Thread: Are we our own Enemy?!?!

Just had a thought last night and would like to hear people's opinions. There are LOADS of belly dance classes in my area. And there are also 3 standard levels; beginner, intermediate, and advanced. Sometimes beginner students get put into intermediate classes because there just aren't enough ppl to fill the session, and sometimes beginner/intermediate are placed in an advanced class. I understand why it happens from the instructors perspective in terms of finances and filling up a class, etc, but I wonder...

if a student isn't really advanced and is in that class, aren't we giving false impressions to that student? And doesn't this affect the mind frame of the student to think that if he/she is advanced, they are good enough to teach other people, and good enough to perform? Are we shooting ourselves in the foot and creating our own breed of undercutters?

I've taken other styles of dance classes where the levels were broken up into Beginner 1,2,3, Intermediate 1,2,3 and Advanced 1,2,3. If we all did this and allowed the student to advance when they were READY wouldn't this help (just a little) some of our frustrating situations? And wouldn't this help to ensure that the quality of dance in the area is at a higher standard? Or is it too late? ..c::

Staying tuned to this thread...I wanna hear some other feedback, too.

I also think a big part of the problem is that not all teachers are exactly qualified to teach past the beginner level. But everybody wants to teach these days, and pretty much anybody who can execute a hip circle can set up shop...,f::

Originally Posted by AngelicaDances

Just had a thought last night and would like to hear people's opinions. There are LOADS of belly dance classes in my area. And there are also 3 standard levels; beginner, intermediate, and advanced. Sometimes beginner students get put into intermediate classes because there just aren't enough ppl to fill the session, and sometimes beginner/intermediate are placed in an advanced class. I understand why it happens from the instructors perspective in terms of finances and filling up a class, etc, but I wonder...

if a student isn't really advanced and is in that class, aren't we giving false impressions to that student? And doesn't this affect the mind frame of the student to think that if he/she is advanced, they are good enough to teach other people, and good enough to perform? Are we shooting ourselves in the foot and creating our own breed of undercutters?

I've taken other styles of dance classes where the levels were broken up into Beginner 1,2,3, Intermediate 1,2,3 and Advanced 1,2,3. If we all did this and allowed the student to advance when they were READY wouldn't this help (just a little) some of our frustrating situations? And wouldn't this help to ensure that the quality of dance in the area is at a higher standard? Or is it too late? ..c::

I think too often we forget that the majority of women/men who go to bellydance classes are not looking to become professional dancers. Instead they want a fun thing to do that is healthy and community oriented. I participated in a show this weekend that had some professionals but all sorts of student troupes and soloists. They joy these people got just from getting up there and dancing was inspiring.

I look at adult ballet classes and how they are set up similar to the BD format mentioned above. Many teachers in NYC have professional level classes that you must either audition for or bee good enough to keep up because the teacher doesn't slow down for anyone.

I wouldn't worry too much about how classes are structured, just that they are taught in a way that encourages development and prevents injury.

I can only say this, it bums me out to have beginners in the intermediate/advanced class I'm in. For one, they are always kind of bewildered and two (this is the selfish one, but frankly I'm also paying for the class) the whole class gets slowed down, and I'm specifically attending those classes to get more of a challenge.

Originally Posted by Mahsima

I can only say this, it bums me out to have beginners in the intermediate/advanced class I'm in. For one, they are always kind of bewildered and two (this is the selfish one, but frankly I'm also paying for the class) the whole class gets slowed down, and I'm specifically attending those classes to get more of a challenge.

i second you on this. happened to me once, and i really disliked the situation. selfish it may be, but hey i'm paying to learn, there's a level for beginners adapted to them, i feel like i'm entitled to having a level in which i can learn what i pay for.

also, little comment about the beginner 1, 2, 3, intermediate 1, 2, 3, etc... (where all the levels/classes are slightly different)
i personally like that (a lot!) because it means that, if i want, i can take *several* classes per week, that are more or less my level. and i like to ..g.:

