Thread: ramble about student levels

has any of you ever drastically changed how you name/label the levels of the classes, sort the students?

i keep thinking of getting rid of all the names 'beginners' 'improvers', 'lower intermediate' etc, and change it into "level one" "level two" "level three" up to level 6 or so (we now have 5-6 levels also) and sort of "assessing" the students and telling them what 'level' they are.

is david still on here, didnt his school have this sort of system.
but i'm not sure i want to do any kind of "evaluation" system.

i noticed that whenever i change something or a lot (like this term we're offering loads of new class options, and the students are finding the change hard, waiting a long time to enroll, and seem very unsure about making a choice and discussing their choices with me). i guess everyone just always prefers things to stay the way they are. on the same day, the same hour, the same teacher. we're naturally conservative it seems.

in general, i have TONS of intermediates, of slightly varying levels, and i just need a new way of dividing them into groups
- as teaching the same class three times a week doesnt work for me,
- but i also find it super hard to go 'you, you have to stay in this group and alllll your friends get to move up'.

the more advanced students i have, and the more good intermediates (where half are hard working, do their homework and progress like mad and the other half just comes for an hours entertainment every week), the harder i'm finding it to make groups, as within the same group some are progressing really fast, and others seem stuck.. some of those are upset by that, others dont.

hm, yesterday was the last class of this term for the upper intermediates. i really should have given them the 'if you want to progress quicker, you need to...' speech.

to be clear: i love teaching the ones that just come for their one hour a week just as much! it's just that i'm again at a point where i have an overflow of students of the same level, more or less, and thinking of ways of dividing them.

the "general class" versus "dedicated dancers" class, i've tried that before and it just creates agony and jealousy. so i think moving some people up quicker than others in general is the only thing i can think of that will work. but than what with the people who get stuck indefinitely .

ramble over.

I work with the level 1-2-3 (3 starting in Sept in some groups, yay!) system because I don't have much options with the different locations. When you master the material in level 1, you graduate to level 2. It's easier that way but I'm on a smaller scale than you. I wish I could work with more specific levels like yours!

i think having LESS levels has it's advantes too: students will expect less to move up constantly, it makes it clear to students that some material NEEDS repeating, and students will accept diversity within the class?

They do accept diversity within the class but only to some extent. It's motivating for some to see what practice and hard work will lead to, it's frustrating for others. I try to work with those while the others drill (in a subtle way), but it's hard when you feel half of the class wants MORE and you can't move on to the next move because of the other half. Plus, they don't always tell you what they want because they're afraid to slow down class.
I'm so looking forward to adding a level 3, the gap between 1 and 2 is getting too big, making it a huge step to graduate!

i'm glad you managed adding a class!

We all understand your predicament, because the same thing keeps happening over and over again. I think much of it stems from our own failure to decide whether we (each of us as individuals, and also as a wider community) want to be a fun hobby with no expectations, or a serious art with standards, or a two-track combination of both positions. We're constantly confronted with a mixed population of students who create these kinds of problems, and IMHO, the inability to differentiate is the heart of this. Honestly, some of it comes from fear and hesitation--too many teachers are uncomfortable saying, "Look, I'm more serious. If you want to just goof around for an hour of a week, Teacher X across town is a better fit for you" or "I couldn't care less about learning about the maqamat or speaking Arabic, and those 45-minute-long Umm Kalthoum records bore me to tears. I'm just in it to dress up and have fun myself, so my teaching style isn't going to be a good fit for you as a student, if you have aspirations of being invited to teach at the Nile Group someday." I'm not saying one side is more "right" than the other, only that both need to be more honest about who they really are--certainly, past the introductory level, if not from Day One.

