Thread: Getting in touch with back muscles for chest lift

While we practiced together, a friend of mine, who's been dancing for a while, expressed frustration about her chest lifts and range of motion. We figured out that she has mostly using her diaphragm to do the lifts, rather than the back muscles. And, she has a really hard time getting in touch with these muscles - it reminds me of the problems some people describe when trying to get into glute squeezes: They know what they want to do, but it just doesn't happen. I poked her back, and she says she just doesn't get these muscles to work. I finally had the idea to do chest lifts sitting on the floor (to help cancel out all other muscles), and breathing out (to get the diaphragm out of the movement) - which lead to a little bit of progress. (I was quite excited to see that.)

Beyond that, I have no idea what other exercises there are to help her to control that muscle. For me, being poked was the eye opener, and I don't recall any exercises in any of the classes I have been to.

One of the things I have my students try is to lift the chest and then while keeping the chest lifted continue to breathe normally. This will usually force the people who are relying only on their diaphragm to shift their muscle emphasis around to other muscles.

I don't think it's possible to lift your chest using the diaphragm, though a lot of bellydancers use the word 'diaphragm' to mean 'upper abdominal muscles' and I think that may be what your friend means?

I teach my students to lift the lower ribs with their upper abdominall muscles and simultaneously engage the intercostal muscles. These are small muscles between the ribs. If you inhale deeply into your chest, you can feel your front ribs expand like an accordion. I have students do this slowly several times to get in touch with the movement. Then I have them inhale deeply and see if they can hold that expansion while they exhale. So we discover that the expansion of the ribs CAN be separate from the breath.

I power ribcage lifts from these two actions -- using upper abs to lift the ribcage and expanding the ribcage independently of the breath. You can refine the movement by firming the pectorals and the muscles along the side ribs, under your arms.

There is some engagement of the upper back muscles, but I prefer not to focus on those too much. I find that students who depend too heavily on their back muscles have a lot of difficulty generating smooth movements, like circles. (those with a weak core will sometimes even arch their back unsafely when using the back muscles to lift the ribs)

However, if I'm sure a student has a strong core and is properly engaging the abs & intercostals, I might encourage her to also think of drawing the lower edges of the shoulderblades in toward the ribcage.

(all of this is much easier to explain if I can point to a live model in class!!!)

yay! Lauren you explained it much more clearly than I could this morning (lack of coffee has me searching for words LOL) - that is exactly how I teach it too :)

I also make part of the practice drill exhaling on the lift to make sure they stay in the habit of using the correct muscles and not their breath. Sometimes I also make the students talk to me while doing chest lifts/drops - it drives them crazy, but guarantees for me that they are breathing normally ;)

Originally Posted by mahsati

Sometimes I also make the students talk to me while doing chest lifts/drops - it drives them crazy, but guarantees for me that they are breathing normally ;)

Ooh, good thinking, I love this idea! Always looking for new ways to torture -- I mean, help -- the students!

This is a strengthing exercise we do in class. Have your student lay prone on the floor on her belly. With hands behind her neck have her lift her chest off the floor. This should put her intouch with her upper back muscles and strengthen them.

[Place palms together in front of chest, and press. This engages the right muscles to lift the chest. It used to be an old exercise from the 1950's...along with the refrain...I must, I must, improve my bust!

When you've mastered the technique with the palms together. Try it with the hands not touching. You can feel the chest and upper back muscles working.

I actually have my students drill 3 ways to do chest lifts: 1) with the pecs, so they can see how icky and corded this makes necks look; with their upper abs; and then with their back muscles. They can see and feel how all three methods work -- well, actually, how two methods work and one doesn't.

This is part of my "understanding what initiates the move" series.

Originally Posted by Lucinia

This is a strengthing exercise we do in class. Have your student lay prone on the floor on her belly. With hands behind her neck have her lift her chest off the floor. This should put her intouch with her upper back muscles and strengthen them.

If you have your students do this, please have them roll their heels apart, so they're slightly pigeontoed and watch to see that they've internally rotated their thighs before lifting the chest off the floor. Then have them stretch their feet toward the back wall so their tailbone draws down into the body & toward their heels. These actions will help to protect the lower back. Come up on an inhalation and lower on the exhalation.

It would be safer to introduce this exercise with the hands lightly clasped behind the hips at first.