Short answer, yes, but what I've seen looks more like: (1) teachers not wanting to pass judgment on a student's ability and letting the student decide which class she thinks she belongs in instead of having a formal evaluation, audition, or grading process to determine promotion, and (2) indulging students in the false notion that there is a direct correlation between how many years ago you started taking classes and how good you are. There is often a relationship between how long you've been studying and what level you are at, but not always. Particularly in the hobbyist and wannabe pro segments of the dance community, you can find plenty of dancers who have been taking classes for years and dumping all kinds of money on workshops and they're still, in an objective analysis, in the intermediate category (if not occasionally lower). Another variation of this problem is when teachers try to avoid breaking up beginner groups and pass everybody on to the next level, instead of holding some back for remedial training because they don't want to disrupt friendships or embarrass anyone by implying they're not very good. Finally, teachers sometimes encounter deluded but zealous wannabe pros who are so aggressive in their pursuit of stardom that the teacher puts them in a higher-level class than they might actually warrant just to shut them up--if not to rein them in, figuring that maybe they can get through to them and steer them in the right direction along the way.

if a student isn't really advanced and is in that class, aren't we giving false impressions to that student?...

Yes, but not every teacher worries about this. Some simply want full classrooms. Some figure the market sorts itself out in the long run, and either students will figure out where they really stand or they'll eventually become worthy of the level they think they deserve now (sink or swim). Some teachers don't want to be the "bad guy" by giving students too much criticism or honesty. And some teachers just don't have the training to understand what they're supposed to be doing in front of a classroom in the first place.

Are we shooting ourselves in the foot and creating our own breed of undercutters?

Yes, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Having better teacher qualifications and better student feedback during the educational process would definitely improve things, but it would never entirely fix the problem. Because we don't have a large-scale, formal employment system for dancers that acts as a filter to sort the qualified from the quacks, anyone who thinks they can belly dance as a pro can't be stopped from trying, and unfortunately, the worst offenders seem to be born with a gene that makes them immune to anything but compliments.

To the degree that teachers don't give much, if any, feedback to their students, no matter what class system there is, will not fix any problems. I was never, ever told by a teacher that it is time to advance to another class - if I had waited for that, I'd still be taking beginner classes.

I think that a lack of guidance is a big problem - if there is no clear path and no thing like student troupes, people will take off on their own to teach and perform - some too late, mamy too early.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

I wouldn't worry too much about how classes are structured, just that they are taught in a way that encourages development and prevents injury.

That would be the ideal, however having tried over 20 different teachers in the last few years (and many new ones have emerged since I found "the one" ..g.:) I realize that more than half were not qualified to teach because they didn't have enough training and experience, and therefore did not have the skill to teach proper technique in order to prevent injury. If the teaching system was organized in a way similar to Arabesque Dance Company, I think a lot of these dancers would have a reality check and realize that it takes a lot of hard work and dedication to take dance to a performance/professional/artistic/teaching level.

And if students are doing this as a hobby, there is no shame in staying in a beginners course (level 1,2,3, ) for a while. I know a great teacher here used to organize a class where people could just come to dance and not focus TOO much on technique. It was the chance to meet other women and just have FUN! I think this type of class might reflect more of what this type of dancer is looking for without interferring with the level of a more serious dancer.

I regard levels very loosely. But I do not dumb down class content to the lowest denominator, I have a tendency to do the opposite.

I think as long is nobody is hurting themselves, and people understand the distinction between any level student and being professional performer, I think it isn't that big a deal if one or two people get into a class a little above themselves.

Tourbeau, I agree and have seen everything you've said. The class that I was taking that was broken up into segments was Flamenco. I felt like the dancers took the class very seriously because they WANTED to advance to the next level. The teacher let everyone know when she thought they were ready and it was an honor and accomplishment when they made it.
If students don't have these challenges and this type of guidence, how will they know if they're ready if thats what they're looking for? And if its so easy to move up a level, than the dance form must be easy right? (*sarcasm* ..g.: ) This is a huge statement, but I think this approach diminishes the respect for this dance from the student's perspective and the general public.

