Thread: "Self Discovery"

Do we teachers not encourage enough "self discovery" in our students?

I've been around BD since I was 9 years old -- I'm the first to say it doesn't guarantee fabulousness, believe me -- and dancing seriously for over 30 years. I had the privilege to learn about BD the "old world" way, ie, just by being around it as Mom took lessons, practiced, gave lessons, practiced, performed at gigs, and practiced. Even with all that, I'd say that at least 80% of everything I know about movement beyond the absolute basic basics of hip circles, figure 8s, hip lifts/twists and the like are things I *discovered* while practicing or otherwise preparing for a gig. And I only ever did improv, with some basic structure to sets: do the backbend here, do the freeze there, etc. I was free to do anything I wanted, within the confines of MED.

From reading here on Bhuz, it seems that so many of our students want to be taught every little nuance, every little tick, every little flick (or lack thereof), every traveling step . . . they seem afraid to play with what they already know.

Maybe that's it! We are afraid to play?

Now, playing doesn't work if one doesn't have the basics down pat; to try stuff out takes a fair amount of understanding if it isn't to turn into a mushy, hot mess . . . but even what is initially a mushy, hot mess can become something cool and clean by working on it if it's otherwise a good start.

Hmmmmmm . . .

I've really been encouraging my intermediate students to put on their ME music and just play around with movements they know; I don't do exactly the same with the beginners because they don't have enough well-developed vocabulary to work that way, but I do impress upon them that the more they know, and the better they understand how to execute what they know, the more real fun they can have with this thing we love so much.

More hmmmmmmmm . . . .

This topic sure gives me a lot to think about as a teacher of adults, how about you?

Let's play around with some of these thoughts and post about them here. I'd love to read what people think about this.

Deborah

I have several thoughts on this:

First yes, I do notice this, but I also notice it in the college students in my biology classes. They want to be told exactly what to do, and not have to grapple with a problem or summon creative thought.

Whether this represents some kind of significant change between when we were students and now, I'm not so convinced. I think that those of us wondering this were not typical students. We were too intensively focused on ourselves and our teachers to notice what everyone else was doing.

I was just talking with a second grade teacher who was bemoaning that, 15 years ago, she'd give her students a paperclip, a piece of tape, a piece of string, and a magnet, and tell them to figure out how to make the paperclip float above their desks. They would try things and figure it out pretty quickly. Last year's students sat quietly, waiting for her to tell them how to do it. It's possible that this was a group with no manipulative experimenters and all auditory learners, but that seems statistically unlikely. There seems to be a shift away from conceptual discovery learning towards memorizing discrete data. Creative thinking is very necessary, but it's not testable and thereby demonstrably improved in America's desperate quest to have the "best" schools. My best students are the 45+ ladies who learn what I have to offer and then aren't afraid to look away from my backside and try things out for themselves.

I totally agree with you Casbah!

On my own dance journey, I've always had really good technique, but it wasn't until I started playing and getting creative that the dance really "clicked" for me... which has led me from boring over technical mimicker to actual dancer.

Yes! Casbah you are right on the money!

I had such a hard time getting my intermediate students to "play" and listen to different music. I ended up playing music that I don't use for class (they'd never heard it), and asking them to go to seperate corners of the room and play! ..g.:

They caught on pretty quick. They were not going to be spoon fed. You have to learn good basic moves, and play with those and feeeeeeel them! It's like test driving cars, if you don't get in and turn that key... you are not driving.

Awesome discussion!

Amy Renee
Tallahassee, FL

Originally Posted by queencj

I was just talking with a second grade teacher who was bemoaning that, 15 years ago, she'd give her students a paperclip, a piece of tape, a piece of string, and a magnet, and tell them to figure out how to make the paperclip float above their desks. They would try things and figure it out pretty quickly. Last year's students sat quietly, waiting for her to tell them how to do it. It's possible that this was a group with no manipulative experimenters and all auditory learners, but that seems statistically unlikely. There seems to be a shift away from conceptual discovery learning towards memorizing discrete data. Creative thinking is very necessary, but it's not testable and thereby demonstrably improved in America's desperate quest to have the "best" schools. My best students are the 45+ ladies who learn what I have to offer and then aren't afraid to look away from my backside and try things out for themselves.

