Thread: Polished Style- where does it come from?

When I watch a graceful dancer such as Aziza dance, especially when I see a graceful dancer dancing with a veil, I wonder what training/instruction gives the dancer that polished, smooth look.You know, where the transitions are smooth, and the arms are polished, arm movements seeming to just be an extension of the rest of the body's movement? All the body parts are in sync, rather than seeming as if parts of the body are not commuicating with the others.

Does this question make sense?

Is it classical dance training, a particular type of drill that can be practiced at home, a visualization exercise? How does a dancer get her dancing to look smooth like silk?

Thanks!

if you find the answer, let us know ;-) ;-) ;-)

my guesses
- yes, classical training, cross training
- years of restaurant/club work: dancing/performing on a daily basis
- practice practice practice

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

if you find the answer, let us know ;-) ;-) ;-)

my guesses
- yes, classical training, cross training
- years of restaurant/club work: dancing/performing on a daily basis
- practice practice practice

All those things.

Mostly practice. And good teachers who give useful corrections. Then more practice...

MEISSOUN

ha, i didnt even mention teachers. teachers are a prerequisite (most difficult english word i know), but the question was how to get the pollish, on top of that...

"good feedback/criticism" is a good one though...

(hehe, and for some: competitions.... (runs and hides))

The visualization that Aziza uses in her veil video when thinking about transitions is to "keep the pencil on the paper" and flow straight through onto the next move. She's so amazing at that, and it helps me to keep that in the back of my head while dancing.

I'm sure also, that it's the confidence that comes with all the practice, daily performing, and cross-training that makes one so smooth and lovely. Ahhhh, to have even half of that fluidity some day....

It seems when i watch dancers who use choreography they forget to keep moving between the counts ,set of 8 stop set of 8 stop it makes the dancing look choppy, also arms should be used to flow into the moves, i think of them as conducting my body with them . dance any chance you get ,tape yourself you will be surprised how much your own criticism will improve your dancing. breathing into your movements and good posture can make a big difference in how your dancing will look.

Lol I call it "goo."

To me what makes a good dancer is Goo.
Goo is like a rubber band that is adding resistance to your body so that your fluid. I also think of goo is the "emotion" that a dancer adds.
I'm still working on my goo.

FYI: I've been taking lyrical and ballroom and it seems to be helping with my arms and veil work.

Originally Posted by azahara

It seems when i watch dancers who use choreography they forget to keep moving between the counts ,set of 8 stop set of 8 stop it makes the dancing look choppy, also arms should be used to flow into the moves, i think of them as conducting my body with them . dance any chance you get ,tape yourself you will be surprised how much your own criticism will improve your dancing. breathing into your movements and good posture can make a big difference in how your dancing will look.

azahara, it drives me crazy when dancers don't keep the flow, but I don't think this is necessarily a choreography thing. With a good, polished dancer, you can't tell it's choreography.

I agree with everything else you said, especially about breathing into the movements. Very good advice.

I think conscious practice is a big part of it (practising wrong just makes you a better clunky dancer). It takes 10 000 repetitions to get a skill right - but first you need to know how to produce it - feedback from the mirror, video, teachers etc. The "smoothness" is training your muscles to work in a co-ordinated way and overcoming reflexes which produce the wrong effect.

Basically - time. I recall an afternoon spent working on an 8-count phrase that required exact positioning. First get the position in the mirror. Then be able to get it without the mirror. And then strengthen so the muscles don't fatigue inconveniently. Soon after that I decided beledi was more my style

Randa does it with out goo all the time. She goes staccato, then glue, then pause, then run, then goo. And she still manages to look graceful & controlled. Yasmina of Cairo said that tight muscle control is the key.

I would say practice your transitions, a lot!! They can make or break a dancer, dance as often as possible, the more you do it, the better you will get! If you only dance once a week, it will take a long time to become fluid.

isnt this the million dollar question! I think its everything, and all in the smallest details: posture, arms, transitions, breath, stage, costume, musicality, personality, emotionality all come together. And you get that through a REALLY critical teacher, practice, practice, practice, experience, confidence, and, well...life.

Some people just have natural skill, too.

Prior to the polishing phase is the sanding, and for that I say: rubber sanding pads. For wet sanding, finish sanding or for shaping any curved surface, an automotive color-sanding pad works very well. If you've never seen one, they're made of 1/4" thick semi-porous rubber and are 2 1/2" by 5 1/2" (the perfect size to wrap a half sheet of sandpaper around). It has a series of holes in it and one side has nubs on it to aid in "cutting" while the other side is smooth for finish sanding. This type of pad can be purchased at any automotive paint store.

