Thread: More advanced classes

This is kind of a spin-off from the 'inexperienced teacher' thread, as a lot of people on there were talking about the problem of classes very rarely being available above an improvers/intermediate level.

This is something I have been thinking about a lot recently as in my own area, the Middle Eastern Dance society of which I'm currently secretary has had to amalgamate our improvers and intermediate classes because we could no longer afford to run both with low student numbers, and one of our teachers has also had to cancel an intermediate class that she taught elsewhere for the same reasons. As far as I can tell, there are no other teachers nearby doing classes beyond 'improvers', either.

As an intermediate level student myself who really wants to learn more, this is really frustrating! I guess I'm looking for people's thoughts on how to invigorate the local dance community so that higher level classes become viable again, or ways of providing something to challenge intermediate students and keep them interested until we are able to run more classes again. Or just your own experiences as teachers or students :)

My suggestion is to go for private lessons or, if you have a small group of intermediate/advanced students, set up a small group lesson with a local instructor. It is more expensive than a regular open-to-the-public group class usually, but it can be really worth it and a small committed private group can grow into a public group class over time if the students stay invested in it.

I miss the social dynamic of being in class with a group of people who are struggling to master the same thing. I love my private lessons -- but they're just that: private. I miss the whole group effort thing.

What I've tried to do with my mixed level classes is offer the same choreography or set of drills, but with different options for each skill level. It seems to be working, but time will tell.

we are trying to work on this via

- our summerschool
- our project troupe
- ideas for an "advanced dancers training" in weekends. i hope to get that of the ground in the next two years or so. basically take our summerschool idea but specialise it into certain areas/topics, and restrict it to professional dancers. and get guest teachers in for it. i dont want to organise yet ANOTHER teacher training churning out people who maybe shouldnt be teaching yet; but i do feel that from the locals already teaching there is a desire to find training options that dont require traveling half across the globe.

a weekly advanced class is practically impossible to run, as it's impossible to fill. people in my area that would be interested in taking it... all teach themselves, all on different nights etc... and the numbers are just toooo low.

for my own needs of being IN a class, i try to take ballet, yoga etc.

I have been considering trying to organise a group to take private classes together, and we are also planning to hold more workshops with guest teachers in future, although I'm not sure what level these will be at.

We seem to have a situation at the moment where more advanced dancers drift away from classes, and especially if they don't teach classes themselves or perform all that often, lose contact with other dancers in the area. I would like to keep these dancers engaged with our ME dance society, as it would be better for them if we had something to offer, and also better for baby dancers to have more advanced dancers around to encourage and inspire them!

Originally Posted by Serpentina

This is kind of a spin-off from the 'inexperienced teacher' thread, as a lot of people on there were talking about the problem of classes very rarely being available above an improvers/intermediate level.

First, could you clarify what "improvers" means? Is it "improv +ers" (dancers who want to improvise) or "improve +ers" (dancers aggressively seeking to improve)"?

IMHO, the main problem is that the population of dancers who want higher-quality, advanced-material lessons and the teachers qualified to teach them are simply spread too few and far between. Unless you want to lower standards (which would defeat the purpose), there isn't much you can do about it. Perhaps someday, when the dance is taken seriously and it has more legitimacy as an artistic pursuit, more potential students will want to get involved with it as a long-term, academic proposition and the problem will resolve itself, but we can't plan for that.

What we have now is a situation where maybe, if a good-sized local community (within a 90-minute driving radius) is lucky, they will have a dozen students who want to be dedicated, and perhaps even a teacher who is qualified to teach at a higher level, but when you look at the student population, what you actually see is two dancers who want to do Modern Egyptian, one who wants to be the next Samia Gamal, one that only wants Reda and folkloric, three who want AmCab, one who wants Turkish, one who wants ATS, and three who want to be the next Rachel Brice. How do you make an advanced class out of that--even before you address the idea that some want to learn your choreography, some want to do their own, and some want improv only? No one contingent is large enough to offset the expense of holding the class, and unless you live in the same town with one heck of a master teacher, the best instructor in town is still going to fall short. Maybe you can stretch the potential student roster to include that handful of hobbyists in any town who are good enough to study at a higher level, but are not particularly motivated to do so--and will that work? Will the more aggressively interested students resent the others who don't particularly want to fuss over the details? Will the less motivated students resent the pressure to take a class that's working at a level beyond what they want?

