Thread: Getting into the minds of other instructors as far as putting not ready students on stage

Ok, yesterday we attended our local festival in San Diego and granted and accepted, the festival is for all commers and spots are given on a sign up basis so no pre-requisite of ability is required or expected. However, I have to say(and I want opinons from the Bhuz bunch as instructors) why we feel the need to put totally unprepared and unrehearsed student performances out on public stages before they are obviously ready. I am not talking about the occassional forgetten moves or look of stage fright but the overall lack of knowing the choreo or knowing how to posture, present or even stand in the back ground and smile. Are we as instructors afraid to tell someone that they are not ready to perform and that perhaps the thing that is in the students best interest is to wait until the next event and work on their skills a bit more?
It seems to me that this borders on inflating egos way before abilty is there.

It seems to me that this borders on inflating egos way before abilty is there.
Maybe they just dont know how to say a nice easy ...not yet....

Originally Posted by patrisha

It seems to me that this borders on inflating egos way before abilty is there.

Or in some cases, maybe the teachers might want to inflate their own egos, as well. I think a handful of teachers out there might feel that it reflects positively on themselves to have students at the performing level, whether or not the students really are ready to get out there and do it.

Man, that would make me feel totally incompetent as a teacher.

I think teachers are afraid to be truthful with their students. What they don't seem to realize is that if their students don't look good, it reflects on the teacher.

Originally Posted by anala

Man, that would make me feel totally incompetent as a teacher.

Completely agree! The best compliment I can ever receive is when someone tells me my student troupe is awesome!

Originally Posted by bintbeled

I think teachers are afraid to be truthful with their students.

I agree. I have stories about the drama that can ensue when one is truthful...

I suppose it depends on your event and how many there are, but I think it can be a great learning experience. Say an inexperienced student really wants to do a solo but has bad posture, and they perform. When they ask for feedback and 20 people say, "I really liked [varied opinion], but you've got to work on your posture!" well, that will surely be a stronger message than the instructor's quick, "Tuck!" reminder in class!

It would be truly cringe-worthy as an instructor, fearing that a bad student performance would present poorly on the instructor's abilities, but at a fun community event (unless there is a slough of awful amateurs) then I would just suck it up and consider it part of the territory. It seems like rather than figuring out how tell a student she isn't ready and why, I would rather the instructor bear the shame and help her be a better performer.

And isn't remembering your earliest public performances with embarrassment a common experience for many dancers?! :)

Originally Posted by Roeska

I think it can be a great learning experience.

That's what student recitals are for.

Oh Roseka, I totally disagree with you. The venue that is appropriate for the type of performance you are talking about is not an open to the public event where an entrace fee is paid. That type of first performance (and we have ALL had them) should be in the confines of a strictly student show where people have the where-with-all to introduce themselves as students and not give the introduction that in any way would insinuate that the performer (s) were anything more than that. As an instructor, I feel that I have a responsibility to be honest and actually not promote mediocracy even on a sudent level. We NEED to say no at times. I think it can be said with tack and understanding but still get your point across. I know too that sometimes an instructor will do just this and a student will not take the advice or guidence, not much you can do about that. I have had a few instances where I have actually told a student that if they insist on performing, "Dont tell anyone I am your teacher" Harsh? In regards to your comment that the student may get feed back that will help them, who are they gonna ask? Honestly, they will ask friends and family members or dancers that are at their level and they will tell them "Oh you were fabulous" hence my point of artifically inflated ego before ability.

Yeah, you guys convinced me. Especially if people are paying money. I suppose that telling a student to perform at student recitals first in order to ultimately perform in public isn't saying no at all, it's saying, yes-let's work to get there! And if at that point a student refused you and said she would sign up anyway, I suppose, "Don't tell anyone I'm your teacher," would be deserved.

We are, of course, pre assuming that the teachers had anything to do with the students performing. Sometimes the students simply choose to perform with out talking to their teachers. I know that my first showcases were like that. But that was also because the teacher I had didn't believe in community involvement because she was concerned with her students leaving her. But that is another thread.

In the case of teachers who not only know their students are going to perform but also encourage them no matter what their level, I think there are many things going on, no the least of which is there not being places appropriate for the students to perform. If you are a teacher who rents out a studio space two classes a week, you may not be invited to be part of the student recital. And if you are small and not networked, local belly dance community haflas may not be available. Yes, it would be nice to start and support your own, but many people don't have the time, energy, resources to do so. This is why I believe many teachers don't spend more energy suggesting that their less than prepared students aren't ready and should wait to perform.

But that is also my theory on why we see so much Western Music and faux belly dance at so many community events. . .

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by *Shira*

That's what student recitals are for.

this.

