Thread: teaching someone elses choreography in class?

Do you do this?
Up untill now, I've only worked with my own choreographies. (beginners and level 2)
But I might start a level 3 group with my more advanced students in september. And I thought it would be refreshing and more challenging for them if I teach them something created by other dancers. Like a Jillina choreo from one of her instructional dvds, or something I learned in a workshop.
So they learn something other then my style.
Is this "ok" to do?
Some of the teachers I've studied with used to do this a lot. But I'm not sure...

personal take as a student- if I am studying with you, it is because I WANT to learn your style of dance. I can buy the DVD myself for a lot cheaper than I can take classes- offer me something I can't get on the DVD! I do expect you to assimilate what you learn in workshops into your own teaching, especially if it is something that is otherwise inaccessible to me. If it is a performance class, bordering on a student troupe, I don't see a problem with learning a choreography from a workshop that *you have specific permission* to use with your troupe, I also don't see a problem with teaching your students to analyze videos of other dancers- critical thinking to get the most out of a video is a learned skill- but in general, I like it when instructors make it their own before passing on information.

Maybe ask yourself what exactly it is you want your students to learn from these other choreographies- is it something you can address in another way? have you soaked up enough of this particular style that you *can* teach more than just the steps by rote?

Personally, I've always used my own choreographies. I use moves and combinations that I learn in workshops, to give my students a taste of other teachers, but in 16 years of teaching, I've only ever used one choreo from another teacher.

I wouldn't use a choreo from a readily available dvd, because students might already *have* the dvd!

I use my own choreography a lot of the time.

I've also pulled a combo or two from an instructional dvd then told everyone where to buy the dvd to get more from that artist.

I have also recreated and taught choreography from famous dancers that are either dead (like Samia Gamal) or a little different in style now and/or less accessible (like young Mona Said or Fifi Abdo).

I've reviewed workshop content fresh after a workshop with my class (often several people in the class took the same workshop and appreciate the refresher, so we all can retain more material).

I've also had my students choose a choreography from a famous dancer they admire and they work to recreate it, therefore expanding their own skills, and I helped them with the content they chose. The rule being that they couldn't choose a local dancer, and learning the dance was for educational purposes only. We did perform these at a hafla, but naming the inspirations, the theme of the hafla was "in honor of".

But we always return after that to creating our own content, relying on the lessons we learned from the dancers we had mimicked. I feel like the practice has enhanced the skills of many of my students and each in unique ways and expanded my skills and dance vocabulary as well.

I do this much more with my advanced students.

I've never taught a full choreography that was available on an instructional DVD. I figured, they can always buy that dvd, why should they pay me to teach it to them.

I would happily teach another's choreo to my regular class, providing I had the relevant permissions. But I am more of a workshop teacher than weekly teacher and I really like choreographing so while it does happen, it would be rare for me to use someone else's choreo.

Originally Posted by Lara L

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Maybe ask yourself what exactly it is you want your students to learn from these other choreographies- is it something you can address in another way? have you soaked up enough of this particular style that you *can* teach more than just the steps by rote?

hmm you are giving me something to think about here...

I love creating my own choreographies, it comes natural. And I have enough material. I also try to integrate the things I've learned in workshops in new choreos.
But yes, when I decide to create a more challenging class, I definitely want it to be much more then just teaching them the steps.
It got me thinking on how I can do this... and I guess I thought teaching the material of other dancers would help.

I guess what I'm really looking for is a way that helps them to dance more from the inside, to help them integrate the dance in their bodies and be creative with the moves.

I got a lot to chew on this summer ;-)

You should ask the choreo creator's permission to do this (and expect the answer to be no IMO).

Generally, when you pay to learn someone else's choreo (for example, you buy Jillinia's DVD or take a workshop from her), you have purchased permission to dance it yourself, but teaching it to other people is a whole different matter. I would think that this generally would NOT be part of what you are paying for in the above scenarios.

I would also think that dancers who have made a name for themselves are not going to want their choreos to be taught through someone who didn't study with them over an extended time, but rather learned something from a DVD or workshop. If everyone did this, it would erode their own market for workshops/DVDs, plus they lose control of how the moves and choreos get taught.

It would be different if it was a choreo from a colleague with whom you have an extensive, mutually trusting relationship. If/when teachers teach other people's choreo's, it probably springs from this type of situation.