IF you have students who seem to have weak core muscles, only let them do an exercise like this with your close supervision. Make sure their tailbone is drawing down into the body and toward their heels before they lift, and that their breathing doesn't become ragged.

those with a weak core will sometimes even arch their back unsafely when using the back muscles to lift the ribs

Weak core, eh? *scribbles notes* I know a few dancers like that. You poke em and they arch, and you're like "no, no, come back to neutral".

Personally I got trained to use the muscles in back for lifting (and for arms and keeping shoulders down), but I also use some in front as well, as I suspect we all do. I'm glad of the development of muscle between my shoulder blades, given the size of my bust, which has given me rounded shoulders. This posture is helping minimise the dowager's hump I'd be headed for otherwise.

I'm personally really glad our teacher makes us use the back muscles for chest lifts. It has improved my posture no end.

One visualization I got at a workshop was to stand upright with our shoulders down and back straight, feeling that our shoulderblades are dropped down our backs. Then she had us try to pull our shoulderblades down just a little more, feeling the resulting slight lift of the chest. That instructor also mentioned we should feel as if the chest is on one end of the teeter-totter, and that you lift it and drop it as opposed to arching it and collapsing it.

Hi Steffi B,
I'm thinking you need to bring her back to good posture first. With the shoulders rolled back and down and the pelvis released so that the lower back is not compressed. Do you have any old FCBD vids? In one of them Carolena gives a break down that really clicked for me. It was when she was breaking down the body wave. I reference this vid because I think the style you do is tribal, right?
Beth

This is exactly what I was going to say but you worded it so well.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I don't think it's possible to lift your chest using the diaphragm, though a lot of bellydancers use the word 'diaphragm' to mean 'upper abdominal muscles' and I think that may be what your friend means?

I teach my students to lift the lower ribs with their upper abdominall muscles and simultaneously engage the intercostal muscles. These are small muscles between the ribs. If you inhale deeply into your chest, you can feel your front ribs expand like an accordion. I have students do this slowly several times to get in touch with the movement. Then I have them inhale deeply and see if they can hold that expansion while they exhale. So we discover that the expansion of the ribs CAN be separate from the breath.

I power ribcage lifts from these two actions -- using upper abs to lift the ribcage and expanding the ribcage independently of the breath. You can refine the movement by firming the pectorals and the muscles along the side ribs, under your arms.

There is some engagement of the upper back muscles, but I prefer not to focus on those too much. I find that students who depend too heavily on their back muscles have a lot of difficulty generating smooth movements, like circles. (those with a weak core will sometimes even arch their back unsafely when using the back muscles to lift the ribs)

However, if I'm sure a student has a strong core and is properly engaging the abs & intercostals, I might encourage her to also think of drawing the lower edges of the shoulderblades in toward the ribcage.

(all of this is much easier to explain if I can point to a live model in class!!!)

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Weak core, eh? *scribbles notes* I know a few dancers like that. You poke em and they arch, and you're like "no, no, come back to neutral".

Sometimes it helps to encourage them to think of bringing the chest slightly forward as they lift. But only slightly, to counteract the arching back. (gosh I never know if any of this is clear without a visual).

Personally I got trained to use the muscles in back for lifting (and for arms and keeping shoulders down), but I also use some in front as well, as I suspect we all do. I'm glad of the development of muscle between my shoulder blades, given the size of my bust, which has given me rounded shoulders. This posture is helping minimise the dowager's hump I'd be headed for otherwise.

I think you're right that we all use both the back & frontl, otherwise we'd be folding forward or arching. Just a question of focus, I imagine. I usually find myself counteracting students' tendency to arch the whole ribcage back, that's why I focus so much on the front-of-body end. I wonder if movement patterns are regional in nature?

I do this as well for classes! Yay! Nice to see I'm on the same page. I really feel the pecs are so important to clean this technique up and make it look more refined.

And I wish it increased the bust haha!! ..l;,

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

[Place palms together in front of chest, and press. This engages the right muscles to lift the chest. It used to be an old exercise from the 1950's...along with the refrain...I must, I must, improve my bust!

When you've mastered the technique with the palms together. Try it with the hands not touching. You can feel the chest and upper back muscles working.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

[Place palms together in front of chest, and press. This engages the right muscles to lift the chest. It used to be an old exercise from the 1950's...along with the refrain...I must, I must, improve my bust!

... The bigger the better, the tighter the sweater, the boys depend on us!!! ..l;,



We now return you to your regularly scheduled anatomy thread...

