Thread: Oriental v. Tribal Choreography

I am working on a choreography for a duet in June. Due to time constraints I am going to do the choreography and teach it to the Tribal dancer (she's mainly ATS). The dance is to Alf Leila Wa Leila and it is going to be a direct juxtaposition of the two dance styles. I think I've talked about this a couple of times here on bhuz before.

Anyway, the problem is that I don't know any tribal moves and I'm not sure what moves would translate well. I don't want to choreograph something and then have my friend tell me that it won't work for tribal. Where can I get started on learning basic tribal moves? Are there some YouTube video tutorials that you would suggest?

Thanks!

I don't know about Youtube tutorials. I am sure the more ATS/ITS focused dancers here would know better. I would have advised you to get the FCBD DVDs but I see that your time is too short for that. Is there no option for you and the ATS dancer to get together and have her show you some of her go-to moves? I'm not sure there's any way for you to choreograph for an ATS dancer without at least understanding a bit about what the basic movements are and how to do them.

We won't be able to see each other for two weeks or more because of scheduling. I am off for vacation so I won't have time for a private lesson with an ATS teacher, but I can always bring a video or something with me.

There is lots of stuff on Youtube!

do you have the bdss folie bergere dvd? the group numbers at the beginning and end have both tribal and oriental dancers doing similar choreography. i think its kind of neat to see how each style does a maya or an undulation. similar but different!

Do you guys both have web cams? that way you guys can still show each other moves without actually having to be in the same room.

I would talk to Christina King, she teaches a Tribal for Cabaret dancers workshop which I've taken and think is excellent at breaking down the main differences in styles. She performs both styles herself so maybe she can give some insight.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

and it is going to be a direct juxtaposition of the two dance styles.

I'm probably misunderstanding, because I missed the other posts regarding this dance.

But wouldn't this fall under the 'if you're going to fuse two things, make sure you know them really, really well' umbrella?

Forgive me, maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate, but is this the Tribal equivalent of a jazz dancer saying 'I want to do a jazz & bellydance piece that is a direct juxtaposition of the two styles. Are there any youtube clips where I can pick up a couple of bellydance moves real quick?'

Perhaps the tribal dancer should be working on the tribal portion of the choreo while you work on the Egyptian part? (or whatever the second style is that you're using, I assumed Egyptian since you're doing Om Kalthoum)

Hey Lauren,
I am NOT attempting to do any tribal moves at all. My tribal friend won't do any Oriental moves. The idea is that if the choreo calls for say hip drops, I will do the Oriental style and she will do the tribal style. Make sense? I just want to make sure that the moves I use will work for both style.

I don't think they do hip drops...

I think, frankly, you're going to struggle here, because the two dance vocabularies are so different, and the way one puts moves together in each vary so much. As Zumarrad says, some moves don't even exist in tribal vocabulary!

If you are going to write the choreo on your own, I suggest you make it as vague as possible, rather than trying to second-guess whether there will be a tribal equivalent to the moves you write.

Most ATS moves belong in two categories- slow (torso rotations, bodywaves, tribal arms, taqsims (myas) etc.) and fast (all the shimmies, shoulder triplets, hip bumps, all the choo-choos). My teaching is that you don't usually switch between fast and slow moods but if you're doing a fusion performance all bets are off.

If you write a choreo for yourself, and indicate clearly which moves are slower, which are faster, when you're moving around the stage and where (bear in mind most ats moves can only be done in one direction)then that might provide enough scope for her to work her own stuff round it, rather than being all 'clockwise spins followed by hip lifts? I can't do that!'

[disclaimer- I'm fairly new to ATS and learning an English variant, so I'm no authority on the subject]

I know what I would be inclined to do is get your tribal dancer to create her tribal things - do it maybe as a she-said/she-said duet with one or two places where you'll come together doing similar movements in your own ways.

MY disclaimer is that I haven't studied tribal - by which I mean actual ATS based tribal, not TF which seems to be able to be anything) but I've seen a lot of it and I also, for a year or so, taught a class directly after a tribal class, so I would often sit in and watch the previous class being taught. That gave me a feeling for what they do, albeit very superficial.

