Thread: New-to-you student gets uppity? A rant.

I know some of you have had to deal with this before, but this is my first time, so bear with me.

New student moves into the area with a couple years' dance experience. I recommend the technique and drills classes since the beginner class may be too easy, but I won't put her into intermediate sight unseen.

T&D is poo-poo'd as being too easy.... well, she did happen to hit it on a night when it's full of beginners, so yeah... it was basic, but it's also a good time to work on basic technique and tribalizing her moves since she has no tribal exprience. The other night of T&D is full of intermediate dancers, so it might be more to her liking and I suggested this.

She instead decided to take the beginner fusion class because T&D was soooo easy... that one time she came... on the one night it was full of first-timers. Doesn't bother giving the other night of T&D a chance.

Oh, but beginner fusion is soooo easy (well, it *does* have "beginner" right there in the name). NOW what should she do? I suggest the other night of T&D again. She suggests private lessons. I'm getting the feeling she thinks she's too good for *any* of my classes because she was too good for my beginner classes.

And then she drops the bombshell....

She wants to "audition" for the pro troupe.

Good luck with that.

well, with an audition, you can give her specific feedback on what she needs to work on & tell her exactly which nights she needs to be in class...

Why not let her audition and see her fall flat on her face (so to speak)?

Originally Posted by Lara L

well, with an audition, you can give her specific feedback on what she needs to work on & tell her exactly which nights she needs to be in class...

The thing is, the pro troupe doesn't hold auditions. We hand-pick potential new members when we feel we need to add to our ranks and invite them for a three month training period. At the end of that period we determine whether they are a good fit for us or not. We just added a new member and probably won't need to do so again for several months to a year at the earliest.

I suppose we could book a private lesson for the same purpose though, but I think my answer to her will be the same... take a session of the harder T&D class and then go into intermediate fusion. She may very well blaze through that and into advanced in no time, but she has to start somewhere but the top!

It all hangs on wether the student gave you private feedback or did it openly in front of the class. She is perfectly entitled to tell you she desn't feel a class is for her and to try to suss out the right one.She is not correct to put you on the spot in front of others.
If audition are by choice of teacher then she has to wait for the call. Being in a troupe or performance group is not just about being of similar standard but being abe to get on together as a team. As she has obviously rubbed you up the wrong way, you'll have a certain reserve.

Originally Posted by indigostars

Why not let her audition and see her fall flat on her face (so to speak)?

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,
(evil laugh)

well said Lizajuk!!!!

Originally Posted by mihri

The thing is, the pro troupe doesn't hold auditions. We hand-pick potential new members when we feel we need to add to our ranks and invite them for a three month training period. At the end of that period we determine whether they are a good fit for us or not. We just added a new member and probably won't need to do so again for several months to a year at the earliest.

I suppose we could book a private lesson for the same purpose though, but I think my answer to her will be the same... take a session of the harder T&D class and then go into intermediate fusion. She may very well blaze through that and into advanced in no time, but she has to start somewhere but the top!

If that's your policy, I wouldn't do a special audition for her unless you already know she is phenomenal- Just tell her you need to see her in action before you would consider an invitation to the pro troupe training. Our troupe is structured similar, tho we do hold annual auditions so folks can look forward to that & have a goal to prepare for. What did you tell her? I would have said exactly what you just wrote- I need to see how you do in an intermediate class before we can consider an invitation to the troupe training.

Anyway, I feel for you- for some reason I've had a couple folks with this attitude this summer- except they have never taken BD classes before. years of dance training in other forms, so of COURSE they should be able to perform with the student troupe by January, right? yeah, don't think so. On the other hand, I have a gal who has been in & out of classes for a couple years (job didn't let her stay put for classes) who just started training seriously this summer & I am very happy to be prepping her for a debut performance in October- so nice when someone is actually motivated enough to WORK for their goals!

Originally Posted by lizajuk

It all hangs on wether the student gave you private feedback or did it openly in front of the class. She is perfectly entitled to tell you she desn't feel a class is for her and to try to suss out the right one.She is not correct to put you on the spot in front of others.

She did pull me aside.. I'll grant her that. I don't have a problem with the words themselves. I knew she'd already be beyond the beginner material. I've had other students come to me with similar concerns, but they did it much more respectfully. I had originally suggested she take T&D on the harder night. After basically wasting time in two classes (in her mind, anyway), she's finally going to do just that.

I just think it's awfully ballsy to come in and tell your new teacher how awesome you think you are and then announce your intention to be in her pro troupe after phoning it in for two classes that you were late to and that had almost a month of *not* being in class between them.

I should give her the benefit of the doubt though and see where it goes from here. She does know how to dance. She just needs to learn some humility. I've simply not been impressed by her sporadic attendance and too-cool-for-the-room attitude. I guess it can only get better, especially once she settles on a class she's happier with.