Another problem that keeps reappearing is the "myth of equality," which comes from the desire to support the "sisterhood." Too many teachers let students cultivate this mentality that if Dancer X and I started dancing at the same time, then Dancer X and I must be at the same level. Sometimes that's true, and sometimes it isn't. It depends on whether you and Dancer X have the same motivation to practice, the same physical potential, and the same exposure to the same quality of teaching--and yet, people push this idea that there is something inherently insulting about pointing this out to a student. Hurt feelings--bah. When you take a Chemistry class, the teacher doesn't care if your feelings get hurt when you're wrong. If you fail the test, you get a failing grade. (A good teacher won't be a jerk about it, but still...there's a time for empathy and a time for reality.) Okay, Chemistry is not a subjective field, but formal instruction in art, music, acting, and dance all do this, too. If you aren't up to par, you don't get to perform or present your work. If you enter a competition and make a mess out of it, you don't get inflated grades because the judges want to be "nice." They expect that if you go on to the professional level, it's a tough, competitive business and you may be the subject of brutally harsh public criticism, so learning how to deal with this is part of the educational process. If your feelings get hurt, that's a shame. Suck it up, work harder, and listen to the teacher's advice next time because they're trying to prevent you from making these mistakes.

[Sorry, just a pinch more...]

Teachers in our field who are faced with a mixed population of students can't be this aggressively candid. They're afraid they'll lose students to someone else who doesn't teach this way, or scare students off entirely. The customer is always right, but the lunatics shouldn't run the asylum--how do you find a balance?

i think i want to teach BOTH the students who want to come for their one hour of fun AND the ones who are dedicated, and i'm trying to offer classes for both groups

and yes, this leads to the unpleasant "no, you're not moving up to that class, yes, i know X and Y arent, but you are not"

i've been having to do a lot of that lately. and i know i have to do so, and i do so often, but still even after ten years of teaching, that just doesnt get any easier. It's not so much a fear of loosing students, but a fear of hurting peoples feelings. i just hate doing that.

even for the "seriously dedicated" ones, for 99% this is a "hobby", and i do feel, it is and should not be a place where they should feel bad about themselves. "sisterhood"? maybe.

but still, yes, it needs to be clear that you'll get out of this dance... what you put into it...

and then of course there is the matter of talent. you'll always have students who work really hard and dont progress, and students that dont work at all but keep up fine..

Isn't the problem not that you want to be able to teach both groups, but that you're in a situation where you're trying to teach both groups in the same class at the same time? This gets back to the thread from yesterday--what do you do when you don't have enough serious students progressing at the same speed to make teaching them as a group cost efficient?

i actually would prefer NOT to teach them in the same group, or at least partially not. that's exactly what i'm trying to come up with. i have enough students to split them up.

i'm having a new attempt at a student troupe, and hoping that will help.

and yes, the real issue is coming up with some division of classes that is based in WHAT we do in class, rather than the "level" of the class. on how "serious" i can teach the class, even on similar topics.

but everytime i do that, it always gets interpreted as one class being "better" than the other, and as something that needs to be aspired too.

so, yes, how do we integrate both "tracks" in the same school.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

but everytime i do that, it always gets interpreted as one class being "better" than the other, and as something that needs to be aspired too.

I don't understand why students get so hung up about this. What's wrong about aspiring to be in the more challenging classes? Those classes ARE better in the sense that they teach more complex material and hopefully create higher quality dancers.

Students should be free to choose whether they want to be on an aggressive academic path or not, but I don't see why the ones who want to exercise the less aggressive option should feel they have some right to demand the same respect and recognition as the ones who take the harder path. There's no shame in going to a trade school and becoming an electrician. It's a respectable accomplishment and an honorable occupation, but it's not the same as earning a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering. If you want to make the more mundane choice, then accept that you chose not to take the prestige route.

so, yes, how do we integrate both "tracks" in the same school.