Never ever from a DVD, they can buy that and it's hovering dangerously close to theft. But here, it's considered OK to teach choreographies you have learned from visiting master teachers and especially ones you've learned overseas.

If you have a relationship with the choreographer it's good to ask. At the school where I worked we were required to create choreos and paid for them, and those choreos became property of the school, which could be revived by subsequent teachers.

Senior teachers are usually honest about whether they want their material shared by someone else for their own profit, and I agree with the others that it's hard to imagine a situation where someone who has an active DVD on the market would want you to make money off their efforts, especially with the risk that the second teacher lacks the skills to do it as well as they do. I'd say the same about workshops. I feel that it can be an infringement of a workshop teacher's intellectual property to teach their content in a regular class, and that it discourages students from going to the original workshop if they know they can get a cheaper facsimile of the experience in regular class.

I can see exceptions for the works of dancers who do not teach at all (dead or firmly retired) or who do not teach conveniently (some non-famous dancer you had the serendipity to meet and study with on a trip to Egypt), and footage that is not commercially available (fieldwork or out-of-print titles) or in the public domain. Whenever possible, you still have an ethical obligation to get permission of the copyright owner, though. OTOH, teachers of the highest caliber/rarest circumstances tend to be more open to sharing their material than lower tiers of experts. Mahmoud Reda understands that every student in your weekly classes can't travel hundreds of miles to catch one of his tour stops, and he's in it for the legacy now, so he expects his material will be propagated (unless he specifically says otherwise).

From a student perspective, a teacher's over-reliance on widely available DVDs has a certain whiff of laziness, if not incompetence, to it. "Why can't you teach something new, instead of something I could buy just as easily as you did?" If a teacher has to make a habit of poaching someone else's work to fill up their classes, I think they need to re-evaluate whether they have the expertise and ethics to be teaching. If you really want to recreate a choreography from a DVD as a class or troupe, the most ethical solution is requiring each student to buy their own copy, work privately for a while, and then come together for the polishing. If it's a good enough routine to want to learn and perform, it's good enough to want to buy.

I'd personally be VERY angry if I paid for a full session of classes and then discovered I was being taught something I could have gotten from a DVD for $20 or less.

I do teach a couple of other people's choreographies. One is from my first teacher. I have both HER permission and the permission of my former troupe director (because at one time it was used as a troupe choreography) to teach it. All of my students know who choreographed it, although they haven't met her.

I also have two choreos that were created by my daughter as works-for-hire, and I teach them. Again, always with credit, I have permission, and I paid for the choreos.

I have also taught a choreography by Faten Salama. BUT it was after all my troupe members attended her workshop & paid to learn it from her, and it was clearly a group choreography that she was teaching. I only taught it in order to polish it, bring us all onto the same page where we were uncertain, and decide on our staging for performance,

On the other hand...

As a non choreographer, I feel it is a valuable tool for me. I would never teach a "workshop" using a borrowed choreo, but in regular class, as an addition to other drills, etc. I don't see a big problem. Bless all of you who are talented in this area, but for lots of reasons too complicated to go into here, I am not. I am an improv dancer and always will be.

To me, this is a bit like expecting a piano teacher to teach only their original compositions, or never giving any respect to a good cover band. The skill set needed to be a good choreographer may coincide with those of a good dancer or teacher, but not always. Teaching an existing choreo to beginners and intermediates requires that the teacher break down the moves to an extreme degree, gain an insight to that dancers methodology and "feel". I would never consider doing this with advanced students, and I don't teach advanced students. To quote Scheherazade from Florida (a wonderful old school dancer) I consider myself a foundational teacher. If you need more, you must seek it out for yourself. The idea of teaching an uninspired and flat choreo for the sake of claiming originality is depressing. I suppose I could stick to drills and then teach how to improvise, but that would not be satisfying to many of my students who can take years to work up to doing improv without puking.

I never teach someone else's full choreography, but sometimes if a take a workshop and the choreo is super cute, I'll teach part of it (maybe the first 40 seconds or so) in a single evening's class. And even then, I'll usually change some parts - make them more challenging, or less challenging, or just switch to something I like better with the music.

Any time I do this, I of course credit the original choreographer, and let the students know where I'm diverting from what was taught in the workshop.