I hope that I'm not insulting anyone. I've been performing publicly for the last year and a half and have been questioning and trying to understand the problems that keep coming up. What I'm really trying to say is that I support a higher level of Middle Eastern Dance training and wish there was a system available in every city for everyone

Originally Posted by shems

I regard levels very loosely. But I do not dumb down class content to the lowest denominator, I have a tendency to do the opposite.

I think as long is nobody is hurting themselves, and people understand the distinction between any level student and being professional performer, I think it isn't that big a deal if one or two people get into a class a little above themselves.

I can agree with that. If anything it will most likely push the student to work harder if he/she is really motivated. I guess there are a few sides to this coin.

Maybe the student should do the level they're at in conjunction with a higher level? Afterall, if they're really serious about stepping up their game it is in their best interest to cover as much material as they can.

In an other way, breaking up beginners, intermediate and advanced in 1-2-3 makes 9 classes in one week for the teacher and splits the students so if you had a goup of 13 beginners, 10 intermediates and 15 advanced...
You can end up with :
in beginner 1: 8 and in theses there is 4 friends who inscribed themselves together, one of them is agile, knows music and another one ain't aware of her body but if one drops out, all 4 will go...
beginner 2: 1 person who is the only one that continued after her first session, all her group dropped out
beginner 3: 4 persons

and something similar in in other splitted levels some classes becomes empty

the teacher has to rent (let's say all classes are 1 hour each)
9 hours of studio a week,and you know how it works: primetime is 7to9 monday to wednesday, because thursday is shopping day and every students that works in a store, hairsalon, etc. is working... same as friday... week-end.. we have family obligations and so on...
meaning that primetime is happening only for 6 classes week...
So if you start to split too much... some classes would be cancelled because they'd be empty, but the studio is rented for that hour...

Besides that. the teacher has to prepare 9 different class program and 9 choreographies... for the same total amount of people.

At a certain point, maybe private classes is a better option when you can't get your own level, I've been in advanced classes for a few years and because some people were there for 13 years and still not my level I couldn't improve so I switched to private... and it was a school where levels were splitted :beginners 1-2-3-4 intermediate 1-2-3-4, advanced, specialty/fusions, kids 7to11, kids 12 to 18

I my far area small town, a danceschool who hired me said to open a class, we need 6 students and we want a class of adult beginner and a class of kids beginners, so I said OK for kids class but they have to be 8years old and up... when inscriptions happend, I had 3 adults + 1 mother and 3 childs (5-7and 10 years old) and a 12 years old girl.....c:: so we settled that if we want a class to happen... we had to make a group of 8 "all ages" or nothing...
that was a chalenge... The year after, for personnal schedule reasons, I wasn't teaching there but I went to do some replacement, there is no more age combined group but there is a nice group with 13 adult students... not enough kids for the kids class...

Originally Posted by shems

I think as long is nobody is hurting themselves, and people understand the distinction between any level student and being professional performer, I think it isn't that big a deal if one or two people get into a class a little above themselves.

It's mostly only an issue if the out-of-place student is being disruptive. I don't think anybody is objecting to the polite, serious-minded students who work quietly in the back row of a class they wouldn't normally be expected to take. It's the beginners who slow down the other students in the advanced class with their incessant need for explanations of basic concepts, and the self-proclaimed "advanced" experts who come to the beginner classes to show off or provide unsolicited teaching help that are the problem.

Originally Posted by AngelicaDances

That would be the ideal, however having tried over 20 different teachers in the last few years (and many new ones have emerged since I found "the one" ..g.:) I realize that more than half were not qualified to teach because they didn't have enough training and experience, and therefore did not have the skill to teach proper technique in order to prevent injury. If the teaching system was organized in a way similar to Arabesque Dance Company, I think a lot of these dancers would have a reality check and realize that it takes a lot of hard work and dedication to take dance to a performance/professional/artistic/teaching level.