If you have enough students, run separate classes and performance troupes. Some students will be angry about not making the cut to the prestige track, but if you're giving them the same educational opportunities in the lower-level classes, then it isn't your fault what they make of them. It's their choice whether they practice and how hard they work.

edited cause: i was repeating myself
thanks for the input tourbeau

off to think of possible class names/plans

To give you a student's perspective, levels are so confusing. I take Intermediate workshops because I enjoy learning new moves and I enjoy struggling to keep up because it makes me a better dancer. But my classes have all had different ideas about what intermediate and beginner is. I think I'll be an intermediate beginner probably for another 2 years or so, and after I've been dancing for 4 or more years I'll be considered intermediate, providing I practice enough and progress enough. I still find it confusing though, and sometimes I wish there were standards so I knew where I stood as a student.

yes, this is why i always post quite detailed descriptions of what the class is about, and where i expect them to be at. although too often i need to also refer to the "numbers of years" of classes taken, which often doesnt make sense..

i think generally, and this might be a cultural thing, students expect class levels to work like this

- so many terms in level A
- so many terms in level B
- so many terms in level C
- etc etc
- with the "performance group" or "select" group as the final destination

as an endless upgoing curve... and if you dont go UP, you are doing something wrong, or you are "bad at it" and are better of quitting.

or they think if they stick in the same group it'll be the exact same material/content. apart from our total beginners or ongoing beginners, i dont think i ever teach the same material twice (it would bore me too).. so you could really take level C 4-5 terms and it would be something else (at about the same level) each time. but students seem to think that's a failure? well, some do at least.

while i'd like to find a way of breaking that cycle. i've been trying to do that by adding "topical" classes, rather than just levels...

but generally people just want to stay in the same group, with the same people, on the same day. whatever is "safe". and fits in with the rest of there activities/family/work/life, naturally!

i think my own reticence towards teaching private classes probably doesnt help either...

once i quit this d*mn day job i'm going to try to offer more advanced/serious classes in the weekends on alternating weekends or so... would love to try that approach. the come and get your butt kicked class.

but also would love to offer a "your weekly fun work out" class.

maybe i should go ahead and start calling them just that

Originally Posted by smuse33

To give you a student's perspective, levels are so confusing. I take Intermediate workshops because I enjoy learning new moves and I enjoy struggling to keep up because it makes me a better dancer. But my classes have all had different ideas about what intermediate and beginner is. I think I'll be an intermediate beginner probably for another 2 years or so, and after I've been dancing for 4 or more years I'll be considered intermediate, providing I practice enough and progress enough. I still find it confusing though, and sometimes I wish there were standards so I knew where I stood as a student.

This!
I've been dancing about the same length of time as smuse, and have no idea really what level I'd be considered to be at by most bhuzzers, although I guess something like low intermediate. I don't care what a class is called, I just want it to be challenging, interesting and to be focused on making students into better dancers. I like the idea of two streams for 'serious' students and those who just want to shimmy around a bit once a week, but with the current class-size woes we've been having in my neck of the woods there's no way it would be practical here .

If there were separate 'serious' and 'fun' classes, would it actually be necessary to tell people they couldn't join the serious one and risk hurting their feelings or offending them? If you made the nature of the classes clear, and people still chose to come to an unsuitable one, you would be under no obligation to dumb down for them and they would have to either learn to keep up or go back to the more appropriate class.

Good distinction, Serpintina. I would consider myself a serious student. Definitely not just doing it for fun, but wanting to become a good dancer. Not just a good dancer, but a phenominal dancer. I know phenominal may take up to 20 years or more, but that is my ultimate goal. Pretty lofty, isn't it? Lol. I do have to figure out how to measure my progress. I suppose an intermediate workshop might be a bit different from an intermediate class? Confusing.

I feel your pain, Artemisia.

It would be lovely if adult learners could look around and say 'Gee, I'm obviously not progressing as well as some of the others, and I don't seem to have the natural ability to go into the more serious program. But even though I'll never be as good as them, it's still fun for me to flounder around looking awkward, so I'll stay in class in this recreational track and have a good time.'

That's not how human nature works. People want to either be good at what they're doing or feel dejected and quit. It's not realistic to expect people to happily slip into a slower track and feel great about themselves.