Now, here comes the real fly in the ointment: What happens when the best teacher in town isn't much better than intermediate level herself? Disengaging your ego and admitting that you'd be more qualified to TAKE a class than TEACH it is a big and bitter pill to swallow, and a lot of teachers aren't up to that challenge when it's not a workshop. Some are, and if you live near one of them, maybe what you do is suggest that you meet once a week or month and try to work together and critique each other. It might still be "blind leading the blind," but short of moving elsewhere, what other options are there?

It seems the more educated you get, the harder it is to find the type of class you want. Private lessons and/or more workshops would be the way to go.

Originally Posted by mahsati

My suggestion is to go for private lessons or, if you have a small group of intermediate/advanced students, set up a small group lesson with a local instructor. It is more expensive than a regular open-to-the-public group class usually, but it can be really worth it and a small committed private group can grow into a public group class over time if the students stay invested in it.

100% agree with this.

I've been thinking about the subject of truly advanced classes for a long time and I've come to the conclusion that there are actually very few students who are willing to do the work necessary (or have the innate ability) to enter a truly advanced class, let alone become a truly advanced dancer. [please understand that I know I'm preaching to the choir when I write something like that on Bhuz, but it is definitely true in the general BD population] I've also concluded that probably the best way to get this type of advanced education anyway is to take small group classes (or privates) rather than regular group classes. As mahsati mentioned, these "small group" lessons will be more expensive, but will be worth it. "Small group" means a small group, probably under 5 people.

I would limit enrollment in this type of class to only "serious" students; "serious" does not equate with "professional aspirations," but it really does kinda require the same level of commitment to excellence that is required for pro work. It might even require invitation or audition to enroll. Yes, this would be a serious class. From this type of class would come dancers who are prepared for high-level performances and paid gigs.

I would offer small group lessons in sessions, just as I do for any type of group class but, more in line with private lessons, the needs/desires of the students play a huge role in structuring the session. The teacher obviously determines how to get from point A to point B. He/she also determines what the group, overall, needs but also should take into consideration what the group wants; for example, if the group wants to work alot on shimmies for a session, the teacher can certainly accomodate that and include drills on upper body control and layering, plus musicality and such.

Folks who are ready to be advanced students should have very strong technique for most movements, consistant good posture, at least a nodding acquaintance with body lines and how they relate to BD, an ear that is developing an appreciation for musical nuance and a bunch of other stuff. Wow, "intermediate" students have a whole big bunch of stuff to learn; it's no wonder few seem to move beyond that!

Are "regular" advanced classes (I like the term "more advanced," too!) of any value? Absolutely. But for a faster track and more intense study, small groups really are a wonderful way to go.

Hmmmm . . .

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

I've been thinking about the subject of truly advanced classes for a long time and I've come to the conclusion that there are actually very few students who are willing to do the work necessary (or have the innate ability) to enter a truly advanced class, let alone become a truly advanced dancer. [please understand that I know I'm preaching to the choir when I write something like that on Bhuz, but it is definitely true in the general BD population] I've also concluded that probably the best way to get this type of advanced education anyway is to take small group classes (or privates) rather than regular group classes.

This is why I've had to change up instructors for group classes because most of the students weren't serious. Not so much the instructors' fault - it's just the way it is out there.

I'm in an "intermediate/advanced" class that used to be two separate classes. My instructor ended up merging them when attendance was too low. Generally my classes have less than 6 people in them, but the levels vary greatly. There are a couple people who should still be in beginner classes and a few low intermediates. This means that the speed of the class is sort of dependent upon who shows up.

I'm coming to the conclusion that my growth as a dancer from this point on will have to be through private lessons and mentoring from a few instructors I really admire. I continue to take workshops and classes, but I find myself spending more time and money on private instruction. Find an instructor you really like and take some private or semi-private lessons.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

First, could you clarify what "improvers" means? Is it "improv +ers" (dancers who want to improvise) or "improve +ers" (dancers aggressively seeking to improve)"?

Neither, unfortunately - it usually seems to refer to classes that might be better described as 'beginners 2' or something. The 'improvers' class that we run used to follow on from one of our beginners classes, and beginner students would start coming to it as they got a bit more confident, to learn more combinations and choreographies with the moves learned in the beginner class. Now that it has been amalgamated with the intermediate class, the level is a bit higher, but fewer new students seem to be progressing from a beginner level.