I don't teach full choreographies in my regular classes though, just for my student troupe which is separate from my Beginning and Level 2 class. So with my format, I don't have the challenge of coming up with several, multi-level choreographies a year. We do about 3-4 choreos per year, all of which are my original creation.

Originally Posted by anala

On the other hand...

As a non choreographer, I feel it is a valuable tool for me. I would never teach a "workshop" using a borrowed choreo, but in regular class, as an addition to other drills, etc. I don't see a big problem. Bless all of you who are talented in this area, but for lots of reasons too complicated to go into here, I am not. I am an improv dancer and always will be.

I don't think it's necessary for a teacher to choreograph.

Just don't steal other people's work, and for goodness sake, don't steal other people's work and SELL it!!!

Teach someone else's choreo -- but do it ONLY with their permission, and INSIST on paying them for it.

I also recently traded with a very gifted student. Months of free classes for her, awesome new sword choreo for my troupe. Simple solution for two broke individuals. ..l;,

Another reason I don't like to teach full choreos from workshops is that I don't want my students to get into the habit of thinking, "Well, why should I bother paying for the workshop, when Galatea will just teach it to us anyway for my regular weekly class fee?" I like to share just enough from workshops to wet their whistle, and hopefully encourage them to invest the money and the time for the full experience.

It would not occur to me to do that in my own classes. I mean, I have taught my teacher's choreographies for her in her studio ( either as a sub or because she handed it off to one of us to teach) but that's different from what you are talking about.

Like a couple of other people have mentioned, I would be at the least weirded out to discover (or even be told upfront) that my teacher was essentially teaching a workshop or DVD chorey in regular classes.

If you're going to work with advanced students ( different from peers in a collective at the same level...then if y'all wanted to revive or puttpgether a workshop chorey for performance that's a different discussion) then hopefully you are comfortable leading them in advanced combos or an advanced chorey of your own making. If you're not..then maybe you shouldn't have an advanced class quite yet?

Originally Posted by laura 2

Another reason I don't like to teach full choreos from workshops is that I don't want my students to get into the habit of thinking, "Well, why should I bother paying for the workshop, when Galatea will just teach it to us anyway for my regular weekly class fee?" I like to share just enough from workshops to wet their whistle, and hopefully encourage them to invest the money and the time for the full experience.

You and I think so much alike it almost creeps me out sometimes. ..l;,

I've been frustrated with how few of my students attend workshops. I decided it was in part because I DON'T perform the choreos learned and often incorporate a new move or combo into their next troupe choreo, so they may *think* they're getting the benefit of the workshop?

So I'm starting to perform more workshop choreos. I fell in love with one Aziza taught last year, and so did the one student who attended the workshop with me. We've been performing it as a duet (which also means she's gotten extra teacher attention in the form of rehearsal time together) Lo and behold, my other students have been turning out for more workshops since then. Coincidence? maaaaaaybeeeee....

Originally Posted by shimarella

If you're going to work with advanced students ( different from peers in a collective at the same level...then if y'all wanted to revive or puttpgether a workshop chorey for performance that's a different discussion) then hopefully you are comfortable leading them in advanced combos or an advanced chorey of your own making. If you're not..then maybe you shouldn't have an advanced class quite yet?

I wondered about this, in relation to the material mentioned. Does Jillina even have any advanced videos out? I thought her material was mostly pretty accessible to a level 1 or 2 student (depending on how the levels are being handled, of course).

Originally Posted by Lauren_

You and I think so much alike it almost creeps me out sometimes. ..l;,

There's no one I'd rather creep out than you! Wait a minute, I think that came out wrong. You know what I mean!

I use steps, combinations, ideas, to teach students about the styles of famous dancers, but not full choreographies.

If it's about providing your students with something that is challenging enough, and you feel you cannot provide a challenging enough more advanced choreography, I think you should either pay a choreographer to make you one, or, teach this class in other ways?
Or not teach a more advanced level untill you do feel comfortable with it?

Her (Jillina) DVD 1,2, and 3 get progressively more difficult in some rather subtle ways. The tempo quickens, the spins become much faster, the weight shifts become more subtle, the footwork becomes more complex (as well as the amount of layering) and the overall athleticism of the moves become much more strenuous. Her other DVDs (Modern Lebanese, etc. will make your eyes pop as you try to faithfully recreate the choreography). As a dedicated hobbyist/teacher in a remote location with very little access to more proficient teachers than myself, these DVDs give me a valuable resource. Don't get me wrong, I have (and will continue) to spend a considerable amount of blood sweat and tears taking from very competent instructors, but those are only 2 or 3 per year. I do pretty good with what I have, and with what I can do, and I don't try to teach beyond my capabilities, and am honest about that with my students. My first teacher (who has become my student) told my recently I was a great beginners teacher. That is enough for me, for right now.