I want to be able to offer a full challenge to my students who are dedicated, natural dancers and fast learners. But I don't want to take anything away from the women who AREN'T those things but whose personalities grow and blossom by leaps and bounds in my classes and by facing their performance anxieties and overcoming them in student-appropriate venues. Those women gain MORE from the dance than the lithe graceful musical athletic ones. Way more.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose to focus on the students who have the most to gain from my classes. Even though it means wrestling with my ego on occasion -- of course I love seeing my choreographies and my teaching reflected by the 'dance company' types.

I believe it's possible to teach both groups to a point. I'm beginning to offer a 'dance company track' within my student troupe, for instance, for those who are truly capable of performing at GP events.

Artemisia, here's what I'm leaning toward, borrow anything that's helpful!

- The bulk of my program is recreational and designed to be fun. It helps ME to remember that. Serious students have some opportunities within the program, but at the near-professional level I believe people have to take responsibility for their own training, attend workshops, take privates (not with me! I don't teach them either). That's certainly how it was for me. They can also, of course, leave my program and go to one that is a better match for their goals.

- I use a numbered level system. I have levels 1-4. The system I'm moving toward is providing a checklist of skills I expect at each level, giving a timeline (roughly 6 months are spent at each level) and expecting people to self-assess before they sign up for the next level. I reserve the right to pull someone aside, checklist in hand, and say "I know you've been in Level 2 for six months, but I don't think you'll be ready for level 3 until you've worked some more on X,Y and Z'

- I offer a 'drills' class that students can take to escape from the levels system if they just want a sort of workout class. It's also a place people can go to work on specific skills. It tends to be a small group so I can tailor it to the needs of the group. Instead of offering privates, I can say "why don't you come to drills and we'll work on X, Y and Z"

- I offer an 'advanced solo skills' class where I cover material that doesn't come up anywhere else. I can push those women a LOT harder. It's open to my most advanced students as well as dancers from outside my program and is one of the few classes I allow drop-ins for. In that class, I hold nothing back and will not slow down for stragglers. No one is at any point required to take the class - if you don't want that level of instruction, you can still happily dwell in the group. It winds up being a defacto level 5 class, but I will never call it that because then people would feel left behind if they opt out of it!

[QUOTE=Lauren_;639713] 'Gee, I'm obviously not progressing as well as some of the others, and I don't seem to have the natural ability to go into the more serious program. But even though I'll never be as good as them, it's still fun for me to flounder around looking awkward, so I'll stay in class in this recreational track and have a good time.'

that was me in drawing and choir. i suck. i loved it though. but yeah, you are right, most people wouldnt

I want to be able to offer a full challenge to my students who are dedicated, natural dancers and fast learners. But I don't want to take anything away from the women who AREN'T those things but whose personalities grow and blossom by leaps and bounds in my classes and by facing their performance anxieties and overcoming them in student-appropriate venues. Those women gain MORE from the dance than the lithe graceful musical athletic ones. Way more.

exactly! !!!

i think it comes down to these issues

* if i want to ADD a class, for those few who want to work a lot harder... it somehow always ends up hurting the students who DONT end up in that class. and suddenly people who are not ready for it, want to join, suddenly it becomes a goal? as if its were all need to end up?

* for all the OTHER levels, from beginners onwards, one has faster and slower learners, i struggle with the issues of how to move some people up faster than others, and how to tell some people it would be better if they stick in a certain group a bit longer. a clear list of expectations and pointing out to them what exactly needs working on rather than the vague "not ready yet", is a good idea lauren!

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

i think it comes down to these issues

* if i want to ADD a class, for those few who want to work a lot harder... it somehow always ends up hurting the students who DONT end up in that class. and suddenly people who are not ready for it, want to join, suddenly it becomes a goal? as if its were all need to end up?

Yes!

My solo skills class worked because my performance group members are already required to be signed up for 2 classes -- level 4 choreography on Wednesday and rehearsals on Saturday.