And if students are doing this as a hobby, there is no shame in staying in a beginners course (level 1,2,3, ) for a while. I know a great teacher here used to organize a class where people could just come to dance and not focus TOO much on technique. It was the chance to meet other women and just have FUN! I think this type of class might reflect more of what this type of dancer is looking for without interferring with the level of a more serious dancer.

Well I think that's the bigger issue, not students are being taught but who is teaching them and what they are being taught.

I've seen teachers in my area with many more years BD experience who should not be teaching at all. It doesn't matter the length of time you've been dancing, it does matter your understanding of not only the dance form but the anatomy, body mechanics and abilities of those you are teaching. It's not so much police the classes as it is police the teachers.

I will say this, in my years of other dance I have encountered terrible ballet, modern and jazz teachers as well. It depends on the level of saturation and abilities of those around. I don't care if you're the least expensive, if what you do looks like crap I'm moving on to someone who knows about what they are doing.

People tend to rush into teaching because teachers have clout. Teachers get invited to perform at hafla's (because they have students who can perform and that brings in audience and money.) Teachers can take workshops for free if they sign X amount of students up. Teachers have more opportunitites because they are invited to student showcases and performance opportunities where students are encouraged. In my area teachers seem to have many advantages over those who don't teach.

Full disclosure, I don't teach, I don't teach anywhere or anything. I do give performance critiques (as a friend) to those who ask, and I have been asked to teach a workshop or two (I'm finally thinking I may stop turning down the opportunities and actually do one or two) but I have yet to step foot in a class room and teach. I have served as an assistant on occasion to two well respected and well known dancers which gives me some insight but most of what I'm saying is from the perspective of a non-teaching student/professional dancer.

From the original post it doesn't seem like that's the case there, but over here the problem that often causes classes to become mixed-level is a lack of advanced students.

Over here it seems hard to fill up even a beginner's class... then a lot of those beginners don't go on, and the teachers end up with only a couple intermediate or advanced students. If those intermediate or advanced students can't afford to take private classes, it becomes a choice between taking class with people at a lower skill level or no class at all.

(I'm not a teacher, but this has been my experience in some belly dance classes I've taken)

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

From the original post it doesn't seem like that's the case there, but over here the problem that often causes classes to become mixed-level is a lack of advanced students.

Over here it seems hard to fill up even a beginner's class... then a lot of those beginners don't go on, and the teachers end up with only a couple intermediate or advanced students. If those intermediate or advanced students can't afford to take private classes, it becomes a choice between taking class with people at a lower skill level or no class at all.

(I'm not a teacher, but this has been my experience in some belly dance classes I've taken)

The less students in an area the more likely this is to happen. Also people are not very good judges of self ability. Classes where the teacher teaches to the high end of the group tends to weed out the lower level dancers. But if a teacher is relying on the income of their students they may be less inclined to take this approach. Areas with more students are able to have a greater variety of levels being offered. I have taken classes where people were so lost that they never came back to the class in question. I have also taken "advanced" classes where the teacher would stop a choreography to break down a simplistic move like a chest circle or an arabesque.

a lot of the times i've seen this happen it was because the beginning student didn't have the night that beginning classes were happening free. so she attended the intermediate/advanced class instead, because it fit her schedule better.
so the options in these cases are 1: let the student take the higher level although she might not be ready and hope you have to skill to help her ketch up while simultaneously challenging the students who are at the level of the class or 2: loose the student.
i think it's easy to say be strict about the level of the class and that one more student isn't worth it. but where will the student go? will they forget about the dance all together? or go to another teacher who has class on the day they can make it? will that class be the right level or another advanced class? will the teacher be a good one or someone who figured she can do a hip circle so she's ready to teach?
maybe it's not a good idea, but there's a lot to consider

Well, another issue is that there are dancers out there who are dedicating their lives to this dance - no other job, this is their income and their life. Im not sure what its like in other areas but here there seems to be so much competition that the ones who are truly learning to master the dance on multiple levels (music, movement, culture, history, language, etc.) are missing out on potential work b/c there are WAY too many instructors to filter through.