This is it exactly. Over the years the focus from a young age has been testing and creative thinking just does not fit on a multiple choice test. Problem is, this type of teaching and learning leaks into other areas of life and becomes a way of learning and being everywhere, not just in the classroom.

There are two kinds of problem students: ones who don't want to think for themselves out of fear or lack of commitment/interest, and ones who don't want to learn because knowledge leads to thinking, which, in turn, interferes with "doing your own thing however you please." The trick as a teacher is instilling a respect for the dance, while encouraging the student to use those parameters as a means of their own self expression. "Respect for the dance" is not limited to geeking on historical accuracy and cultural sensitivity. No matter what style you want to pursue or how much it is fused with something else, there are still standards, established ways of doing things, and good advice acquired by others' years of trial and error. There is more to being in front of an audience than merely wanting to climb on stage and get your ya-yas out.

I am academically minded by nature, so it would not occur to me to be intimidated by the thought that taking up a hobby such as dancing might involve learning factual information and struggling with new concepts, but a lot of people come to dance for recreation, and recreation for them is a less intellectually challenging pursuit. That's okay--not everyone thinks reading or struggling to develop an appreciation for something that seems foreign and weird at first is a fun way to pass the time. Still, one has to wonder how we ever got to a point in the West where students divorced the idea of traditional brain-based learning from our classrooms. If you're coming to class, no matter what you are learning, you shouldn't be shocked at the idea of having to memorize, think, or do exercises to enhance your understanding.

We've hashed over the language analogy in the past, but I want to bring it out again. If you undertake the study of a foreign language, you do so with two ideas: (1) Your ultimate goal is to learn how to express yourself in this other linguistic system, and (2) this system has some set of pronunciation skills/grammar rules/vocabulary where you have to invest cognitive work to master before you can do (1). (2) is a means to (1), and (1) without (2) is nonsense.

[Continued...]

Imagine you are teaching a French class where various students are saying, "I don't want to memorize anything or do any homework.", "Just teach me vocabulary--I don't want any grammar!", "Can I just memorize verb conjugations and skip nouns and adjectives?", and my personal favorites, "I am going to speak and write whatever comes into my head, BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T EVER GIVE ME ANY CORRECTION." and "THIS IS TOO MUCH TO FIGURE OUT. JUST TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT TO SAY." How many competent French speakers could you train with those attitudes? It would be insanity to even try, and yet, here we are with too many students spouting that same short-sighted stupidity in our own classes. How many dance teachers have the nerve to tell students, "You know what? If you just want to hop around without having to invest any effort in your own thinking, maybe you'd be happier in an aerobics class, because I'm here to teach you a multifaceted artistic skill, not just burn a few calories and kill an hour of your time a week. I will be happy to teach you, but you have to be willing to learn first."?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Imagine you are teaching a French class where various students are saying, "I don't want to memorize anything or do any homework.", "Just teach me vocabulary--I don't want any grammar!", "Can I just memorize verb conjugations and skip nouns and adjectives?", and my personal favorites, "I am going to speak and write whatever comes into my head, BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T EVER GIVE ME ANY CORRECTION." and "THIS IS TOO MUCH TO FIGURE OUT. JUST TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT TO SAY." How many competent French speakers could you train with those attitudes?

On the button

Originally Posted by ssipes

I have several thoughts on this:

First yes, I do notice this, but I also notice it in the college students in my biology classes. They want to be told exactly what to do, and not have to grapple with a problem or summon creative thought.

Whether this represents some kind of significant change between when we were students and now, I'm not so convinced. I think that those of us wondering this were not typical students. We were too intensively focused on ourselves and our teachers to notice what everyone else was doing.