Originally Posted by Roeska

I suppose it depends on your event and how many there are, but I think it can be a great learning experience. Say an inexperienced student really wants to do a solo but has bad posture, and they perform. When they ask for feedback and 20 people say, "I really liked [varied opinion], but you've got to work on your posture!" well, that will surely be a stronger message than the instructor's quick, "Tuck!" reminder in class!

It would be truly cringe-worthy as an instructor, fearing that a bad student performance would present poorly on the instructor's abilities, but at a fun community event (unless there is a slough of awful amateurs) then I would just suck it up and consider it part of the territory. It seems like rather than figuring out how tell a student she isn't ready and why, I would rather the instructor bear the shame and help her be a better performer.

And isn't remembering your earliest public performances with embarrassment a common experience for many dancers?! :)

yes you've got my ideas there.
Of course we..the audience as well as the performers at these events..would like to see well-rehearsed students dancing to their ability level but a number of things happen.
1..Teacher like student has the "Let's have fun" approach
2.Teacher finds it hard to say no to students who have missed lessons and rehearsals especially if they have been loyal.
3.We all have students who take a long time/will never get certain moves.
4. Students just "lose it" when they perform. We've all done it..make mistakes we've never made in rehearsal.
5.Students don't have a lot cash and are not good at making themselves look good for less.

Group dances are a booger..we don't like to leave loyal students out, we have mixed ability even within experience. They never look "authentic" blah blah they are pick-a- mix sizes, We can't afford professional costumes....blah blah

What I am coming arond to is trying to devise dances that look relaxed ( and there hangs a problem of looking sloppy), that give every student a chance to shine so working on different roles.

I sympathise with teachers who desperately care but also do not want to put students under pressure and lose their joy of this dance.

Useful thread BTW

I find my students *want* to rehearse and be ready for any performance in which they are involved. We have rehearsals out of class time, and they practice by themselves. They *want* to look good on stage, and they hate feeling that they got something wrong. They have a sense of professional pride, even though they are a student troupe.

(Note: It doesn't hurt that I joke with them that they have to make *me* look good as a teacher!)

Originally Posted by beafarhana

I find my students *want* to rehearse and be ready for any performance in which they are involved. We have rehearsals out of class time, and they practice by themselves. They *want* to look good on stage, and they hate feeling that they got something wrong. They have a sense of professional pride, even though they are a student troupe.

(Note: It doesn't hurt that I joke with them that they have to make *me* look good as a teacher!)

This happens when you have built up that core dedicated students. I think many teacher go to platform with those less obsessed. Again they may be less so themselves..stuck in the fun-trap.
Apart from a college course ( if it runs) I'm now working with troupes both oriental and tribal..like minds and obssessives..g.:

There isn't any one reason. Students, particularly recreational dabblers (as opposed to ones who are interested in serious learning and/or methodical training to be pros), often don't care about details. They want fun, they want to dress up, and they want to get on stage. They don't want to be nagged about having to practice or piddling details of choreography. (Isn't this about expressing myself? Why should it matter if what I'm doing doesn't match the rest of the troupe? I'm expressing my "me"-ness.) If these students are your target market as a teacher, you may be hesitant to put on the brakes when it comes to performing because it is bad for your bottom line.

Some teachers see the short-term promotion of their classes as being more important than the long-term training of quality students or advancing the dance as an art form. If you view the community festival as a chance to demonstrate that anybody can get involved in the dance, and you want to present yourself as every audience member's potential teacher, then getting your name on the PA system is more important than worrying about putting a well rehearsed presentation on stage. Too much professionalism may discourage people from signing up for your classes. Polished dancing looks intimidating. A large segment of the GP doesn't know better anyway--if you're wearing the costume, you must be a belly dancer.

Other teachers have higher aspirations, but have to work with what they've got. It would be great to have BDSS-quality dancers in your student troupe, but maybe your enrollment consists of a few decent performers and a couple less-competent-but-loyal students (some of whom may be the teacher's personal friends). Do you sacrifice regular tuition and a pleasant classroom atmosphere to exclude the less desirable performers, or do you grit your teeth and make do?

Still others learned in a very inbred community and/or were put on stage as soon as possible. Perhaps they are not particularly good performers and teachers themselves. If you don't know any better because you weren't adequately taught yourself, why would you expect better from your own classes? If you can't plan proper lessons and aren't capable of budgeting your class time well, is it the students’ fault if they can't adequately master their performance material before the gig?

Once in a while you may come across a teacher who is simply a stage hog. She wants the job, wants to make sure someone else doesn't get it, and knows she can't fill the whole time slot all by herself. So what if her students aren't ready? Their lousy performances only make her look better. The important thing is that the gig is hers.

I don't know if every market is the same, but securing large-audience GP gigs can sometimes be an underhanded, competitive rat race. It's not surprising it doesn't bring out our best as an arts community. It doesn't always bring out the best in dancers as ethical human beings.