So going back to the post where breaking up the courses into 9 segments is a lot of work, I think to myself, so what? ..g.: I know I would prefer to learn from someone who is willing to put the time into developing such an education. All I could think of is how much I would want to support that dancer. It might help future students realize that there is a long road ahead of them if they dream to perform or teach. I think it would motivate them to work harder. And in an ideal world, if they realize it takes years of hard work, they will respect and seek the instructor's advice when considering a professional level. And if they don't want to perform, a class should be designed for them to have fun and meet other people, without interferring in the other classes they aren't ready for.

If less qualified teachers didn't teach, the qualified teachers would have at least double or triple the amount of students showing up to their classes. It would be worth the extra work!! ..l;,

Originally Posted by AngelicaDances

Just had a thought last night and would like to hear people's opinions. There are LOADS of belly dance classes in my area. And there are also 3 standard levels; beginner, intermediate, and advanced. Sometimes beginner students get put into intermediate classes because there just aren't enough ppl to fill the session, and sometimes beginner/intermediate are placed in an advanced class. I understand why it happens from the instructors perspective in terms of finances and filling up a class, etc, but I wonder...

if a student isn't really advanced and is in that class, aren't we giving false impressions to that student? And doesn't this affect the mind frame of the student to think that if he/she is advanced, they are good enough to teach other people, and good enough to perform? Are we shooting ourselves in the foot and creating our own breed of undercutters?

I've taken other styles of dance classes where the levels were broken up into Beginner 1,2,3, Intermediate 1,2,3 and Advanced 1,2,3. If we all did this and allowed the student to advance when they were READY wouldn't this help (just a little) some of our frustrating situations? And wouldn't this help to ensure that the quality of dance in the area is at a higher standard? Or is it too late? ..c::

A good teacher can successfully manage and run a mixed ability class. It is possible. As has been pointed out, the majority of students come to class for fun and exercise...they have no desire to perform or take their dancing to very high levels. Being too structured can kill a class as surely as being too haphazard.

Unfortunately, there will always be bad teachers and bad dancers. We cannot control who teaches and who doesn't.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

you can find plenty of dancers who have been taking classes for years and dumping all kinds of money on workshops and they're still, in an objective analysis, in the intermediate category (if not occasionally lower).

The problem of ego will always be a problem. How on earth can you tell people they are not ready or competent enough to teach. I don't feel it can be done.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Finally, teachers sometimes encounter deluded but zealous wannabe pros who are so aggressive in their pursuit of stardom that the teacher puts them in a higher-level class than they might actually warrant just to shut them up--if not to rein them in, figuring that maybe they can get through to them and steer them in the right direction along the way.

Yes. Sometimes, in order to better manage a situation, one must find ways to work around the obstacles.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Yes, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Having better teacher qualifications and better student feedback during the educational process would definitely improve things, but it would never entirely fix the problem. Because we don't have a large-scale, formal employment system for dancers that acts as a filter to sort the qualified from the quacks, anyone who thinks they can belly dance as a pro can't be stopped from trying, and unfortunately, the worst offenders seem to be born with a gene that makes them immune to anything but compliments.

In the UK, there is a school of teaching that has 'standards' which were compromised when a failed student became unhappy about this in a big way. The school backpedalled and gave in. What use a 'Standard' when this kind of thing happens... but I guess if somene is forking out hundreds of pounds on a training course, they damned well want to get a qualification out of it at the end, come Hell or High Water - competency or no. This incident compounded my scepticism of such schools and such qualifications as being the benchmark for what constitutes a good teacher.