I'm sorry. Work is slow today.

Originally Posted by kashmir

The "smoothness" is training your muscles to work in a co-ordinated way and overcoming reflexes which produce the wrong effect.

The minds boggles that such a simple sentence can hold so much meaning... is this not the story of our collective dancing lives?

Seriously though That is the secret, simply training our bodies so they don't get in the way of us and the music. The upside is that the body is So trainable... the downside is it has to be trained correctly if you really want to be something spectacular.

Another element is time, even the most fabulous newbie will still look pretty raw for a few years no matter how much talent they have. Seeing students come through our school over the years I would put that "smoothness"... the sort where the dancer looks as comfortable in her movement as she does in her own skin... at 5+ yrs (if I had to put a time on it) But of course not everyone achieves that.

For target exercises I will second Aradia and say to work on transitions so you are consistently creating a seamless line.

Originally Posted by azahara

It seems when i watch dancers who use choreography they forget to keep moving between the counts ,set of 8 stop set of 8 stop

Oooooh, I have a video of myself dancing at a BIG event. And I can literally see my brain going "what's next? what's next?"
I do one combo - then the next. Always a little space inbetween. ,f::

And the solution? Again: practice!
I did the same choreography again later, after much more practice, and behold! I danced smoothly!

MEISSOUN

yes to all the above.

and also, studying the music. not necessarily the notes them selves, but listening to the music and intuitively knowing the rhythmic progressions, cadence, variations in intensity and "flow" of different types of ME music.

imo: when your brain intuitively knows where the music will go, it is much easier to express it with your body.

i think it helps if you can really feel the music in your body....when it's part of you and not just a song anymore.

The one thing that stands out for me personally, when I watch a great dancer is the way she moves with the music.Not only does she know what is coming next but if there is a rise in the tone she lifts on the balls of her feet. If the tone lowers she bends in the knee.
Know what I mean?

Aziza did a workshop on 'flow' when she came over to the UK and she said it was about strength which was a big surprise to all of us I think. She gave us lots and lots of drills for different parts of the body which were all killing!!

She said you have to do the drills over and over again so your body is in good condition to do what you want it to. And also so that the movement is in your muscle memory.

There's also the pencil on the paper thing she talks about, but she gave us the impression that the most important thing was having a body that was strong and supple and capable of doing what you wanted.

So no short cuts unfortunately

I was thinking about this last night.
When we start out, we spend hours trying to isolate our bodies, making sure that only the one part moves (and this is necessary, because another sure sign of a beginning dancer is that she isn't in control of all of her body's actions)...

Then as advanced students, they start teaching you to add the natural movements back in. Like, Tuesday night in class, our teacher had us doing one-sided hip circles and then added in a chest circle to enhance the look of the hip circle. And then if you got that, add in a little head motion. Altogether, it looked really natural on her - like an organic dance movement, not like three movements layered together. But the only way to get there was to first learn how to isolate all those parts, and then add them back together. You wouldn't get the same effect otherwise.

This has been a very interesting thread. I had the same question months ago but I didn't think it could be answered so I hadn't asked it here. I've been trying to work on my polish. For me, I thought I need to get in control of my hands. Reading this thread has given me a ton of other ideas. And the impression that I need to drill more. Antoher realization I've had is that in beginning classes, you drill constantly. When you get into more intermediate/advanced class, they stop drilling so much because I think you are supposed to be doing it on your own. Of course, I don't drill most of the time. My practices consist of videos or improvising to music. If Aziza says that dancers need to drill - then I better start drilling more often.

How do you guys organize your drill sessions? Do you come up with a list of moves you need to work through? I'm thinkng of putting up a whiteboard in my studio. I need something to focus me or I'll drift off and just start dancing to the music instead.

This is what I work on with my professional class. They have the technique, what they lack is that "oomf" or "goo" that make a dancer more.

I've got some goo, more than I have tehcnique. So, that's what I teach! Performing is an art all its own. It's not stringing together moves, it's moving in a way that makes all movement, well, "on". Tough to do, tough to teach.

I'll never have Azziza quantities! But I'll keep trying.

Kitty

Amity's got more than she thinks....

Isn't drilling the same as learning to control your body by repeating moves untill you can do them without thinking about it? Some stuff that I learned last week about adding a new movement to your vocabulary:

-it takes your body app. 3 weeks to learn a basic new skill, wether it's riding a bicycle, or a hip drop. This means that you're body will remember the required move and will reproduce it in the future. It says absolutely nothing about your skill. You often cannot reach this knowledge conciously. If you had to think about it all the time, you couldn't execute the move.

