Thread: Turkish dancers vs just bad poor tecnique

Totally trying not to open up a can of worms...

Is it me or are more and more dancers being told their "Turkish" stylistically by people when its really just bad technique? I think it's really hurting authentic, good, Turkish style. Sharp movements don't always = Turkish.

End rant.

i don't know much about it, but i don't think that should be a can of worms. it sounds more like you're defending Turkish style ^_^

Well, I have only ever seen ONE real Turkish dancer, and that was Sema Yildiz, and I was surprised at how *smooth* she was, even in her gutsy Turkish Rom. So I quickly realised that Turkish most defintely =/= rough and jerky. At all.

I DO think some people say they are "Turkish" because they like to be all wild and crazy, but that is obviously not actually a hallmark of Turkish dance so much as Wild And Crazy Person dance.

Turkish has more than one sub-style. The older style tends to be less wild than the modern one, and the Roma style comes across as very energetic and aggressive to me. Turkish belly dance in Turkey apparently went through a phase where the quality of professional dancing went down after the collapse of the Iron Curtain. As I understand it, the dance scene was heavily infiltrated by prostitutes and desperate dancers looking for work from Eastern Europe. They lacked the musical training, cultural understanding, etc., to do the Turkish style justice, audiences lost interest...downward spiral. Within the last decade or so, there's been something of a renaissance--Turks wanting to reclaim their own dance, and Westerners looking to discover something fresh after years of Egyptian style being "the thing."

On the other side of the world, dancers who didn't know enough to pull off or felt restricted by the constraints of Egyptian style started labeling a lot of what wasn't Egyptian or tribal as "Turkish," when it technically wasn't. Sometimes it was the style that dancers know as "American Hybrid" or "AmCab" that has very strong Turkish elements to it but isn't "purely" Turkish. Other times, it was just really bad, fusion-y, interpretive belly dance trying to sneak a little credibility for itself by wearing an ethnic nametag. There were a handful of dancers (e.g., Artemis Mourat, Hadia, Eva Cernik) who taught the "real" Turkish style during that time, but they were few and far between. They still are, actually.

Honestly, I don't feel much personal resonance with the Turkish style family, and I struggle to tell good contemporary Turkish dancing from crazy-bad dancing. Except for the vintage style, it almost always looks more flail-y and hard and uncontrolled to me than I want to dance.

Actually, Turkish Romani-style dancing is very smooth and kinda mellow even when done by males showing off, there is a lot of pelvic work, and a kinda subtle or "lazy" footwork. I suspect that the jumping and hops that are essential elements of Turkish-style dancing may be an import from other Turkish folk dances.

And, speaking from my personal mistakes, I find that Turkish music makes me overdo it - I jump and hop and leap (and worse ...) unless I miraculously keep my emotions under control.

Originally Posted by steffib

Actually, Turkish Romani-style dancing is very smooth and kinda mellow even when done by males showing off, there is a lot of pelvic work, and a kinda subtle or "lazy" footwork. I suspect that the jumping and hops that are essential elements of Turkish-style dancing may be an import from other Turkish folk dances.

I've never seen anything but the dancers' version of Turkish Rom, and I'm used to thinking of it as big pelvic movements, emphatic hand gestures, and vehement, thrashy skirt work. I'm certainly open to the idea that what dancers think it's supposed to look like and what it actually is aren't the same thing, though. We've got too much cowbell in our Khaleeji, and it wouldn't be surprising if we made another overly enthusiastic mistake somewhere else.

We've got too much cowbell in our Khaleeji,

LOL...more cowbell!

You can have TOO MUCH cowbell? I disbelieve!

I have always wondered about this! But it's never seemed appropriate to ask because I feel like the question would come across, "Now, is this Turkish? Or does she just have bad technique?" Offensive to both Turkish dance in general and the individual dancer! But I think you're right. Bellydancers with jerky, aggressive hips are sometimes labeled Turkish, even when there is nothing identifiable as Turkish in the movement family or music.

I have never heard this from dancers, but I have heard this "poor technique = Turkish style dancing" many times from a group of older male Egyptian regulars at a restaurant where I perform.
They articulate it as sloppy movements plus leaning back plus overbearing and off beat zill playing.
Is this a case of "Egyptian dancers are always the best" line of thinking or maybe they have just had bad experiences watching Turkish dancers?