I think if the teacher knew, it was a lapse on her part to put people in a venue they weren't ready for.

But you raise an interesting point about teachers who choose not to invest their time/energy/money in producing student-appropriate venues! I tend to forget that some teachers are like that!

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

We are, of course, pre assuming that the teachers had anything to do with the students performing.
(snip)
In the case of teachers who not only know their students are going to perform but also encourage them no matter what their level, I think there are many things going on, no the least of which is there not being places appropriate for the students to perform. If you are a teacher who rents out a studio space two classes a week, you may not be invited to be part of the student recital. And if you are small and not networked, local belly dance community haflas may not be available. Yes, it would be nice to start and support your own, but many people don't have the time, energy, resources to do so. This is why I believe many teachers don't spend more energy suggesting that their less than prepared students aren't ready and should wait to perform.

But that is also my theory on why we see so much Western Music and faux belly dance at so many community events. . .

My definition of the difference between a hobbyist and a pro is that the hobbyist will look half as good on stage as she did in reheasal and the pro will look twice as good :) Which might have some bearing on the question of 'Why would the teacher let them dance in public like this?'

I don't think there ARE any come-one-come-all festivals in this area, when I think about it. We have studio parties that function in part as recitals, so anyone who sticks with us for several months gets a chance to get 'on stage' in a safe environment.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

We are, of course, pre assuming that the teachers had anything to do with the students performing. Sometimes the students simply choose to perform with out talking to their teachers. I know that my first showcases were like that. But that was also because the teacher I had didn't believe in community involvement because she was concerned with her students leaving her. But that is another thread.

In the case of teachers who not only know their students are going to perform but also encourage them no matter what their level, I think there are many things going on, no the least of which is there not being places appropriate for the students to perform. If you are a teacher who rents out a studio space two classes a week, you may not be invited to be part of the student recital. And if you are small and not networked, local belly dance community haflas may not be available. Yes, it would be nice to start and support your own, but many people don't have the time, energy, resources to do so. This is why I believe many teachers don't spend more energy suggesting that their less than prepared students aren't ready and should wait to perform.

But that is also my theory on why we see so much Western Music and faux belly dance at so many community events. . .

{{{HUGS}}}

I think that is just laziness on the instructors part- for a long time, my instructor was the only one in town & only had 5 or so students- so she reserved *free* space at the auditorium in the local library or *free* space at the rec center, or just hosted a party at her house so we had a safe student venue for performances. A good teacher NEEDS to provide a safe venue for students to learn how to perform- no excuses are going to cut it in my book, knowing what we have done here with our limited resources!

Originally Posted by maurazebra

My definition of the difference between a hobbyist and a pro is that the hobbyist will look half as good on stage as she did in reheasal and the pro will look twice as good :) Which might have some bearing on the question of 'Why would the teacher let them dance in public like this?'

I don't think there ARE any come-one-come-all festivals in this area, when I think about it. We have studio parties that function in part as recitals, so anyone who sticks with us for several months gets a chance to get 'on stage' in a safe environment.

excellent point- Tourbeau had some great points too
I personally have to drag my students on stage, promising I wouldn't allow them on stage unless I felt confident of how they are going to represent me, as their teacher- but there are definitely some 'just for fun' folks in our dance community who see stage performances kind of like another party they don't want to be left out of- their teacher takes the stance somewhere along the lines of 'these ladies are going to sign up anyway, the least I can do is give them a decent choreography to work with' but they don't tend to sign up for *certain* events- so I think it is partly how an event is billed too- if there are no requirements for participating other than calling in, I think it's natural for folks to feel like this, to a degree- anyone can sign up & I don't want to miss the party, so who cares if I'm good, I'm going to dance! If you really want a professional show, invite the people you want to perform, or hold auditions, or solicit applications or *something.*

Originally Posted by patrisha

I have had a few instances where I have actually told a student that if they insist on performing, "Dont tell anyone I am your teacher" Harsh? In regards to your comment that the student may get feed back that will help them, who are they gonna ask? Honestly, they will ask friends and family members or dancers that are at their level and they will tell them "Oh you were fabulous" hence my point of artifically inflated ego before ability.

Totally agree. I once had 2 students who insisted on performing at some sort of public event. I had let them know that I did not feel that they were ready, as graciously as possible. [I do provide student dance opportunities, recitals, etc.] They wanted to put my promotional materials out at the event, and were quite startled when I reminded them that I did NOT endorse their performance, and therefore would not want to have my materials at it.
Harsh? Blunt and to the point and necessary IMO.

Originally Posted by bintbeled

I think teachers are afraid to be truthful with their students. What they don't seem to realize is that if their students don't look good, it reflects on the teacher.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I agree. I have stories about the drama that can ensue when one is truthful...