Dancers who are taking it CAN'T leave the regular level 4 class if they want to continue to perform with the group. So it doesn't feel like a whole new level that people are left out of, and no one has left the regular class to go to the new class. It HAS to be an add-on.

A third class is a serious commitment of both time and money, so only the most dedicated students are in it.

I technically teach 3 Levels (plus a cardio workout class that doesn't really teach dancing, so we'll ignore it for this discussion), based loosely on how I "came up" in my dance education - Beginning, Level 2, and Troupe.

Beginning is mainly a drilling class - shimmies, hip lift/drops, chest lift/drops, hip circles/ommis, undulations and some simple arm and veil moves. There's a moderate amount of cultural and musical information, as this is a true "intro" class meant to serve those who have varying interest in BD. Students must take a minimum of two 6-week sessions in order to advance into the Level 2 class, although more than a few take Beginning more like 3-4 times before advancing.

Level 2 introduces traveling, layering, and transitions, along with much more emphasis on culture and music, and we also use finger cymbals. I do combinations rather than actual choreography - the format is that I cover a certain technique/style/move/song each week, and then we do a combination putting the what we leaned into practice. This is an ongoing class with different levels of student experience, but I've had a fair amount of luck with adding more difficult variations for the more experienced students. I get a few people here and there who self-promote earlier than they should and then drop after the first session (I don't soft pedal how much more advanced Level 2 gets, but occasionally they get itchy to advance), but I've had no problem keeping a steady class size of at least 10 - 15 students per session for the last 3 years or so.

Troupe is where Level 2 students join by audition only (it used to be open but I changed that recently when the troupe became so big we grew out of a lot of venues). They learn full choreographies and there are amateur performance opportunities available. Because all we work on in troupe is the choreos and their associated technique/style, members must be a current Level 2 student so they continue to learn new material in that class.

I guess another level would be the privates that I teach to Level 2 students who want more in-depth and/or advanced material than what I can offer in class. I have 3 or 4 Level 2 students that come to me for privates semi-regularly to work on solos, a particular style, or just to get their technique to the next level.

Originally Posted by Serpentina

If you made the nature of the classes clear, and people still chose to come to an unsuitable one, you would be under no obligation to dumb down for them and they would have to either learn to keep up or go back to the more appropriate class.

Speaking as someone who had the "privilege" of being in an "advanced" class with a bunch of senior students and one loudmouthed noob who had a couple of weeks of lessons, this is not fair to the students who deserve to be there, because a conspicuously floundering student wastes their time and money. Of course, YMMV depending on how much of a disparity you have between the dancers' abilities, and the disposition of the odd person out. If you are close to being at that level and aren't disruptive, it's probably not a problem, but the situation I was in was a disaster, because the beginner kept hijacking the class to ask for break downs of elementary moves, and the visiting teacher was too polite to tell her to go to the back of the room and be quiet if she couldn't keep up.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It would be lovely if adult learners could look around and say 'Gee, I'm obviously not progressing as well as some of the others, and I don't seem to have the natural ability to go into the more serious program. But even though I'll never be as good as them, it's still fun for me to flounder around looking awkward, so I'll stay in class in this recreational track and have a good time.'

That's not how human nature works. People want to either be good at what they're doing or feel dejected and quit. It's not realistic to expect people to happily slip into a slower track and feel great about themselves.

This is the same scarecrow in a different pair of overalls. By that reasoning, anyone who wants to be a pro should be free to get out there and start doing gigs. Anybody who thinks they know enough to teach ought to be able to hang out a shingle. Sometimes dancers who don't belong in an upper-level class want to do bellygrams and teach, too. If you aren't good enough to be a pro dancer or a teacher or, least of all, a student in an advanced class, who are we to hurt their feelings and crush their dreams?