For me at least, this mindset comes from a combination of stress and fear. I was often afraid to experiment when trying to solve an academic problem because I was afraid of wasting time on something that might turn out to be a dead end when I had to hand my work in by a scarily soon deadline, and scared to just read around the areas of the subject that interested me and form a holistic understanding because I had exams that wouldn't necessarily be made any easier by having a holistic understanding if I hadn't also done the rote learning.

The sad thing is that I only really enjoyed my degree when I *was* relaxed enough to be able to play with ideas and problems, but it didn't often happen.

Applying this to dance, I suspect many new dancers are afraid to improvise or experiment because they are afraid of failing in some nebulous and scary way that has become ingrained due learning in the past always being associated with exams (and all the fear, anxiety and misery that entails) - but in contrast to the academic situation, there is nothing to lose from failing when dancing other than looking a bit undignified occasionally. Once this sinks in, experimentation becomes much easier ..g.: (at least once you also stop caring too much about looking silly)

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Imagine you are teaching a French class where various students are saying, "I don't want to memorize anything or do any homework.", "Just teach me vocabulary--I don't want any grammar!", "Can I just memorize verb conjugations and skip nouns and adjectives?", and my personal favorites, "I am going to speak and write whatever comes into my head, BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T EVER GIVE ME ANY CORRECTION." and "THIS IS TOO MUCH TO FIGURE OUT. JUST TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT TO SAY." How many competent French speakers could you train with those attitudes? It would be insanity to even try, and yet, here we are with too many students spouting that same short-sighted stupidity in our own classes. How many dance teachers have the nerve to tell students, "You know what? If you just want to hop around without having to invest any effort in your own thinking, maybe you'd be happier in an aerobics class, because I'm here to teach you a multifaceted artistic skill, not just burn a few calories and kill an hour of your time a week. I will be happy to teach you, but you have to be willing to learn first."?

I think you just played a video of my high school French class... it does cross genres (& is just as scary & unfair to those of us who do want to learn!)

as to the original question- YES we need to be teaching this more! kick those baby birds out of the nest & make them fly, gosh darn it! I will give you the tools, I will encourage you to play around at home, I will even make sure you can find appropriate music to practice- but by level 2 students are expected to be able to make up their own mini choreos & improvise, so it IS possible to teach people to play (tho weird to see how many have to be pushed & cajoled into it!)

I agree with the idea that many of us who find this baffling simply started out with a different leaning mentality- or maybe a more positive kinesthetic past learning experience. I've had both types in students of all ages, and the proportion of those willing to experiment without encouragement is about the same across the board- tho the older students tend to be more willing to get fully grounded in the base vocabulary first, & the younger gals seem to have more time & energy for lots of experimenting. Putting them together for group work can produce spectacular results!

At some point, and it's probably after the first three months, teachers should start introducing the idea that the educational process is bigger than just learning what you like and are good at. Being a competent dancer, no matter what style you want, and especially if you want to teach eventually, means that you have to have exposure to lots of different styles and props. You don't have to be equally good at every bit of it, and you won't love every bit equally. That's okay, but sometimes you just have to muddle through in the name of the big picture. These are (usually) adult students, and you can't force them to play along if they want to be stubborn, but a teacher should not be afraid to tell a student, "Opt out at your own risk. You're only hurting yourself by insisting you don't need to know this."

All the analogies are spot on, with the additional element of fear for many not of ME descent that breaking free of any specific movement they've been taught may adulterate the validity of their representation of the dance.

-Devora

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

At some point, and it's probably after the first three months, teachers should start introducing the idea that the educational process is bigger than just learning what you like and are good at. Being a competent dancer, no matter what style you want, and especially if you want to teach eventually, means that you have to have exposure to lots of different styles and props. You don't have to be equally good at every bit of it, and you won't love every bit equally. That's okay, but sometimes you just have to muddle through in the name of the big picture. These are (usually) adult students, and you can't force them to play along if they want to be stubborn, but a teacher should not be afraid to tell a student, "Opt out at your own risk. You're only hurting yourself by insisting you don't need to know this."

