Thread: Knees

well, more specifically, level changes.

I have patella femoral syndrome, fancy way of saying that my knee caps drift, causing pain. I am very active, so they don't actually hamper me in any way, as long as I remain aware of and pro-actively make sure I don't do anything to hurt them. For example, during practice, etc, I wear bands around the base of my knees to minimize the "drift".

In any event, I want to do level changes, those gushy figure 8's down and up, etc. I do a couple of things when I do this. Due to my fitness background, I keep my back straight and head lifted, which is good. My problem is that I tend to approach it as I approach a squat, good for my hamstrings and glutes, but NOT attractive,r:; . I'd like to imitate that look of knees together with the level change, and have observed that when dancers do this, they tend to lift their heels and the knees are way over, with the heels of the feet directly under the glutes. Doesn't feel comfortable to me.

Any tips on how to practice this while keeping my knees happy?

TIA!

This isn't the answer you're looking for: but, you could always wear an opaque skirt, & then, people won't notice exactly what your knees are doing.

true..l;, BUT, it's not the same look at all. Picture lowering yourself to sit in a chair -v- lowering yourself (ladylike) to pick something up off the floor.

very very different

I'm gonna look for a clip...

True. When in doubt, it's best not to hurt your knees. I don't have this particular problem, but I do have a different knee problem. I used to hide my legs all the time with skirts when I was in class, so that it wasn't obvious I was modifying. In particular I never used to dance with my knees very bent or very close together. I can do an approximation of what you are talking about; however, I can't go all the way down. I think you should ask for strengthening exercises from qualified people who know your body. You could also practice in front of a mirror & hold at the level just above where your knees don't like it. Over time you should be able to go down somewhat further. No micro-turnout. Knees directly over feet & knees pointing forward.

I recently found a yoga teacher who is also a modern dancer & ballet teacher. She is great at therapeutics & understands my hyperelastic body. It is hard to find someone who really understands the needs of an active person, especially hyperelastic. Don't know if you are, but it would probably go with the syndrome you mention. Also goes with belly dance! Good luck.

I also had/have patello femoral syndrome (which, I must say, is the most generic, lame name for a syndrome next to irritable bowel syndrome!). The doctor told me I'd never be able to bicycle, and I went on to do interprovincial cycling. I still can't do Stairmasters, but pretty much everything is fine, now. It was a long haul, though, and it took me about fifteen years of regular training until I beat patello femoral syndrome.

Through judicious weight training I strengthened my quads (and hamstrings) enough that I can now do deep knee bends to the floor and back up again with no stress/pain. So I can do those gooshy level changes now, when ten years ago, my knee caps would have been scraping and grinding and leaving me grimacing in agony.

I think the important thing to do is to avoid exercises which exacerbate the cap drift, and work on strengthening the supporting muscles. This will likely be a long process. I found studying martial arts to be supremely beneficial for my knees (particularly working with low horse stances), but your mileage may vary.

Hey, this knee syndrome is interesting - can you give more details about it?

I've something going on with my right knee - I've been delaying my MRI for god knows what good reason (none)...X-rays revealed nothing awry though I did rip the ACL many moons ago.

I cannot bear weight well on my right leg - my knee crackles like crunching up plastic or something when stepping up onto a curb or stair as I straighten the knee from the bend to step up...

Here is another tip for level changes, received from 2 of my teachers. You can keep one foot slightly in front of the other & hug one leg with the other. You can work with one heel up further than the other as well.

I would try different variations until you find the easiest one.

You could also hang onto something while going down (similar to working with a bar).

wow, really excellent suggestions, thanks!

Dani, is the knee issue on the same leg you tore the ACL on?

I don't go all the way down at this point (have in the past, still hopeful!) but I do a modified foot position that lets me go most of the way down safely.

I put one foot behind the other, on the ball, as if I were going to curtsy. Then I can lower with plenty of control (and whatever hipwork I want), going down to one knee as if to propose. The secret is to keep the weight even between the front & back foot -- there's a natural tendency to use the back foot only for stabilization.

This position has limits, of course, like I can't spring down & up quickly a la Dina/Tito. But it does give me a nice, stable, comfy & safe level change.

See also a very similar thread on "The Rest"

I encourage you to see a sports therapist. I struggled with drifting patella for years - my GP saw it as a 'nuisance' more than anything else. He didn't see it as something that was really impacting my lifestyle. In reality, I was getting weaker over time and having more issues as I was getting older. Now, after having some solid physical therapy I am not only doing better on my dips, but also able to bicycle and rollerblade with a vengeance!! Sports therapist are more focused on you gaining/retaining an ACTIVE lifestyle, not just one of simply coping.

"I encourage you to see a sports therapist." I'll second that!

Knee trouble can be repaired throught working specific muscles and alignment.

Also, I found that Pete Egoscue 's book "Pain Free" had some exercises that really helped me out.

Thanks, I can probably get my insurance to cover it... it's a healthy lifestyle issue, isn't it? But a sports therapist makes sense. I did do a course of physical therapy for it, but the physical therapist, while very good, wasn't prepared for someone with my level of activity.

This may seems silly in a way but, have you thought about training to do plies like in ballet? That would allow you to safely do level changes.

I'd suggest finding a good pilates teacher who knows alignment and kinesthesiology. I suspect that if you strenthen your VMO--a part of the quadricep group superior and medial to the patella--you will have greater success. I don't know your body, so I can't be sure what is good/safe for you, but if you want to strengthen this muscle do shallow plies with the toes turned in and out. If you can get you hands (or body) on a reformer, the sping tension will provide a very efficient and safe way to strengthen your supporting muscles.
Good Luck!
This is hard work

i have the same experience. my regular physiotherapists/GP were just "oh well, you wont be able to do this and that then, and i suggest you teach less, dance less, etc, you should just take a break for a few months and give it rest, and it will all be better". (not about my knee, about my hip problems before)

the sport revalidation therapist i went too (works with pro sports people) knows that i'm not going to quit, and hardly will want to do less, so comes up with suggestions for as you say "gaining/retaining an ACTIVE lifestyle, not just one of simply coping". i trusted him much more also when he said what i really should NOT be doing... and keep to that advice. their therapy is harder though (daily exercises)...

artemisia

should try to go and see him for my knee, but i cant before my doc writes me a referral