Perhaps a necessary requirement of the teaching standard should be that a teacher must work 'in the field' as a professional dancer for x amount of years - a criteria that would knock out a good percent of the teachers in the UK at least...c::

But the problem we have is that we cannot dictate who teaches or not. And teaching is often a learning curve that improves as time goes on. And there are bad dancers who can be good teachers...and vice versa.

It's not easy to simply pigeonhole this dance, or the teaching of it. So grey areas will always be there.

In my experience, any student who wants to progress, will see the light and move away from a bad or weak teacher. Those who don't, are usually those who are happy to pittle and pootle.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

It's mostly only an issue if the out-of-place student is being disruptive. I don't think anybody is objecting to the polite, serious-minded students who work quietly in the back row of a class they wouldn't normally be expected to take. It's the beginners who slow down the other students in the advanced class with their incessant need for explanations of basic concepts, and the self-proclaimed "advanced" experts who come to the beginner classes to show off or provide unsolicited teaching help that are the problem.

True, I'm not sure if I'm just lucky or adequately scary, but I've somehow managed to avoid these types thus far.

I do have a memory of somebody asking for additional break down on a very basic move in a more advanced class. I said, we'll do it after class. Then I took them aside after class, quickly broke down the step, then casually mentioned that I breakdown this and all the other dance vocabulary I consider foundational in my "basics" class and maybe they should take that class to brush up on their skills, either instead of or simultaneously with the more advanced class they are already trying to do.

I try to let people know there is no shame in brushing up on their basics. And that every new teacher has a different set of "basics" some of which might be new to them. Then I tell them I personally have taken beginning classes over again as a more experienced dancer and gotten a lot out of them, using the time to refine and polish and improve foundational movement (its true). I find that helps a few people get over their hang ups about doing a basic class.

I don't really tolerate much messing about or chatter in my class. I do have students in my class who will interject a piece of information here and there, but for the most part, they are actually sharing something helpful and in appropriate quantities. But you never know...I might have the student from hell in my future...

---

Truthfully, my issue of greatest concern is that several of the students who come to me for classes were already teaching and working professionally as belly dancers before they started taking classes from me. That completely takes the power out of my hands to give them any realistic critical feedback on their actual readiness for those activities. So far I've found no way to say, "you shouldn't be teaching or performing professionally right now" to somebody who has been doing it for years without totally alienating them. So I just do my best to help them rise to the occasion, at least they are seeking training and that's admirable. I hope they will eventually become fully qualified for what they are already doing.

Sometimes I think I hold a different standard than a lot of people though. (Just an aside if any of my students read this - I'm not referring to every pro or teacher who has taken class from me...if you are concerned just call me.)

From a student perspective - In our area there are two main teachers...by main I mean that teaching and dancing is their full time jobs. One being my teacher and the other being Ansuya's studio. I sometimes find it frustrating that the advanced/intermediate students are sort of held back by the endless wave of beginners. Every time a new "Wave" of students comes in and moves into our tribal troupe, those of us who have been dancing in it are held back to accommodate beginners. This I don't mind, actually...it's just that the wave of beginners never stays and then we get a new one! I wish a "Wave" would stick around so we can all advance together. It's an endless cycle and I know my teacher wants to advance the tribal knowledge she got certified in...but then again, teaching is her job. Belly dancing is her career and who can turn away students in these tough, economic times?

It's a no-win situation right now. Luckily, we don't seem to have this problem of students who are unfit to teach try to be insta-starlets/teachers.