-with time, you learn to perfect the basic skill so you have time to combine it with something else. Like an experienced driver who can drive and talk at the same time.

I think the complicated thing about dance is that it's something that you need to do with your whole body and it's really hard to get fysical feedback from your own body when you're dancing. My arms never complained about being limp and having helicopter hands. I need to conciously work on perfecting a move so I can unconciously perform it when the music calls for it.

back to the goo-thing: I have some goo now, and I got it through drilling and practicing, focusing on a different bodypart every 6 months. In an ideal world, I would drill all bodyparts/moves intensively every day. In a less ideal world, I look at a recent video of myself, pick a weak point and work on that for a while. For getting more goo in I add a 10 minute improvisation part at the end of my practice.

I'm trying to teach my students how to string stuff together and get some goo in, it's fun to watch them improvise and see how some of them are really strong in one part of the body and weak in another. It gives me ideas about what they need to work on during the next class.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

If Aziza says that dancers need to drill - then I better start drilling more often.

How do you guys organize your drill sessions? Do you come up with a list of moves you need to work through? I'm thinkng of putting up a whiteboard in my studio. I need something to focus me or I'll drift off and just start dancing to the music instead.

Aziza's Practice Companion DVD has lots of her drills in it. But her drills aren't just about doing a movement over and over again, it's about doing it in such a way as you get strength and control. So for example she had us doing figure of eights sooooo sloooowwwww - doing each figure of eight over 16 counts, then gradually speeding up - over eight counts, four, then finally two.

And she got us to work with the psoas muscle, trying to find it and isolate and use it to create really controlled figure of eights.

and hand ripples for ages and she emphasised that you need to work your hands really strongly - so they ache!

If you need focus then definitely buy her Practice Companion.

Nice thread - I've got some great advice from it.
Incidentally my background is in Music - and one thing that transfers really well to dance is working moves very slow and very strong -concentrating on getting absolutely smooth - or absolutely controlled technique- Morrocco uses this too, and it forces you to pay attention to every moment in a move istead of conveniently skipping past the awkward bit. Really sets the move well in muscle memory- so make sure it's right to start with!

[QUOTE

And she got us to work with the psoas muscle, trying to find it and isolate and use it to create really controlled figure of eights.

Fabby - I'm always screaming (not Literally! ) about the Psoas and IllioPsoas muscles to my students - any trying to help them find them - or at least strenghen them , - nice to know other (better) teachers (all hail Aziza) consider them crucial.

first what are the psoas and illiopsoas muscles?

I remember Aziza saying in a workshop to do a move or drill at least 8 times to get it into your muscle memory before moving on.

Lotus Niraja said to do those moves really slow to build control and strength. i've been working on that lately.

i did notice that goo factor. ti's amazing how suhair zaki can make it look so smooth and fluid and natural and when you start it is just about isolation and one at a time. nice observation nepenthe.

I think i just started deveoloping goo in the last year. what helped me was seeing more performance. i spent all those years just being in class and not performing and not seeing performances. now it's a whole new world.

Originally Posted by rakgirl

first what are the psoas and illiopsoas muscles?

I remember Aziza saying in a workshop to do a move or drill at least 8 times to get it into your muscle memory before moving on.

The illiopsoas is the combination of the iliacus muscle which goes from the inside of the pelvis to the femur and the psoas which goes from the lower back to the femur. One of the "hip flexors".

Eight is a little low! A new underlying muscle recruitment pattern takes much more - 10,000 is what I've been told. A combination which draws on existing recruitment patterns would be much less - but more than 8 times. In workshops I've attended with Dr Mo or Yoursy (both heavy drillers) we usually drilled a pattern for over 10 minutes.

I agree with most on here who said practice, teachers and more practice. Also I think that when you start out performing at more places there are certain "hurtles" to overcome. The first is almost always getting out of your head and into your dance, then comes stage fright and overcoming it, who and what to look at etc - you know, stuff you didn't learn in class. After the first few hurtles and you start dancing out more you come across more, slightly more difficult hurtles. For me those were staying in the "flow", moving as the music, and transitioning from small restaurant dancing to larger stage dancing. Obviously these don't happen within everyone at the same time, some don't ever happen at all. It just depends on what you are concentrating on in your own studies. By far the best thing you can do to inspire more "goo" is to dance your heart out everytime you dance. To get up there and give every single one of your dances 100% of you at all times I think is the BEST way to attain that "je ne sais quois" that we all drool over. I've seen it in seasoned dancers that are just starting to really come into themselves - it's a beautiful thing.