Hm, this is an essay that deserves many days to write, I highly recommend Artemis' article for everybody who has the time to read a more competent, well-written discussion: Turkish Dancing

But, the short answer is - yes, by and large, Turkish is rarer and less refined than Egyptian, which I am sure some audiences will call sloppy. Just consider one factor, the very different music: if you dance to the music played by a bunch of virtuoso Romani musicians from Sulukule who most likely did not have a formal musical education - versus dancing to a well-arranged carefully composed piece played by an orchestra comprised of conservatory-trained Egyptian musicians: it is a sign of a good dancer if the performance reflects the differences in the music, isn't it?

Originally Posted by steffib

And, speaking from my personal mistakes, I find that Turkish music makes me overdo it - I jump and hop and leap (and worse ...) unless I miraculously keep my emotions under control.

I have the same trouble with Turkish music, fast moving, I get jumpy and kind of go in to over drive.

Artemis' article is a definite must read- but as to the confusion about bad dancing vs turkish dancing- I have heard more than one Egyptian instructor call legitimate Turkish style vulgar, bad technique or just plain wrong- so that contributes to the missunderstanding- it is very sad to me when someone is quick to label something as wrong rather than different- cool, you like your style, but the rest of us can still appreciate other styles, recognizing the differences. & then we get the folks who just don't know what good Turkish dancing looks like- maybe they've heard about Turkish dancing but never actually seen it & made up something in their own minds, or with only partial info- I cringed when I heard a troupe leader say "we're doing Turkish gypsy- nothing has to match, the crazier the better" wrong on so many levels!

or maybe they saw some of those truly horrific Turkish videos that were never really meant to display Dance as such, if ya know what I mean.

Certainly dancers like Nesrin Topkapi & Sema Yildiz could never EVER be accused of bad technique- their technical skill is AMAZING. It is not Egyptian technique, but it is good stuff.

& yes, I get carried away in Turkish music too, & may make things too exaggerated at times. I do it with some Egyptian music too, for that matter. bad Lara.

So many contributing factors- bottom line, we need more good dancers out there to help define what good Turkish Oriental should look like, so that this pass-off of bad dancing=Turkish is not perpetuated further!

Here is another reason why Arabs may not appreciate Turkish - and it's that there are cultural differences we must understand as performers. Turkish dance remains close to its Romani roots, and that is especially true when a dancer uses Romani stylings and gestures during a 9. Turks will most likely recognize and enjoy that. In contrast, as I have heard Artemis say many times - "Don't do that for Arabs. They do not understand it."

Thanks for the article Steffib. I'll have to give it a good read when I get home tonight.

I guess this is kind of like the battles between Russian, French and Italian style ballet...

Everything in the article by Artemis is what I had been taught about the long history of Turkish dance, and discerning the difference between Egyptian and Turkish dance; I feel very lucky to have had a well informed and amazing Turkish instructor.

Frankly, one of the reasons Turkish dance is performed sloppily and with poor technique by some dancers is because it's really frickin' HARD! My butt got kicked all over the place when I was learning from a 50 year old lady who happily wiped the floor with me in our intensive private lessons. The few lessons I got to take with Kristnh of Portland, OR (an AMAZING Turkish dancer, and a student of Reyhan Tsuzi I believe) continued to confirm for me that if one is going to attempt Turkish dance you must have the ability to control yourself in your dance, or you will not be able to achieve the level of controlled, from the heart chaos that is Turkish Oriental dance....grasshopper...

hmmm I have seen technically bad Turkish style dancers, Lebanese style dancer, and so called "Egyptian Style" dancers...so it is not just Turkish style, I think if a dancer is not trained and skilled could be bad in any style...
also when Turkish style mentioned outside the Turkey it is usually associated with Roman style which is not even used widely in the night clubs as majority section of the show.
Turkish style is not all jerky, sharp, and not all loose, relax either. There is so much that could be done in Turkish style if trained properly, and like anywhere else, everyone's style is different. The new era dancers who tries to copy Didem widely spreading, but even Didem does not dance always the same. Dancers from 70s, 80s who I grow up with have different styles of course, bigger, looser more hips and floorwork...but there are bad dancers in that time too...and there is not much real orchestra produced TUrkish music out there in classical Turkish Oriyantal style unfortunately. They use a lot of Lebanese and Egyptian music and remix it with TUrkish drumming (which I love). So the music changed over the years as well.