I completely agree that there are too many unqualified dancers taking work away from ones who legitimately deserve it. Unfortunately, there are only a handful of places in the US that have the circumstances that can support a true, full-time, professional dancer at the level AngelicaDances is describing. Unless you live in a city with a master teacher in your style, a university with a full Middle Eastern Studies department, a large population of beginner students to pay you to teach them, suitable performance venues, and very little competition for gigs, how can a promising, high-level student ever reach the point where dance is their primary career unless they are independently wealthy or subsidized by family? Even if you had all those things (and the vast majority of aspiring pros don't), you would still need to travel to fill in the inevitable gaps. No matter how cosmopolitan New York and LA may be, they're still not Cairo and Istanbul, and there will always be other teachers in other places you want to study with. (A side effect of this is that areas that can offer students what they need to become really great dancers tend to oversaturate with up-and-coming pros as a result, so the market gets skewed anyway.)

The real problem is what to do with remaining 99% of the dance community. There are big groups of students in those "target" cities, and the more vibrant your dance scene, the more potential new people you can draw in, but there are a lot of folks who want dance education but don't live in those places. Do you tell them they can't have a teacher because the only teacher within driving distance is barely past "amateur" herself? Certainly it makes sense to want to restrict inferior teachers in an area where a better teacher is an option, but even that is disappointingly rare. I'm not being argumentative, but genuinely asking--where is the tipping point where less qualified teachers in "deprived" areas do more harm than good? How "bad" does a bad teacher have to be to be of less worth than leaving students to teach themselves? As undesirable as incompetent teachers may be, they do keep the backwaters from getting too stagnant, and students with potential who take their classes sometimes move on to bigger and better.

I have no idea how one would ever go about establishing and maintaining it, but maybe we need a star system like restaurants use...
"Greasy spoon" = "barely competent rec center teacher" = "*"
"World-class fine dining" = "Mahmoud Reda" = "*****"

I've started attending a mixed level, "open" ballet class. The instructor has everyone do the same basic exercises but for those who are stronger/more skilled, she suggests that they add something else, like arms or doing the move in releve.

Why can't belly dance be done the same if there isn't enough people to make individual levels?

A ranking system would be almost impossible to start. The extremes would probably be easy, but what about everyone in between?

Originally Posted by indigostars

I've started attending a mixed level, "open" ballet class. The instructor has everyone do the same basic exercises but for those who are stronger/more skilled, she suggests that they add something else, like arms or doing the move in releve.

Why can't belly dance be done the same if there isn't enough people to make individual levels?

Well, it often ends up being mixed, even if the levels aren't truly "mixed" (i.e. true beginners mixed with true intermediates) but there are beginning beginners and ongoing beginners in the same class.

In my experience, the difficulty really lies with the beginning beginner students becoming very interested in what the ongoing beginners are doing if different; it often proves to be a distraction, although unintentional.

OTOH, having higher level folks in class can prove to be an inspiration to the beginners.

As a teacher myself, I don't offer mixed beginner/intermediate classes. Instead, I demonstrate "real world" versions of short combos; I also dance for them very briefly near the end the session. I hope in this way that the students are inspired to continue.

As to students in the "wrong" level, as questioned in the OP: I have a beginner student who's been with me for about 5-6 sessions now (equivalent to about 6 months) and has experienced most of my curriculum for that level. Although she isn't ready for intermediate at this time (very few students would be), she's very interested in taking it. She even offered to take the beginner level concurrently.

I warned her that I take no prisoners at the intermediate level. If a student doesn't know how to do something from the beginner level, I would not break it down during the intermediate class. She understood and reiterated her commitment to taking both levels concurrently.

I'd allow her into the intermediate level class, as I would anyone who could, on command, execute all the basic movements even if they weren't technically perfect; after all, I wouldn't expect them to be perfect! My intermediate class is not a class where the end result is a public performance, although we work towards developing those skills, so a person can certainly grow into the level. Being slightly in over one's head can be a boost to get folks to a higher skill level, so long as they have the requisite, basic skill set.

I'm not sure what I'd do for intermediate into advanced though. I've privately coached that type of student, but not taught a class. I think I'd be pretty firm about the requirements. There are 'way too many upper-beginner/intermediate students who consider themselves advanced.