I totally agree, Tourbeau! Someone asked me at a workshop recently how "I know so much?" It does not just fall into your lap. You must go after it.

Of course... I'm a little OC about learning this dance! I love it! If you are luke warm, it makes it so much harder to give chase to new dance moves, combos, styles...etc. I don't know if the luke warmness comes from fear, half harted interest, or not having initiative...?

Originally Posted by bnwspots

I totally agree, Tourbeau! Someone asked me at a workshop recently how "I know so much?" It does not just fall into your lap. You must go after it.

Of course... I'm a little OC about learning this dance! I love it! If you are luke warm, it makes it so much harder to give chase to new dance moves, combos, styles...etc. I don't know if the luke warmness comes from fear, half harted interest, or not having initiative...?

RE: the bolded segment:

You know, if somebody is doing this dance for a night out once a week, it doesn't really matter if they are fearful or don't have initiative . . . they're not in this to perform. What concerns me is when folks (I'm talking performing students here) who are performing or who want to perform show half-hearted interest or won't expand their horizons a bit by taking a chance with "playing around" with what they already know.

Deborah

edited out some stuff 'cause I realized it didn't sound very nice . . .

Deborah,

I understand what you are saying. Yes, if the person is a once a week "fun" class taker... it's not as bad.

However... it really hurt/shocked me when people, who I know are constantly performing and out representing MED, are unable to stretch/reach out, set higher dance goals, or just learn something new about the culture.

In re to Tourbeau's post, I was agreeing with the part about being a 3 month old (or older) dancer. That should be about the time a teacher encourages the "outside of class" study. "Arm chair dancers" should fall under the "opt out at your own risk" clause. What if? What if one day you no longer want to be an arm chair dancer (gee that might sound bad...). What will you do if you've not stretch your boundaries or reached for a higher goal? You'll be stuck in low gear, looking back at all the lessons you've taken, and asking why am I not a super-duper dancer? I just ache to see folks missing so much.

Gosh, I can't count the number of things I figured out by practicing in my living room.

Amy Renee

When I was on Grad school the first time, I co taught a class. It was a lecture class and I built in 10 mins at the end of class for Q & A. After the third class where no one had questions, comments or anything, I threw them all out! Because, as I told them, if all they wanted was someone to feed them info like their mothers fed them pablum, they needed to go back to nursery school. If they wanted to be in University, they needed to ask questions, challenge me and all their instructors. By the end of my section, the majority of the students were asking questions, challenging me, actually catching me when I was not completely right! Thank all the powers that be that I have little invested in being the "Expert." My fellow Grad students weren't happy with me, because they suddenly had to be on their toes!

Most people haven't been given permission to THINK for themselves. And because of that, they have little self confidence in their ability to make decisions. And they are afraid of being wrong. They are very cerebral in their approach because they have never given themselves permission to be anything else. But dance is not simply a brain thing. It's a heart and soul thing. It's intuitive and feeling. The only way to develop these areas is to let go of the analytical side in favor of the esoteric. And let's face it, for many people, that is a scary place to go.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by casbahdance

You know, if somebody is doing this dance for a night out once a week, it doesn't really matter if they are fearful or don't have initiative . . . they're not in this to perform. What concerns me is when folks (I'm talking performing students here) who are performing or who want to perform show half-hearted interest or won't expand their horizons a bit by taking a chance with "playing around" with what they already know.