Here is my Not! Tribal tribal movements analysis:

Tribal dancers don't travel very much. They just don't walk around the place like we do. They do seem to have a shimmy walk which is 3/4 up and done on demi pointe, and there's a nice combination that I see tribal dancers do where they come forward with, from memory, double hip bumps (that's what you guys call them? they are hip rocks to me) on either side, from memory two of those on each side, followed by a shimmy walk backwards. (two counts of eight for the whole thing). You could Modern Egyptify that...

Other movements they do that we do versions of are maias, vertical 8s, lower body camels (which are done on demi), and they use thrusts rather than drops. There are very specific rules though about when you do slow moves and when you do fast ones, and they don't make organic sense to us. A tribal dancer once told me in a shocked voice that they couldn't do their slow moves to some music that was playing because it was too fast. But not fast enough for fast moves. I'm like but why wouldn't you do some snake arms and vertical 8s here - where it made perfect sense to me - and she's like NOOOO not in tribal!

I agree this is really a project you need to do physically together, to make it work. If you had time, you could send her the music and go "OK do tribal moves to this!" watch the vid and then work out where it would work for you and where it would not. Because you actually have more freedom within your music than she does, if she's going to keep it looking like actual ATS/GC influenced dance, so you need to let her find her good bits.

Does the music have to be Alf Leyla?

It seems like that really puts the tribal dancer totally out of her musical element.

Originally Posted by ValerieVengeance

(bear in mind most ats moves can only be done in one direction)then that might provide enough scope for her to work her own stuff round it, rather than being all 'clockwise spins followed by hip lifts? I can't do that!'

does your partner do any ITS? Valerie is correct about strict ATS (to my knowledge) but blacksheep format can be done in both directions. if she has some experience with that it might give you some more wiggle room for the two of you to work with.
i'd try to collaborate with her via webcam rather than learn smidges of tribal and do it yourself. it could end up looking like watching a really good Egyptian style dancer and then a beginner tribal troupe, and end up showing your relative experience with each style rather than the stylistic differences.

Originally Posted by ssipes

Does the music have to be Alf Leyla?

It seems like that really puts the tribal dancer totally out of her musical element.

That too... I hadn't read the OP again and forgot about the song choice.

Alf Leyla...call me weird, but I can see it. A good call and response theme, the ATS gals picking up the front and center during the more skeletal percussive bits during the long trumpet passage after the break. LekaDum leka tek leka tek - I hope you are doing the 7 minute version.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYKqH8xIaaw&mode=related&search=&fmt=18]YouTube - Tribal Style Bellydance[/ame]

Thanks for the video clip, Fahira. The version of the song that I picked is from the Middle Earth Ensemble. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's a fully orchestrated version. It sounds more earthy and tribally to me, than say the Cairo Orchestra.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Alf-Leyla-Wa/dp/B00120JBW0/ref=dm_ap_trk3?ie=UTF8&qid=1277651991&sr=301-1]Amazon.com: Alf Leyla Wa Leyla: Middle-Earth Ensemble: MP3 Downloads[/ame]

And I guess ATS was too specific. I suppose my friend does do TF. Because if one is strictly ATS that means no choreography, right?

Example:
Video - Twilight Tribal Bellydance NC
My friend is in three of these videos, in the first one she is wearing the purple skirt.

ETA: Thanks everyone for all of you help.

I agree that the MEE version of the song sounds more earthy, though I still dont know that I would choose it for Tribal (whether ATS or Fusion). However, there are quite a few sections of that song that COULD be played up as call and answer, which (as someone else posted) might suit your needs better than too much joint choreography (maybe you both dance together on the "shimmy sections" or do traveling hip bumps - which both genres do - on the "traveling sections" and do the rest with alot of call and answer).

Aw shucks, Tanya... thanks!

I do like the idea of the tribal and oriental dancer working together, even if remotely. I think it would be really hard for you to choreograph in the other style if you don't have any tribal training. The movement vocabulary comes from the same place, but then takes a hard left stylistically. There are *some* moves that translate pretty well across with just an arm change or two to differentiate them, but without knowing what each dancer's vocabulary is, I'd have no idea where to suggest starting out.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

I would talk to Christina King, she teaches a Tribal for Cabaret dancers workshop which I've taken and think is excellent at breaking down the main differences in styles. She performs both styles herself so maybe she can give some insight.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I don't think they do hip drops...

sure we do! I just don't know how I'd describe a tribal style hip drop vs an oriental style one. That's a move that's pretty consistent across the board.