After you're able to restrain your (perfectly justified) eye rolling reaction, put on your bright and cheery face and say, "I'm so pleased you'd like to work your way up to being in our troupe! The only way to get into our troupe is to make a commitment to come to classes, so we can see your dedication, and after a semester's worth I can give you feedback on how you could progress to pro level!"

She might just be utterly clueless on how she's coming across... she might think she's expressing an eventual goal and it's coming across like an immediate demand. Or, yeah, she may have such a high opinion of herself she doesn't think she needs lessons. But either way, if you get it across that somebody who doesn't quite make it to lessons appears to be somebody who won't make it to rehearsals... she'll get the message.

I hear you. My usual policy is everyone starts in the beginner session to learn my methodology. I had one student several years ago who talked me out of it - she skipped to intermediate and I still regret making that exception. I had to spend time correcting things that we nail down in the beginner sessions. And of course her sense of entitlement continued to show up in her comments and actions. On the other hand, in my experience it is usually the very best dancers who are the most humble - who don't blink twice at taking a beginner course, who understand why it can be useful, who are not ruled by their ego.

The other part of this is that there is a lot more to being a successful troupe member than being a phenomenal dancer. I'd take plenty of time to note her interactions with you and others over the next couple months.

Good luck!
Christine

Originally Posted by tigerb

She might just be utterly clueless on how she's coming across.

I honestly think it's this right here. I don't think she means to be disrespectful of myself or the students. I do think she wants to master tribal now that she feels like she mastered Oriental... or cab.. or whatever she studied before. I have seen her move in these two classes and yeah... she knows what she's doing for the most part.

I like your script about taking classes and progressing and all of that. Honestly, I was kind of dumbstruck at the reference to auditioning for the pro troupe that I just let it slide. It's not like she said she wants to audition this week or even this month. I do think she meant it as an eventual goal, but how eventual, I have no idea. I'll wait until she brings it up again before I give her the low-down on how all of that works.

Originally Posted by CFerhat

On the other hand, in my experience it is usually the very best dancers who are the most humble - who don't blink twice at taking a beginner course, who understand why it can be useful, who are not ruled by their ego.

The other part of this is that there is a lot more to being a successful troupe member than being a phenomenal dancer. I'd take plenty of time to note her interactions with you and others over the next couple months.

Agreed on all of this. What really makes me go "huh?" is that another transplant started the same night and asked if she could be put right into intermediate level classes. I told her that I'd like to see her take one session of beginning classes and the student who wants to be in the pro troupe BACKED ME UP ON THIS! Even *she* stood there and said you have to take the beginner level when you start with a new teacher and cited herself as an example because she was going to take the same class.

The other girl is in the beginner class now, working her butt off and not making a fuss about it being too easy.

She may not understand that, with tribal, knowing how to belly dance is not enough. Have you explained about the group improv aspect of tribal, and how she needs to learn your groups "vocabulary" before she would be able to work with the intermediate group? i.e. It's not just about how advanced a dancer is, but how well she knows the particular combos and stylizations (arm positions, etc.) that you use.

Some people who come from cabaret aren't necessarily aware at first how that works.

personally, i always meet with a re located dancer in a private before placement.most join a class and take a private. but the one on one to start with, sets a tone, gives an upper hand....

She's not interested in the improv classes. She's taking fusion and mainly wants to know what she has to change about her current vocabulary to "make it tribal."

But yeah.. it's kind of a reteaching thing either way.

Of course, her not being interested in improv will be a stumbling block to making her way up to the pro troupe since we do both fusion and improv. Most of the training period focuses on improv in fact.

Originally Posted by zamora

personally, i always meet with a re located dancer in a private before placement.most join a class and take a private. but the one on one to start with, sets a tone, gives an upper hand....

I'll have to consider this. She did ask about private lessons, so that would be a good opportunity to get a better idea of how her dancing will transfer into the tribal fusion world and to let her know what I expect out of my intermediate/advanced dancers.

However, if she's *only* interested in privates (ie not interacting with other dancers in class), that will seriously hinder her troupe goals since to be in a troupe you have to interact with other dancers and all that.

Why do you not agree to a private lesson? That way you can check out what she can do and can't, and she'll pay you for it. You know she might be the type who needs to be challenged, and if she saw only beginner-beginners she might be afraid she'll stagnate. Those students might be a pain sometimes but they're often also really willing to work once they understand the goals set for them.

have you read shems's article? it reminds me a lot of this. it's on FB tho, not sure how to link it...

but anywho, why not give her the private lesson so then you can see how she does, and just let her audition. not like she'll get in if she's not any good. if she is good enough and does happen to get in, u can explain to her that part of the deal to be in troupe is to attend the other classes/interact with other dancers (if thats what the case is).

my experience is that personalities like that don't last long in group settings anyway.

Oh, I have agreed to the private lesson, at least I told her I'd be willing to do that. We just haven't scheduled one yet. Maybe she's waiting to see how the other T&D class goes before she ponies up the extra money a private would cost.... which I can certainly understand.