I don't have anything against the exercise-only and girls'-night-out-bonding crowds when they admit this is what they want from the dance, but the ones who want to have their cake (only invest a teeny amount of spoon-fed time per week) and eat it, too (perform) are a problem for us as a whole. They're often the ones who are the MOST interested in playing dress up at the local Maronite Church's festival, and the Women's Fitness Expo, and the opening of the new Egyptian exhibit at the museum--but when it comes to investing money in anything but costumes and minimal classes? Hmm, not always in the budget. (Hint: If you only register for workshops so you can perform in the shows and you spend the session in the back of the room gossiping and cruising the vendor tables, you are experiencing a Thirst for Knowledge FAIL.)

As if this bunch is going to take the initiative to Google things for themselves... (No excuses. If you've already paid for your Internet connection, YouTube, GS, and Shira.net are free.) A while ago, I was at a workshop that was about famous Egyptian dancers and their stylistic hallmarks. You would have cried at the number of attendees--dancers I've been seeing at workshops for years--who were scrambling to get their pens and notebooks to write down the names of these mysterious dancers they'd never heard of before... "Samia What's-Her-Name? Souheir Who?" These names were on the workshop flyer and a conscientious student might have looked them up before the class so they had some semblance of an idea of what they'd paid money to spend the afternoon learning! Better late than never (assuming they followed up instead of just stuffing their notebooks back in their dance bags), but still...ARGH!

Originally Posted by ssipes

First yes, I do notice this, but I also notice it in the college students in my biology classes. They want to be told exactly what to do, and not have to grapple with a problem or summon creative thought.

my undergrad was in costume design, im now getting a masters in forest and natural resource policy. part of why i was accepted is my art background and the fact that having art classes teaches you to be a creative problem solver, because there isn't a single right answer like in math classes.
im not saying everyone needs a BA/BFA but art and free-play (remember going outside and making up games? or playing make-believe instead of wii?) are VERY IMPORTANT parts of mental development that get overlooked because they can't be measured or standardized.
that is part of why i love BD, it's so much about things that can't be measured and encouraging feeling.

What a great topic! I'm always striving to grow as a teacher; trying new techniques, learning from other teachers, refining my format. I have a couple of thoughts on this:

I come from a classical dance and fitness background, so the focus of my classes is line, posture, and technical skill. Not just what are we doing, but where are our bodies in space, what muscle groups are motivating the movement, how to dance from our core and hold our bodies from toes to fingers. But for the steps themselves, I encourage a lot of play and imagination. I have mostly learned this dance alone in my living room, and I'm definitely an improv dancer. I don't think of myself as a teacher of bellydance so much as a guide through this dance, and my goal is to help each student find her own voice, style, and intrinsic expression.

The best compliment I have ever gotten on my classes is that I don't try to create clones of me, but I help each dancer find her own style. That meant a lot to me! I think we can all hone and improve our formats, and give our students the technical skills and movement vocabulary that they need. But we can all try to encourage a little more play and expression! I'm glad you got me thinking about this!

I just have to say this.
Everytime I see this title I giggle outloud b/c I think it is talking about "self discovery" in a masterbating way.
Sorry, carry on!!!!

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I just have to say this.
Everytime I see this title I giggle outloud b/c I think it is talking about "self discovery" in a masterbating way.
Sorry, carry on!!!!

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

Being as I am pure as the driven snow as I am, I have to admit that your "take" didn't occur to me at the time, but I think it's hilarious, Michelle!

Deborah

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I just have to say this.
Everytime I see this title I giggle outloud b/c I think it is talking about "self discovery" in a masterbating way.
Sorry, carry on!!!!

Sounds like a great journey! He, he, he...

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

Being as I am pure as the driven snow

Teeeheee. RIGHT!! ..l;,
Thanks for allowing me to laugh several times a day!!

Originally Posted by Michelle75

Thanks for allowing me to laugh several times a day!!

Happy to be of service.

.w.:

Uhhhhhh . . . so to speak.

*runs off to think of other topics which can carry double entendere titles*

..l;,

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Happy to be of service.

.w.:

Uhhhhhh . . . so to speak.