ATS has a pretty limited format, but when ATS dancers solo, I've seen just about every move an Oriental dancer does. I joke to my students all the time that any bellydance move can be "tribalized". It's not that we use a huge different variety of movements or there are some things we just don't do. There's just a lot of "we just don't do it like that". For the most part, I wouldn't think there are any real restrictions there.

However, for stylistic influence, I'd say hop on YouTube and watch every tribal video you can find, just to get more of a feel of what looks and feels a little more tribal. It may help you get a bit more direction.

Originally Posted by mihri

sure we do! I just don't know how I'd describe a tribal style hip drop vs an oriental style one. That's a move that's pretty consistent across the board.

That's amazing. I can't remember ever seeing a tribal performance where I saw a hip drop! Thrusts/lifts, yes. Can you link some footage? I'd love to see it.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

That's amazing. I can't remember ever seeing a tribal performance where I saw a hip drop! Thrusts/lifts, yes. Can you link some footage? I'd love to see it.

Well, it would be cheating to put my own troupe's video up here, but here's the Indigo doing several in one number... enjoy!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhHQ_xuSXI8"]YouTube- The Indigo Live at Tribal Fest 9[/ame]

Oh, so they are. By tribal I tend to mean ATS I guess, not the fusion stuff so much... thanks for the clarification.

For what it's worth, there's no difference in technique based on what I see there. Of course there's not just ONE oriental way to do a hip drop, but based on the way I learned initially, same thing.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

That's amazing. I can't remember ever seeing a tribal performance where I saw a hip drop! Thrusts/lifts, yes. Can you link some footage? I'd love to see it.

Personally, I love hip drops. It was one of the first moves I learned. I teach my students hip drops and I use them in our beginner's choreographies. There's also an ATS move that kind of uses a hip drop. It's an "up, up, down, down, down". I don't know if there is any other name! However, you lift twice, slightly forward, then drop three times like steps, turning slightly back. I'll have to see if I can find a video, but it will have to wait until I can have access to net good enough for streaming video.

One thing I love about ATS/ITS is you can put a cue on everything. Look at Unmata, for example. A lot of what they do is a huge divergence from classic ATS. (Actually, I believe they're the ones that coined ITS, Improv Tribal Style). Because of that, there's a huge variety of movements used. For example, Ariellah and Rachel Brice both review hip drops on their DVDs. I think Sera does too on the East Coast Tribal DVD, and possibly Darshan on hers. I don't remember. You can tell how much I review with videos that I can't remember what's on the ones I own!

That's kind of the hard thing with tribal. There isn't really a generic kind of tribal. Even Fat Chance Bellydance has been spoken of as doing choreography on occasion as suits the need for the venue. Many ATS and ITS troupes I know do, despite their "all improv, all the time" reputation. I think tribal is possibly as wide and varied as cabaret in the style department.

As for what tribal dancers don't do that cabaret dancers do, I think there are probably some who don't use all the same movements, but I've found for the most part, it's the same vocabulary unless you're looking at strictly moves in the ATS format. Those are obviously limited for a reason. I'm sure there are some tribal dancers that don't use all the same movements, but it's a pretty good bet that we do.

Okay, that was long winded and wordy. I hope that made sense. I think maybe my brain isn't all here today.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Oh, so they are. By tribal I tend to mean ATS I guess, not the fusion stuff so much... thanks for the clarification.

For what it's worth, there's no difference in technique based on what I see there. Of course there's not just ONE oriental way to do a hip drop, but based on the way I learned initially, same thing.

As Kisaya said below, there is an ATS combo that uses drops... I don't have specific footage of it though.

I'm cheating again, but my troupe creates our own combos for improv and our most recent "collection" has been saiidi inspired... lots of hip drops there!

Then again, everyone in my troupe studies/has studied Egyptian style. It's one of our requirements.

Here's footage of Fat Chance. They use hip drop combos at 4:17 and 5:28 (but not the one Kisaya told you about... sorry!)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEzgJMKH2hc]YouTube - Fat Chance Belly Dance 7/25/09 pt 1[/ame]