Wow, I really stress upper body lift, movement and energy, and I can't for the life of me figure out how the pectoralis muscles have anything to do with lifting the ribcage away from the pelvis.

The pectoralis muscles flex and extend the arm relative to the torso via the shoulder joint. They aren't attached to the skeleton in a way that would allow them to lift the ribcage.

When I lift my ribcage, I am engaging intercostals and other core muscles, as well as some involvement of the back muscles (primarily to hold correct posture).

Sedonia

Sedonia, I find the pecs can refine the lift slightly, but I don't see how they can really lift the ribcage by themselves.

To picture the refinement, imagine contracting the pecs as if to abduct the arm but instead of drawing the arms closer to the chest via the shoulder joint, you're stabilizing the arm so the chest draws toward the shoulder joint. So you're already lifted, but just adding some refinement to the lift.

In order to get any meaningful motion, you have to also engage the serratus muscles (along the side ribs, under the arm).

I think of it like engaging the glute during a hip lift - it doesn't initiate the movement for me, but is an optional way to add a crispness, lock, or finish to the movement when I want it to be percussive.

To be honest, I don't use this method or generally teach it because I feel that it locks up the upper body (and my upper body doesn't need to be more rigid!) without adding much.

Ayshe talks about it at length in her Wings video, which was the first I'd heard of the technique.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Sedonia, I find the pecs can refine the lift slightly, but I don't see how they can really lift the ribcage by themselves.

I think of it like engaging the glute during a hip lift - it doesn't initiate the movement for me, but is an optional way to add a crispness, lock, or finish to the movement when I want it to be percussive.

Exactly. Many muscles become engaged in movements as stabilizers and antagonists; they play a little part but aren't necessarily doing the movement. Actually when I read this thread, I was thinking pectoralis major, and poking around on mine, and seeing that they stay pretty much relaxed. Maybe tensed slightly as everything else does.

Checking an anatomy book, the pectoralis minor is a scapula stabilizer, which means it could be playing an important role holding that bone in place as the intercostals and abs lift the chest.

Sedonia

Once again, I learn tons of interesting stuff from my Bhuz buddies, especially the fab Lauren. Thanks for all the info -- it's really helpful.

Hmmm... a lot of different ways to explain it, but I teach my students very specifically "not" to use their rhomboids (muscles between your shoulder blade). What happens is that your chest sticks out when you do that. You can use your diaphragm, but if you do that, you can't breath, and that's not probably not a wise idea. ;-)

If you focus on an expansion and rise of the ribcage, you'll get a nice subtle lift that does not cause shoulder or back tension. They (shoulders and back) should be nice and relaxed and the lift should come from your upper abs.

Goes to show that there are a lot of different ways to do things! I don't mean to suggest my technique is the only way... but this is how I explain it to my students. Hope it helps...

A lot depends on what KIND of ribcage lift you're using, too. There's a soft up-and-down rhythmic movement, like Fifi uses almost constantly. There's a scooping lift that might lead an undulation. There's a lift that might precede a firm drop, like Dina does. Each would be slightly different, and some of us might be talking about different things.

I guess those distinctions come about later, though, after the student has located the basic muscles to use and can do it without much conscious thought.

Originally Posted by tigerb

One visualization I got at a workshop was to stand upright with our shoulders down and back straight, feeling that our shoulderblades are dropped down our backs. Then she had us try to pull our shoulderblades down just a little more, feeling the resulting slight lift of the chest. That instructor also mentioned we should feel as if the chest is on one end of the teeter-totter, and that you lift it and drop it as opposed to arching it and collapsing it.

I like this approach to using the back muscles, though to create this action, you'll find you're engaging the pecs (upper chest), serratus (below the arm) and intercostal (between the ribs) muscles as well. I like the image of drawing the shoulderblades down the back, or firming them against the ribcage, rather than squeezing them together.

To clarify, it's lifting from the midback (just below the shoulderblades) that causes the arching-back problem.

[QUOTE=*Shira*;66351]... The bigger the better, the tighter the sweater, the boys depend on us!!! ..l;,


..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, ..l;, /QUOTE]

Thanks a bunch for all advice - that has actually helped a lot, and my friend has reported that she's doing better with the "squeeze the ribs", which is exciting.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I don't think it's possible to lift your chest using the diaphragm, though a lot of bellydancers use the word 'diaphragm' to mean 'upper abdominal muscles' and I think that may be what your friend means?