*runs off to think of other topics which can carry double entendere titles*

..l;,

Deborah

Oh, I can't wait to see what you come up with next!!!..l;,

Slaps her own hand *bad girl*

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

(Hint: If you only register for workshops so you can perform in the shows and you spend the session in the back of the room gossiping and cruising the vendor tables, you are experiencing a Thirst for Knowledge FAIL.)

So familiar, so true.

Originally Posted by ssipes

So familiar, so true.

Thanks for bringing us back to topic, Sedonia!

Along these same lines, (only signing up for workshops if able to be in the show), I can say that I first really came across this mindset when I started producing my festival.

Although my festival does not have a "must take the workshop to dance" clause, I've come across a number of folks who will not attend a festival or event of any kind at which they cannot dance. What about taking the opportunity to see other dancers -- the professional, the good and the "don't let this happen to you"?

On the other hand, there are plenty of folks who attend events -- and not dance -- for this very reason. I salute you!

Deborah

[I wanted to write something else at the end, but it sounded 'way too mean, even if it's true]

In the end, I think it may just be about fear of looking silly in public. I know it would be for me. Sure, I could do whatever I feel like, but I'd be afraid that whatever I "discover" may have other people looking at me going, "what is she DOING?" or "that's not a belly dance move!" or "that's not the way to do that move!" I'm one of those people who really hates looking like a fool in public for some reason, so maybe I understand this fear pretty well. Who wants to finally get up the chutzpah to dance in public, only to have other people immediately shuffle them into the "not a real dancer" camp? I mean, there's just "bad dancer," and then there's "dancer who doesn't look like s/he has actually studied the dance at all," and I would imagine that playing around in the wrong way could make a person who resembles the latter. I think that's essentially what Devora said. And, too, learning something like improv takes a lot of trial and error...it can get discouraging to mess up a zillion times without doing it right, and feel like you're working at something without getting anywhere.

And frankly, if I'm taking a class from a teacher, yes, I want to be told how to do this...I am not paying to be told "oh, y'know, just figure it out on your own and do whatever feels right to you." I'll take some responsibility for my own learning, and am willing to grow more exploratory the more I learn, but especially in the beginning, I don't know enough to know what is right or wrong, or what works and what doesn't, and yes, I expect to be told, especially as I'm not sure if what I'm working on at home is correct or if I'll have to unlearn it and relearn the correct way later.

It's also possible that these people are used to training in a more regimented art form/career/whatever and can't conceive of something more free. My first form of dance is Highland dance. There's such a thing as making up a choreography and doing it, but it's rare (and in competition, it is usually only allowed to dancers in the highest level, so a person may dance for several years before they even attempt it, if they ever do at all). Far, far more usual is doing the traditional dances--each has several steps you can choose from, but each step has certain ways of moving that are done a certain way and if you don't do it that way or if you add a different movement...well, it's wrong. And there may be a certain order to the steps as well--many of the dances have certain first and last steps, and it's only in between that you can add whichever [of the prescribed] steps you want. You can "feel" the music within the correct methods of doing that step, but that doesn't change that on count 1, your foot goes here, and on count 2, it goes here, and no matter where you are in the world, a correctly-executed step will look exactly the same no matter who is dancing it. Imagine going from "when you move your foot from the back of your leg to the front of your leg, this is how you do it," to, "listen to this music and do whatever you think fits!"

In addition...well, we do live in a world where many people's actions are more and more regulated. There are people out there who often don't have the choice of solving problems, or doing things, their own way while at work and such--it's always told to them how they must do something, and finding their own way, even if it's a way that works out fine, is wrong. Whether this translates into other things in their lives because they no longer know how to trust their own judgment, or it just becomes rusty, I don't know.

I'm not saying it's a good thing that people are afraid to do their own thing, and if they're professionals they certainly should be furthering their own study, but I think it's certainly understandable, and can't all be easily boiled down to "they're lazy" or "they're not motivated" or "they're boring and uncreative" or "they don't want to try."