I think the most important thing about placement in a level are the skills one has developed. It has nothing to do with how much time a person has spent at a particular level, the caveat being if a teacher is able to conduct more than one level or type of class at any particular level.

Deborah

Originally Posted by indigostars

Why can't belly dance be done the same if there isn't enough people to make individual levels?

That's what most teachers with smaller attendance do already. In my experience, success in a mixed-level situation depends on how "mixed" the levels are, the personalities of the students, and how well the teacher manages the class. If the span of abilities is too great, it becomes unpleasant for everyone, unless you have an unusually amenable group. It also depends on the teacher's skill at keeping the class under control. If you have different groups doing different assignments at the same time (e.g., the more experienced students doing layering while the beginners do the basic move), it's important for the teacher to keep everybody on task and not let one group distract the other.

Originally Posted by indigostars

I've started attending a mixed level, "open" ballet class. The instructor has everyone do the same basic exercises but for those who are stronger/more skilled, she suggests that they add something else, like arms or doing the move in releve.

Why can't belly dance be done the same if there isn't enough people to make individual levels?

You mean it's not? It's completely normal to add a level of difficulty for more able students, isn't it?

OK, I'll tell you one reason why this sometimes falls down, though. You say do X, and "those of you who are confident with this move/have been dancing longer put a shimmy on it." 90 percent of the class starts trying to do the more difficult move. 80 percent of those dancers can't do the base move. In order to teach the students who can't do the move well/stop them from wrenching their backs/etc you need to go back to the base. And if you go "you you you and you do it like this, and YOU dancer X are their leader, follow her", you find that the small group of more able dancers starts chatting/playing up and is often actually missing out on some specific instruction that they really could benefit from.

What I'm describing is not even a true mixed level class.

WRT to ballet, I do an open class and the only concessions we get are a) no pointe b) no really difficult combinations - which means I'm still stumbling about like a loon c) no mean yelling. When we go into the centre, the class will often be split so the more able dancers and the more crappy dancers do a particular combination in separate groups, but we're all doing the same thing. The more able dancers may get to do it a bit faster, and of course they all jump higher etc, and are encouraged to do double-triple pirouettes instead of singles, but there's no difference.

In most of the classes I've gone to, everyone does the same thing. Occasionally, the instructor will announce to the general class that they should add shimmy as a layer or something else if they got down the basic move (let's say a hip circle). The teacher will also tell those who don't have the basic move down and are trying to add the shimmy to not do that (like literally tell individuals).

I've also been in communities mostly where there are several classes per week, and I believe the instructor can offer a genuine beginner class and an intermediate/advanced class.

My ballet class is way closer in level, but there still are some rather big differences, even with such a small class.

Originally Posted by Mahsima

I can only say this, it bums me out to have beginners in the intermediate/advanced class I'm in. For one, they are always kind of bewildered and two (this is the selfish one, but frankly I'm also paying for the class) the whole class gets slowed down, and I'm specifically attending those classes to get more of a challenge.

This is exactly how I feel when there are students in the classes I am in that truly need to be in a beginner class. We have had to revise choreography because they don't understand or cannot execute properly the move that is to be done. And, the instructor just cannot devote her time to a select few students to teach them moves they should have learned in a beginner class. It would be great if an instructor would recommend that a student move into the next level - at least that is what I feel should be done. It just isn't fair to hold those students back that went through the beginner classes and expect to be given a bit more challenge in the next level up only to find that they are being slowed down by students that truly do not have the basic moves or technique that is required for the intermediate/advance level. I enjoy the review and the drills but I do not want a full teach of a move that was taught for several weeks when I first began my classes.

following on from this...
how do you grade you classes?
how do you determine when someone is ready to move from beginner to intermediate level? is there a set of core moves you expect them to be able to do?
where i live you pretty much become classed as an intermediate dancer if you have taken one 10 week course!

Linda