Also I noticed the music I bought in TUrkey and have seen used by belly dancers here has a lot of folkloric style patterns to it, how I know, I grow up with and taken folk dance classes, those are the type of music that should be careful with. If the music changes from oriyantal to folkloric and back to oriyantal, we need to respect to music...just like when you hear saidi or khaledji you dont just belly dance but respect to the style...so same thing in Turkish style a lot of belly dance (so called ) cds have those combinations type of music where dancers use it wrongly.

Nope I cant say that I encounter that, as I only know a few Turkish style dancers and they have good technique. And I lean very heavily towards Turkish myself. I don't think my hip movements are sharp/jerky but they are definitely more aggressive than an Egyptian dancer. A lot of Turkish style dancers don't tuck their pelvis as much, Rom dancers often don't tuck at all and they have gritty pelvic movements. Romani can be very bold. Is this bad technique? I imagine a raks sharqi dancer who was trained to be soft and refined might think so. I feel like Turkish Oriental as well as Rom are organic and complimentary to how the body moves naturally. But certain elements of Turkish are a bit harder to master than Egyptian, for instance the music, as several of above posters have mentioned, is often fast and can overwhelm even an experienced dancer.

I do love Turkish music and have a real adoration of the slower, soulful melodies, usually done with a clarinet as the top instrument. I am afraid I will stroke out and die if I keep dancing to the fast stuff, in July, outdoors, in New Mexico, in heavy costume.

Originally Posted by turkishdancer

Also I noticed the music I bought in TUrkey and have seen used by belly dancers here has a lot of folkloric style patterns to it, how I know, I grow up with and taken folk dance classes, those are the type of music that should be careful with. If the music changes from oriyantal to folkloric and back to oriyantal, we need to respect to music...just like when you hear saidi or khaledji you dont just belly dance but respect to the style...so same thing in Turkish style a lot of belly dance (so called ) cds have those combinations type of music where dancers use it wrongly.

I think I said that before - I have that strong suspicion that the use of traditionally more folkloric tunes for belly dance is the dividing line between Turkish Oriental and Vintage Orientale/American Cabaret. (I have not yet had the chance to harass any Turkish folk dancers or Artemis about with my hypothesis, but Folktours is coming up, so the empirical test is waiting.)

Turkish melodies have the ability to make me melt.
I also am gulty of getting over excited on some tunes and try to restain myself fron it , cause the turkish dancers attitude is usually very cool not overexcited at all.
People tend to forget all the beautiful turkish pieces with clarinet, violin and kanoun that in no way call for jerky moves or skirt dacing.
Just calls for wonderful dancing.


Over here teachers talk bad about turkish style all the time, while most of the crowds after a show will say in their comments they enjoy the turkish pieces and then mention they also like the egyptian pieces, they often dont know any style in detail and react very well to Turkish. and might be bored with average generic egyptian piece done in similar ways by most dancers in a gala.
Most teachers just perpetuate the Turkish=bad and egyptian =good. I am so tired of that and for most teachers it is just a plain case of having their minds and eyes closed. You can like more or less a style but still recognize a good or bad performance.

One of my former teachers who dances in a often jerkey and energetic style to arabic music says she does "egyptian" but what she does is far from being "egyptian" in my eyes . she is good in my eyes cause it fits her personality .
When she sees me in a show she always tells me or my mom , your egyptian is so beautiful why you loose your time with the turkish stuff ( cause she just hates and talks bad about turkish stuff without knowing the style).

WTF like I shouldnt speak english or spanish cause I speak french ?? it just doesnt make sense. but she means it as a compliment every time and
it just doesnt make sense to me if I can be versatile and do one or the other according to my mood, venue and crowd. I keep working at getting better at both styles cause both styles are rich and challenging and both require good technique.

I have seen pretty vulgar stuff in Cairo and very tasteful and classy stuff in Istanbul.
Just think about the people talking bad about the Turkish costume ( worn in the 80's and early 90'smostly). they continue to think that Turkish costumes show tons of leg in those V shape belts . While anyone looking at anything Turkish now will notice that most dancers wear Bella or Bella style costumes and for yearsTurkish dancers have been way more covered than any dancer in cairo.

I could probably rant for hours about this ...

Turkish around here is pretty limited. But nobody seems to really bad mouth it, it just isn't very popular. I find myself being very interested, but not really having a ton of people to learn it from.

Of course the only Turkish dancers I've ever seen in person were Artemis and Ruby..so no bad technique going on there.