No. Teachers have a responsibility to encourage their students to set and pursue reasonable goals, not to give in to students' delusions of achievements that simply aren't within their current grasp. What justification could a teacher possibly have for being unable to tell a student, "I'm sorry, but you're not ready to be in this other class yet, because you need to work on X, Y, and Z first"? Is it fear of losing tuition? Concern that the student is the type who might head off to another teacher's class and start spreading malicious gossip? Academically speaking, why wouldn't you be honest with your students? Aren't they paying you for your expertise--part of which is supposed to be knowing the difference between "outstanding," "passable," and "needs improvement"? Why are we letting students bully us into telling us who is fit to be in our own classes?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Why are we letting students bully us into telling us who is fit to be in our own classes?

Not to speak for Lauren, but what I think she was getting at was understanding how students FEEL, not what actions the teacher takes.

In other words, of course we have the right to deny advancing a student in to the next level, but what we don't have is the right to demand that they take it well, or understand that it's what's best for them. I've had students leave my classes because they were displeased that they didn't learn choreos right away, they thought drilling was boring, that they had to take the Beginning class twice before advancing. It doesn't change the way I run my classes, but OTOH, they are perfectly within their rights to think I'm a crummy teacher and take their business elsewhere.

I don't insist that they bow down and say, "Oh, THANK YOU, Galatea, for showing me that it's better to take the time and progress slowly, so that I'll see greater gains in the long run." The truth is, many people will never understand or care about that, no matter how gently you put it.

Hey Artemisia

Maybe you don't like your own students commenting on this but still... :)

I asked you some time ago if I could go to a higher level class (you told us to do so). You told me no (then :Awink: ), but you didn't do it in an offending way AT ALL!! At least you explained what you expected of me. I told you, it just motivated me to work harder. So please, don't feel bad about telling us students where we stand, sometimes we need to hear some points of improvement! And as you keep saying: the teacher is always right!

And I think your description of levels on the website is good, I think it gives a clear image of what people should expect in class. You also mention that people have to follow the same course a couple of times and that the course is never the same. What more could you do??
About the levels-thing. Maybe you should change it, but then it will be even more of a deal to 'progress' to a higher 'level', so I don't know what to do with that either. But maybe you should split the intermediates (now two groups) into three groups...

I like your way of changing a lot! E.g. although I cannot attend, I expect that people from all 'levels' will take the props courses. It's fun to meet other people.
+ I don't know why everyone is waiting so long to decide what to do next term, maybe because there is SO MUCH to choose from??

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

This is the same scarecrow in a different pair of overalls. By that reasoning, anyone who wants to be a pro should be free to get out there and start doing gigs. Anybody who thinks they know enough to teach ought to be able to hang out a shingle. Sometimes dancers who don't belong in an upper-level class want to do bellygrams and teach, too. If you aren't good enough to be a pro dancer or a teacher or, least of all, a student in an advanced class, who are we to hurt their feelings and crush their dreams?

No. Teachers have a responsibility to encourage their students to set and pursue reasonable goals, not to give in to students' delusions of achievements that simply aren't within their current grasp. What justification could a teacher possibly have for being unable to tell a student, "I'm sorry, but you're not ready to be in this other class yet, because you need to work on X, Y, and Z first"? Is it fear of losing tuition? Concern that the student is the type who might head off to another teacher's class and start spreading malicious gossip? Academically speaking, why wouldn't you be honest with your students? Aren't they paying you for your expertise--part of which is supposed to be knowing the difference between "outstanding," "passable," and "needs improvement"? Why are we letting students bully us into telling us who is fit to be in our own classes?

You quoted me, but the rest of what you're saying is in DIRECT opposition to what I gave as my policies. This post doesn't seem related to anything anyone else has said on this thread either, so I'm not sure who you're speaking to.

If someone here is arguing that students should be lied to, promoted when they're not ready, or allowed to bully their instructors, I missed that post.

From a student standpoint, something really useful would be a list of what the teacher feels is included in each level. Level one - complete beginner, knows nothing
Level 2 - able to perform x,y,z movements, knows rythms 1, 2 and 3
and so on.