Originally Posted by Serpentina

Neither, unfortunately - it usually seems to refer to classes that might be better described as 'beginners 2' or something. The 'improvers' class that we run used to follow on from one of our beginners classes, and beginner students would start coming to it as they got a bit more confident, to learn more combinations and choreographies with the moves learned in the beginner class. Now that it has been amalgamated with the intermediate class, the level is a bit higher, but fewer new students seem to be progressing from a beginner level.

I have a similar problem and am seriously considering restructuring my class levels for September. At present I have Beginners and Improvers/Intermediate (mixed inherited class from adult ed classes that closed) Possible solution:

1. A Beginners (Foundation) class lasting12 weeks, which can be repeated 2-3 times. Will include the basics and a new short choreography each term so students can repeat without getting bored and learn something new

2. An Improvers class for student who have done 2/3 of the above, on-going with more challenging choregraphy, more complex drills, and Keti Sharif's A-Z

2. An on-going Intermediate class for those who have been dancing consistently for at least two years. More complex choregraphies, layering, musical interpretation, improvisation, etc.

I don't feel qualified to teach at advanced level, and still regularly attend workshops with master teachers. I don't have anyone [I]really advanced[I] locally.

This all sound great on paper, I will probably fall flat on my face, cos students want to come at the same time, day etc whatever their level. ..cr.: Any suggestions anyone? Can I learn from your experience please? Can't find a smiley for begging!!!

Originally Posted by Fotia

This is why I've had to change up instructors for group classes because most of the students weren't serious. Not so much the instructors' fault - it's just the way it is out there.

Absolutely understandable. I know that it's a very frustrating situation, for both student and teacher. No simple solution, though . . . as we've discovered on this thread. I love Bhuz!

Deborah

My studio has begun to address this issue using a bit of a different approach. My basic realization was: I can't do this alone. Many teachers have small advanced classes...so why not bring them together?

I now have two teachers teaching an Advanced/Competitive class. Started in Sept and just did our first competition last week. A few of the tens of things I learned:
1 - you can't do it alone; teachers need to work together
2 - students at that level need a goal, something to work towards...a big show, a competition, something to mark their progress and keep them going
3 - students at this level learn better and become better faster with a larger group of peers
4 - longer bi-monthly classes work better than weekly classes
5 - variety and challenge is the key

The two teachers I've got are just amazing, and they provide variety in what they teach (one does Raks Sharqi and the other specializes in Egyptian and ME Folkloric) so the dancers learn a great variety of stuff. And this term, I've actually managed to get my hands on a drummer, so we'll be working with him as well.

Hopefully some of this is helpful?

Oh - our 8 entries all took 1st and 2nd places! YAY!

Originally Posted by elljay

My studio has begun to address this issue using a bit of a different approach. My basic realization was: I can't do this alone. Many teachers have small advanced classes...so why not bring them together?

I now have two teachers teaching an Advanced/Competitive class. Started in Sept and just did our first competition last week. A few of the tens of things I learned:
1 - you can't do it alone; teachers need to work together
2 - students at that level need a goal, something to work towards...a big show, a competition, something to mark their progress and keep them going
3 - students at this level learn better and become better faster with a larger group of peers
4 - longer bi-monthly classes work better than weekly classes
5 - variety and challenge is the key

The two teachers I've got are just amazing, and they provide variety in what they teach (one does Raks Sharqi and the other specializes in Egyptian and ME Folkloric) so the dancers learn a great variety of stuff. And this term, I've actually managed to get my hands on a drummer, so we'll be working with him as well.

Hopefully some of this is helpful?

Oh - our 8 entries all took 1st and 2nd places! YAY!

This is an interesting idea, especially making the classes longer and less frequent, and cooperation between teachers. I suppose it is a kind of compromise between classes and workshops. I'll suggest something like this at our next committee meeting! How does the two teachers thing work - do they teach alternate classes? To what extent do they work towards the same goals with the class?

Hey Serpentina - yes, they alternate classess. One teaches folk, the other teaches Raks Sharqi, so really, they're on two separate tracks and really don't cross over, so they don't really share a specific goal, other than to work them hard, push their boundaries, and have a group choreography done to performance spec. by the end of session.

I am still wondering too: when people use the term "improvers" what was the original intent of term? Dancers who want to improve but are not "intermediates" yet? is what I assumed but not sure. Sometimes I think it refers to an class that is "looser" and more for improvisation?
I don't really hear the term in my neck of the woods.

I believe improvers is used to describe the stage between beginner and intermediate.

Originally Posted by caralovescostumes

I believe improvers is used to describe the stage between beginner and intermediate.

Thanks!