-for-art's sake impact means that good teachers at the local level are essentially penalized for being good--at least until later in their careers, when they can derive much of their commercial viability from seniority of reputation. I think this is why so many teachers are ambivalent and sometimes hold back when teaching, and why teachers who are very open and don't hold back are so rare and cherished.

Regarding the vendor inquiry:

In my mind, there's a big difference between sharing information and 'best practices' with others who are in your field in other locations and asking your competitor next door for their vendor info.

A wedding photographer, for instance, might belong to several national or international associations, message boards, etc. where she'd share info on everything from lenses to marketing to posing clients, latest trends, etc. That's what those things are for. Other local photogs might be part of those same networks and benefit from the same info she does, that's just fairness.

But if the *other* wedding photographer in her town -- who competes for the same clients -- came in her door asking her to share all her biz secrets. that's crossing a line.

It also makes a difference that it's a one-way flow of information.

Two friends in the same field who live in different markets can share information and advice freely back and forth. But sharing info directly with your competitors is awkward and, well, not too bright, really.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Regarding the vendor inquiry:

In my mind, there's a big difference between sharing information and 'best practices' with others who are in your field in other locations and asking your competitor next door for their vendor info.

A wedding photographer, for instance, might belong to several national or international associations, message boards, etc. where she'd share info on everything from lenses to marketing to posing clients, latest trends, etc. That's what those things are for. Other local photogs might be part of those same networks and benefit from the same info she does, that's just fairness.

But if the *other* wedding photographer in her town -- who competes for the same clients -- came in her door asking her to share all her biz secrets. that's crossing a line.

It also makes a difference that it's a one-way flow of information.

Two friends in the same field who live in different markets can share information and advice freely back and forth. But sharing info directly with your competitors is awkward and, well, not too bright, really.

Thanks for stating what I was struggling to put into words- I have a friend who is also a vendor, and even tho we are friends, I don't ask her for her sources at this point. I do my own legwork & honestly am trying to find something a little different to fill a different niche. I ask others who are not my direct competition, I'll even ask her if she wants to go in on something that would be mutually beneficial, but asking her where she gets her hip scarves (same style I used to sell but for half the price!) just feels wrong- even tho I've known her for almost 20 years & she has been a great support & inspiration for me. She can provide the same service for less, it's time for me to find something else I can offer. Now, if said former student above wanted to go in on an order together so you can both save on shipping or bump up to a better pricing bracket, that would be mutually beneficial and I could see that working for both of you.

How about charging a coaching fee for some of the things being requested?

I agree with Tourbaue.

Perhaps she views you more of a mentor and friend and doesn't see her requests as off putting?

Also, I think that if you're a good teacher with a solid reputation, you don't have to worry about anything. I mean the good teachers in my area get students coming no matter what because no matter who is out there, people still want to study with them.

Also, even though I'm teaching on my own, when my students what to go on, it's my own teachers I adore that I refer to them to.

Maybe she will push business back your way as well.

Ask yourself this...

IS she willing to replace items that are broken, , stained or ruined whilst she has them in her care?

If she can't afford her own props and cossies...she sure as hell can't afford to replace yours!

What Shira said... But share the vender. The vender will love you sending buisness!

Darn, I wish I'd said this word-for-word several times in the past. ,f::

Originally Posted by *Shira*

"Sweetie, I'm so happy with how you've grown as a dancer over the years, and I'm really proud that you've reached the point of being ready to become a professional in your own right! And now that you've reached that point, it's time for the next phase in your development - that of learning the ins and outs of managing a business. Now that you're making money as a dancer, it's also time for you to take on accountability for the expenses that go into running your business. This includes purchasing your own performance props and educational materials (videos). Also, the time has come for you to start doing your own research into vendors such as your hip scarf provider. It's all part of the process of maturing as a working professional, and I wouldn't want to inhibit your growth by continuing to do all these things for you."

Knowledge or material items shared from the generosity of the heart & well wishes are grand. However business is business.

When you earn money from products purchased from your vendor, then the vendor's name is concealed. Your friend should either purchase the desired supplies from you or seek a vendor of her own.

It is business for profit (unless you are a non profit organization). Mentoring is fine, that is why people attend college. However, I don't see Microsoft sharing with Apple or Coca-Cola giving their formula to Pepsi. There is a difference between business and friendship. Try not to mix the two, the results are usually disasterous.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

"Sweetie, I'm so happy with how you've grown as a dancer over the years, and I'm really proud that you've reached the point of being ready to become a professional in your own right! And now that you've reached that point, it's time for the next phase in your development - that of learning the ins and outs of managing a business. Now that you're making money as a dancer, it's also time for you to take on accountability for the expenses that go into running your business. This includes purchasing your own performance props and educational materials (videos). Also, the time has come for you to start doing your own research into vendors such as your hip scarf provider. It's all part of the process of maturing as a working professional, and I wouldn't want to inhibit your growth by continuing to do all these things for you."

hahaha... couldn't have said it better myself. Don't you just love being able to give out the love and light whilst using the toe of your boot to teach a valuable lesson in karma.