Is there anyone even going into Turkish styling? I only know of Artemis, Ava, etc.

Originally Posted by RaqOn

Is there anyone even going into Turkish styling? I only know of Artemis, Ava, etc.

It is not all that easy to find in this part of the country, my daughter stalks Artemis up and down the eastern seaboard. Deniz in Ohio has a good reputation. Amani Ali in Indiana is also supposed to be good.. daughter went to a workshop of hers but was a bit disconcerted when she perceived that Amani didn't feel comfortable with improv... seems hard to credit, maybe Ruric misunderstood something Amani said?

"Amani was honored by Artemis in 2004 to be named one of the top five of the new generation of Turkish dancers in the U.S., and was honored to be interviewed by Artemis for an article on this subject in the Sept./Oct. 2004 issue of "Zaghareet!" magazine."

So I guess there's at least five coming up!

I've noticed this phenomenon lately, too. It seems like a variation on the etiquette that rather than criticize a person's technique you should just say that they dance a different style from you. Perhaps Turkish is the go-to "other" style because most posters on the board do Egyptian or American Oriental? I agree that using "her style is very... Turkish" as a euphemism doesn't help Turkish Oriental's image.

Jessaiah Zure is a Turkish Roman-style dancer who comes to mind. She's based in NYC.

Originally Posted by RaqOn

Is there anyone even going into Turkish styling? I only know of Artemis, Ava, etc.

My teacher Careesah has a very heavily Turkish influenced vintage orientale kind of style, which I've absorbed a lot of through osmosis. Aszmara, Dalia Carella and Anahid Sofian of NYC also come to mind. Turkish is not completely dead in my little pocket of the Northeast!

That's why I'm floored that people would even equate bad dancing and Turkish dancing. I'm lucky because I've been exposed to a lot of beautiful Turkish style. Good Turkish dance has the same qualities as good Egyptian. The dancing works with the music. The dancer paces herself even when moving fast. And there are still pauses, poses and gooey parts. Musical interpretations may be different, but isn't that something we should try to appreciate and understand before we write it off? What if we devoted just as much time to understanding how Turkish dancers interpret their music as we do to the way Egyptians hear things? We might find ourselves pleasantly surprised....or at least a bit more open minded.

It just makes me kind of sad that so few dancers even make an effort to seek out Turkish style and watch it more carefully. Shouldn't we want to explore our dance heritage from ALL angles, rather than simply following the trends?

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

It just makes me kind of sad that so few dancers even make an effort to seek out Turkish style and watch it more carefully. Shouldn't we want to explore our dance heritage from ALL angles, rather than simply following the trends?

Amen sista.

Well, I have several reasons for NOT pursuing Turkish style.

1) The music does not appeal to me as strongy.
2) I'm big and tall with huge boobs. It tends to be quite jumpy and fast, which is not a good look on me.
3) I'm 46 this year, Turkish oryantal tends to be very athletic. I like that I am internally strong but I don't want to have to start working out to have the athleticism required to do Turkish dance
4) I would rather continue deepening and refining the knowledge and skills I have than go back to being a useless beginner dancer after 12 years, at the age of 46.

So guess what, when I pursue Egyptian dance I'm not following the "trend" that started in the US what, 20 years ago? I'm being conservative, in a way, because I am going further into what I started learning years ago. I've only adjusted my posture, I don't have to relearn it. I'm interested to learn 9/8 and I really like Turkish Rom, but I am not going to turn myself into a Turkish dancer because it's now fashionable.

Because it is fashionable.

If I were a bandwagon jumper I'd have dutifully dumped oriental dance and joined the "tribal fusion" brigade. The fact my oriental dance is more strongly Egyptian than anything else (though it is far from purely Egyptian) is a reflection of what I *like* and the music I like. So please let's not slag off people who like Egyptian and please let's not call Egyptian a "trend" like it only became cool to like it six months ago.

Ouch. I'm sorry but that was a little harsh. I have big boobs and I'm in the same boat Zum and I can't do a lot of jumping because I have cysts but that doesn't stop my interest in learning the dance. And counterproductive to say the same thing about the "tribal fusion brigade". And I'm 100% an Egyptian style dancer follower because the music calls to me and I enjoy it, not because it's popular. I don't think I read into Satin's comment the way that you did.

Back to topic, sharp movements does not necessarily equal Turkish, and I guess that's my issue.