As for just letting her audition for the troupe, the troupe simply doesn't work that way. We do invitations when we need new members (which we don't right now) and then we train them up. Invites usually go to capable students who have shown dedication to improving and learning via classes and workshops, dependability by showing up to said classes and workshops on time and prepared, and a willingness to work in a group setting, say via student performances with classmates.

I have not seen Shems' article, but I will see if I can find it. thanks for the reference!

ah well then just tell her that's how troupe goes, and if she gets all uppity about that then u'll know she wouldn't have worked well with others to begin with lol

And remember that YOU set the standards, the rules, the protocol, for your classes and troupe...not HER. If you don't do auditions, it doesn't matter what she thinks - you don't do auditions, period. It doesn't necessarily matter what her reaction is to any of your output. When I am in this type of situation, I try to just keep pleasantly repeating the protocol or standards or whatever, without TMI or too much detail; I have learned the hard way over the years to NOT overexplain. This situation occurs quite a bit, in all types of organizations, not just Bellydance class.
You have no obligation to put her in either a more advanced class nor troupe. For sure, being a good troupe member is about way more than your dance skills. I wouldn't even consider someone "new to me" until I had seen her in interaction situations.
Good luck. She's already rubbing you the wrong way, so try to let it go and stay in charge. :-) She also may relax and be less um pushy after a bit. But why second guess her motives? You are in charge of your motives, not hers.

I personally LOVE it when troupes do open auditions, but if that's not how your troupe does it, don't change your rules for this girl.

Give her a private lesson if you're comfortable with that, but be right up front with her the next time that she brings up going into the pro troupe - to get into the troupe you have to take lots of classes first, eventually some dancers MIGHT get asked to do the trial rehearsal period, even that's not a sure entre into the troupe...

Have you even seen her dance? I don't care if she's a dancing prodigy, she's never done tribal before so she needs to start from the ground up. Stupid woman.

There *are* dancers who are in denial of their ability or lack thereof. I had a dancer drop in to my L3 class, which I would call intermediate, when I was teaching and she had supposedly been dancing for quite a while, and she was TERRIBLE. So I said, yes, how about you pop into the L2 class for a while to refresh (she'd had a break) and then we'll have another look at this class. Well, she was MORTALLY offended. She said the class had been easy for her yadda yadda yadda... I had to seriously hold my ground, which was really HARD, because there was NO WAY she was technically ready for the class and it would not have been fair to eveyone else. The STUDENTS knew she wasn't ready.

She never came back. I'm not sorry. Some people are simply deluded.

Eek! I always tell my students who are going to new studios to take *whatever* class the teacher tells them too.

And it's what I do myself. If the policy is you *must* take beginner's classes first...then that's what you do.

A huge part of being in a troupe is obeying the rules, being easy to work with, being responsive to direction....

I'm sure she's just excited and wants to get the most out of her time with you and is not intent on being rude.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

She never came back. I'm not sorry. Some people are simply deluded.

My favorite comment ever from a student: "I'm really amazing when I dance in my house with a bellydance DVD. So I think there must be something wrong with your teaching because I'm not amazing in your studio."

2 very good points among many stand out to me as maybe the best way to handle a new student to your classes. Cferhat and Zamoras. If you are not comfortable doing a private evaluation as Cory suggests (which IMO is the best way to go) use the approach that Cferhat offers, everyone goes through the beginners cycle to get your paticular way of teaching. Dont offer more than that. See what she does. She may surprise you and be a very good dancer, nice person and a strong addition to your peformance troupe. If not, she will be a real B... and start teaching down the street from you.
Dont make up your mind to shut her out until you get to know her a bit.

Oh, at the EDA, we call them "Intake evaluations" and give the students a short criteria to be followed at the evaluation so they may prepare. This also helps us rate the serious of their commitment to the dance and lets us know more at what level they are really at as far as our EDA requirements are concerned.

Originally Posted by eshe

My favorite comment ever from a student: "I'm really amazing when I dance in my house with a bellydance DVD. So I think there must be something wrong with your teaching because I'm not amazing in your studio."

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;, ..l;,..l;, did someone ACTUALLY say that to you? oh my Gods that's hilarious!

Originally Posted by eshe

My favorite comment ever from a student: "I'm really amazing when I dance in my house with a bellydance DVD. So I think there must be something wrong with your teaching because I'm not amazing in your studio."

Originally Posted by raqFariha

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;, ..l;,..l;, did someone ACTUALLY say that to you? oh my Gods that's hilarious!

Hilarious...but also OH SO sad that someone goes through life so disillusioned.
Eshe, how did you reply?

The next time she comes to class (I thought she was coming tonight, but she didn't), I'll bring up the private lesson idea with her again. Then I can assess her dance skill outside of a beginner class and figure out what it is she's looking for and then give her a realistic view of what she has to do to achieve it. I still say that no matter what she needs to take a session of either beginner fusion choreography or technique and drills before going into he intermediate choreo class.

As for the pro troupe, that's not negotiable, so no worries there. If she asks about it again, I'll paint her the picture of how we do things.... same as I would for anyone.