Thank you Lauren. I really hate the current trend to "name the muscle" that makes a move move. Often the muscle named is wrong and besides, it always seems better to me to point to, or touch, a muscle rather than just name it and expect people to know what the heck you mean. Touch my erector spinae and I'll know what you mean. Say "tighten your erector spinae" and most have no clue. Argh.

IF you are going to talk about a muscle group, please make sure it is the right group. Your diaphram is inside your abdomen, when it contracts it moves downward causing a negative vacuum whereby air is pulled (ok pushed) into your lungs. It does NOT have anything to do with chest lifts.

What is important is the move, not the muscle, and it makes me look askance at the person saying it, wondering if they are trying to sound knowledgeable without being so.

Rant over. Thank you for letting me rant. argh.

Good point, Jaziri...and by the way, Lauren, it's "intracostal" muscles in the ribs, not "intercostal". He he he ...

..g.:

Originally Posted by fairydancer

Good point, Jaziri...and by the way, Lauren, it's "intracostal" muscles in the ribs, not "intercostal". He he he ...

..g.:

.w.: hee hee Thank you so much!!!!

Originally Posted by jaziri

I really hate the current trend to "name the muscle" that makes a move move. Often the muscle named is wrong and besides, it always seems better to me to point to, or touch, a muscle rather than just name it and expect people to know what the heck you mean. Touch my erector spinae and I'll know what you mean. Say "tighten your erector spinae" and most have no clue. Argh.

I think naming muscles is good, provided you identify the correct ones. I wish my teachers had done so back when I was a student. I don't know whether such anatomy awareness would have helped my belly dance learning process, but I think it would have helped me a lot in "real life" with better general body awareness. I wish I had known as much about anatomy 20 years ago as I do today - I think I could have saved myself a lot of aches and pains if I had understood my body better back then.

As a belly dance teacher, I find that those of my students who are highly educated about anatomy really like it when I tell them which muscles are producing the move. Often, saying, "You should feel this move in this muscle..." makes light bulbs go on with some of the students. Of course, other people's eyes glaze over.

Not everybody is highly educated about anatomy and exercise physiology. Heck, I don't consider myself to be either, though I know a lot more about it today than I used to. For that reason, I agree that naming the muscle is insufficient - you do need to provide additional cues beyond the muscle name to help students understand what you want. Pointing to the muscle at the same time you say the name is good, and so is using an alternate name ("you'll feel this in your quadriceps, which are the large muscles here right in the front of the thigh...")

IF you are going to talk about a muscle group, please make sure it is the right group. Your diaphragm is inside your abdomen, when it contracts it moves downward causing a negative vacuum whereby air is pulled (ok pushed) into your lungs. It does NOT have anything to do with chest lifts.

I have a high awareness of my diaphragm due to many years of playing the trumpet and being trained in actively using the diaphragm to draw in large breaths of air to power my tone. I also sometimes do yoga nauli as a means of keeping both the diaphragm and the abdominal muscles well toned. I feel pretty confident I can tell the difference between what my diaphragm feels like versus what my upper abs feel like. I'd agree that the diaphragm doesn't help with chest lifts, but I DO think it helps with rib cage drops, adding a level of crispness to them that the upper abs alone wouldn't be able to do. I also feel it engage/release when I do stomach rolls, and of course the diaphragm plays an important role in tummy flutters.

(continued in next message)

What is important is the move, not the muscle, and it makes me look askance at the person saying it, wondering if they are trying to sound knowledgeable without being so.

I don't think it's an attempt to pretend to know more than they do. I think it's an attempt to find an alternate way of explaining the move. As a teacher, I try to have at least 3 ways to explain each move that I teach, so that if one explanation doesn't resonate with a student, perhaps another one will. I usually try to have at least one vivid imagery, one anatomical, and one "what it looks like". For example, for side-to-side rib cage slides, the vivid imagery would be boobs on a conveyer belt. The anatomical would refer to the abs and the erector spinae. And the "what it looks like" would be "slide your rib cage horizontally, parallel to the floor". I always start with the "what it looks like" explanation, then assess who gets it versus who needs further help, then bring in the other explanations as needed. Sometimes naming the muscle (as I point to it or invite the student to place her hand on that part of me) is the piece that helps someone get it who was previously struggling.

Rant over. Thank you for letting me rant. argh.

But I enjoyed your rant! Feel free to keep ranting as the inspiration strikes!