Very sad but true.
If a teacher is truthful from the beginning then at least her (or his) students know what to expect. There might be a few students who have trouble transitioning from another teacher if they're not used to that, however.

Originally Posted by Roeska

...Say an inexperienced student really wants to do a solo but has bad posture, and they perform. When they ask for feedback and 20 people say, "I really liked [varied opinion], but you've got to work on your posture!" well, that will surely be a stronger message than the instructor's quick, "Tuck!" reminder in class!

In reality, after performance feedback is usually gushing "that was wonderful." "I loved it" etc.
Rarely is useful learning information imparted in these situations.

It can be quite challenging to establish an outpost of quality dancing in a "Wild West" of other dance troupes that don't feel any compulsion to reserve the GP stage for the best performances. I've lived in two different areas of the US, and both places have had issues with slop getting on stage. Sometimes it's ignorance, sometimes it's "I don't care," and sometimes it's a combination of the two, fed by the idea that "X's troupe is lousy. We're not great, but we're as good as they are, so if they're doing that festival gig, we have just as much right to be there as they do." Part of the problem is that X may have gotten that gig years ago when the troupe was better/led by someone else/whatever, and although their quality has slipped, they have a longstanding relationship with the organizers, and get the gig year after year anyway. No matter how good you are, it can be very difficult to upset the status quo.

Lara L, excellent post. I too started teaching in a less populated area and was one of the only teachers in my town. Did pretty much what you mention your teacher doing for her students. Kudos to her, its invaluable to have those protected student performances.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

It can be quite challenging to establish an outpost of quality dancing in a "Wild West" of other dance troupes that don't feel any compulsion to reserve the GP stage for the best performances. ... Part of the problem is that X may have gotten that gig years ago when the troupe was better/led by someone else/whatever, and although their quality has slipped, they have a longstanding relationship with the organizers, and get the gig year after year anyway. No matter how good you are, it can be very difficult to upset the status quo.

This is very true, and it's unfortunate because someone else's bad performance reflects poorly upon us all as artists.

For me, I think the key is establishing clear boundaries between different types of shows so that nobody is under the wrong impression and gets their feelings hurt later.

I think it's great to encourage anyone to dance, no matter their experience or ability, at those safe students-only private haflas. Of course, there are still rules to follow (about how to conduct oneself and dress oneself, etc., etc.,).

But I would think that if an instructor has very clear and objective rules about who is qualified to dance at public performances students would understand (and know what is required of them). I always have these rules in writing in one of my class handouts at the start of a new session to remind them.

So, for example, for Public Performance X each student must: 1. Have taken at least two sessions at the Intermediate Level. 2. Have performance experience at a student Hafla. 3. Miss no more than one class during the semester. 4. Have all required costume components, or purchase required costume components. etc. etc.

There are no exceptions to the rules, but the rules might change slightly depending on the venue.

I think there are two ways to look at this...From the instructor side, I don't think we will ever agree on what is "stage-ready" because of the varying quality of the instructors in our field. But secondly, I do think event planners should be quite clear in communicating the intent of their events when they reach out to the local community - is this a showcase by invitation only?; is this a friends and family show and not publicized to the GP?, etc. - and then their pricing for the show should also align. My expectations for a $5 show are quite different from a $25 show.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Very sad but true.
If a teacher is truthful from the beginning then at least her (or his) students know what to expect. There might be a few students who have trouble transitioning from another teacher if they're not used to that, however.


In reality, after performance feedback is usually gushing "that was wonderful." "I loved it" etc.
Rarely is useful learning information imparted in these situations.

Ain't that the truth!When did you last tell a perfomer/performers that their act was "cringworthy""cr*p","sloppy","disrespectful","WTF" ,just plain "awful".
And personally I have seen ( and probably danced) acts that are worthy of those adjectives.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

Or in some cases, maybe the teachers might want to inflate their own egos, as well. I think a handful of teachers out there might feel that it reflects positively on themselves to have students at the performing level, whether or not the students really are ready to get out there and do it.

I gotta agree with this statement here... that there are some teachers who seek to validate themselves by putting students into local haflas or public festival style events, just to show that they have a student group... and before all my local bhuzzers start wondering if I mean them, I don't. There are very few local teachers/student groups I'd say this about. For the most part, our community is good with self-policing these things.

... but if the students aren't ready, I would think it's just a bad reflection on the teacher. I know there have been times in my student troupe directing days when I wondered if their presence on stage was appropriate at that venue... and if having them up there was doing more harm to my reputation than good. If it was doing more harm, it was my fault as a teacher, not theirs as students. I'm more careful now about which student numbers I put out there for public consumption. They may not be pro level, but they are at a respectable student level for performing at haflas, demos, and other shows that are open to all levels of dancing.