I"m only familiar with her 1,2,3 and drum solo choreos, and I didn't recall the layering (maybe I missed the third one?) so I didn't know.

I feel a little guilty, like I've been skirting propriety by reviewing workshop material in class. It is true a good 50% of that class was at the original workshop and we only spent one class on it total not weeks of learning, nor did we perform it, and I only did it the one time and justify, justify, justify... But maybe that was a no-no. I repent.

I will still teach technique and possible small combos I pulled out of a choreography workshop though. What's the point of all that learning if I can't share at least some of it?

I"m only familiar with her 1,2,3 and drum solo choreos

One of the layered moves in her early drum solo DVDs is a leg shimmy with 2 stomach pops on top, followed by a shoulder shimmy on top of a full body down undulation in a six count, 7 and 8 to change diagonal and repeat.

I once again hold to the idea that to teach an art student to copy a master work is a valid learning tool. A good cover band is a joy, and not every orchestra is performing their maestros original composition.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I'd personally be VERY angry if I paid for a full session of classes and then discovered I was being taught something I could have gotten from a DVD for $20 or less.

I don't think I've ever paid that little for a choreography DVD.

A year or so back I sold a student a choreography DVD of a workshop I had been to. The idea was she would study it on her own and extend her repetoire - and I'd get something different for my show.

It didn't work. There are people out there who simply cannot learn from a DVD. After about 6 months I took pity on her and she picked one choreography and we did that in class. She could use the video to check the sequence and timing but she was unable to watch it and work out what was going on. So, yes, I was adding value by charging her for classes to teach her a choreography she already had on DVD.

It certainly is normal here to teach workshop choreographies in class. Personally I never teach one that was taught in my own city. First because if it's local I expect my students to attend. But secondly because every other teacher who was there will be teaching it and every one will be performing it.

For beginners I always use my own choreographies. But for those who need a little more push, yes I'll use something I've learnt in a workshop. But 95% of what I learn I do not share.

The most common choreographies I use are folkloric ones taught by first hand people such as Denise Enan, Mo Gedaawi or Aida Nour. These people have spent decades absorbing and distilling the styles. Anything I do is likely to be off. I don't mind doing my own sa`iidi or melaya lef for myself, but I think when teaching you need to be 100% sure you are on the button. Otherwise you get that Chinese whispers effect when you see debke done to Alexandrian music with cane and labelled sa`iidi ,f::

Chinese whispers effect

New one!! Whats that?

Chinese Whispers is a game where you whisper a phrase to someone, they whisper it to the next and so on and so forth. The last person says what they heard and it's invariably wildly different to what the original person said.

I guess the name is quite racist...

With instructor's permission why not? I wouldn't do it all the time, but throwing in a bit of another dancer's style from time to time might be very refreshing both to you and your students. The last three workshops I took with Orit she urged us to teach the choreos to our students, because quote: "You learn something best by teaching it". Unfortunately at the moment I can't implement her advice with my students, as her choreos are not for beginners. But I created my choreos that are easy for them to digest and that incorporate some of her signature moves. And of course, I don't forget to credit her.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Chinese Whispers is a game where you whisper a phrase to someone, they whisper it to the next and so on and so forth. The last person says what they heard and it's invariably wildly different to what the original person said.

I guess the name is quite racist...

When I was little, I think we called that game "Telephone."

was going to write a medium-lengthy reply, then saw Shems's post (nr 4) and can only say 'This' to it all. I offer the same in my classes, with proper references given as well, and indeed balanced with other material. Students do appreciate it, and they as well as I learn a lot from it.

"You learn something best by teaching it".

This is very true. I know that deeply analyzing the choreos I use, giving all credit to the writer, has helped me enormously. Without a teacher myself, this has been way to work out my body dyslexia and sharpen its left/right memory skills. The ultimate goal for me is to develop my skills to the point where I am able to create my own good choreos in due time, rather than adding on to or modifying the existing ones. It may take years..but it is a goal.