Thread: Wishy washy students

Hmmm! After sending out a newsletter about next years planned classes a student who's currently taking a break from classes replies that - she would like to join the studio again next year but she doesnt want to commit 100% because she likes to go to class for fun and relaxation.

How do you deal with students who arent that committed?

I honestly dont see how I can accomodate this person - my classes run through the year and each lesson builds on nest and includes choreography in preparaton for our year end show.

..c::

Most students are in for the fun and are not dedicated like the instructor. You need to decide if you are going to focus on the serious dancers (and have considerably fewer students) or if you want to cater to more women, including the casual hobbyist.

I'm teaching Adults. The upside to this is that they are usually quite committed to their studies. The downside is that they are able to make their own decisions about how to spend their time. If the classes are not what they want to do on a particular evening, then they have the option not to attend.

I teach recreational learners, hardly any of my students want to go pro. I can't expect my learners to be as enthusiastic in their study of dance as I am. That means accepting that sometimes they won't be there, because there's a parent-teacher evening, or husband has to work late and there's no-one to mind the kids, or it's a beautiful summer evening and they would rather sit in the garden drinking Pimms. Or they have to look after their elderly mother. That doesn't make them flakey.

If that means they don't learn as well as they might, that's their choice. If that means they don't know the choreo well enough to perform in the show, that's their choice.

These learners are not my children, I can't control them! All I can do is make my classes as fun and interesting as I can, and encourage/enthuse them towards wanting to perform, so that my class is something that they *want* to do each week.

I give 2 hours in my week programe as mixed level for fun in Bellydance.
I send all the students of this style in this class even if they started from other normal class ,r:;

Everybody has their own goals and what they would like to accomplish. I think it is good that this lady is able to express her preferences and be upfront about her goals. Not everybody wants to perform or become a professional, or may have different phases where goals change - and what's wrong with that?

If you feel that your classes are not a good match for her, maybe you can suggest a teacher who would be.

I would offer to let her rejoin at the beginner level when the spirit moves her, or refer her to a teacher who has lower standards.

This came up the other day in a different thread. We have such low expectations of students that we encourage this kind of thinking. We need to admit it:

THE REASON STUDENTS ACT LIKE FLAKES IS BECAUSE WE LET THEM.

People are people. The vast majority are content to get away with the bare minimum. Teachers who set guidelines and expect students to fulfill them have less of this garbage to deal with. Maybe they drive away a few students, but so what? What good is a student who doesn't care if she's learning and who thinks it's her right to have other people make allowances for her carelessness? This is not the same as expecting every student to train like they're aiming for the lead in the Bolshoi Ballet's production of "Swan Lake." This is about expecting MINIMAL RESPECT: for the teacher, for the other students, for what the student is spending her own money on! Occasionally people have to miss class, but there is a difference between accommodating a conscientious, mature student and enabling irresponsible, inconsiderate behavior. Who remembers Goofus & Gallant from "Highlights"?

Goofus didn't feel like coming to class.
Gallant e-mailed the teacher to explain he was sick, and made arrangements to catch up on the missed material before the next class.

Goofus didn't bother to practice the class choreography.
Gallant told the teacher he was confused by part of the choreography, and asked if he could schedule a private lesson to help him learn it.

Goofus forgot to show up at three rehearsals in a row and still expected to be in the show.
Gallant called the troupe leader to apologize, and accepted that missing rehearsals meant he was cut from the upcoming performance.

When there are no repercussions for not being a diligent student, you are putting the burden of behavior on the individual. There are always going to be goofballs, but you can minimize them through your authority as a teacher (you don't have to promote students or let them perform if they're not holding up their end of the educational bargain), and by leveraging peer pressure within the classroom. When one student gets away with misbehaving, it encourages others to think they can do the same. When good behavior is rewarded and the consequences of bad behavior are reinforced, students will gravitate toward doing the right things.

Im dealing with Goofus here! ..l;, *sigh*

I do have a fun class - but she wont go to it because its "too beginner" LOL.

As for refering her to another teacher - she's been dancing for years and knows all the local teachers but prefers my style.

My feeling is that if you really want to do something you give it 100%. I dont see the point of starting something you have no intention of applying yourself to.

If you want to destress go have a massage. If you want to dress up - go to a ren faire.

lol. Ive discussed this with her before, basically she wants all the fun (performing with our troupe, dressing up) without any of the work and thats just not going to happen. The funny thing is its MORE stressful trying to perform stuff you dont know than it is to just come to class, learn the dance and tow the line.

Originally Posted by alibelly

I do have a fun class - but she wont go to it because its "too beginner" LOL.

As for refering her to another teacher - she's been dancing for years and knows all the local teachers but prefers my style.

My feeling is that if you really want to do something you give it 100%. I dont see the point of starting something you have no intention of applying yourself to.

If you want to destress go have a massage. If you want to dress up - go to a ren faire.

lol. Ive discussed this with her before, basically she wants all the fun (performing with our troupe, dressing up) without any of the work and thats just not going to happen. The funny thing is its MORE stressful trying to perform stuff you dont know than it is to just come to class, learn the dance and tow the line.

I don't think you need to make any accommodations for this student. You already offer two tracks -- one just for fun, one more advanced. She wants the best of both worlds... well don't we all really? Don't we want to play all day and make money? Eat all we want and stay slender? etc etc etc.

It's natural to feel that way, but grownup to know you have to make choices.


"Yes, I understand how you feel. If you want to tackle advanced material and represent the studio and this artform in performance, that does require a commitment, and I realize not everyone can make that commitment. Depends on your motivation, what else is going on in your life, etc. If you're not able to commit and just want to dance for fun, that's fine, you're still welcome in the XXX class. Just be sure to let me know what you decide so I know if I need to hold space for you."

I teach a college class and those who are really committed as opposed to doing it to keep fit or just learn the basics or having a bit of fun, join me and others on another evening where we do work as a performance group. I don't do a choreography except as a demonstration as how to put moves together. Like Bea,most ladies ( I've no guys so far)have no intentions of going pro and just want to do something different. Classes simply don't run without the un-committed unless you teach a few people in semi-privates. I have an ex-student who is now a "pro" and a current student who is. I expect these people to go beyond me to workshops and privates with those who do dance professionally.
I think there is a great difference between those who are what I call JAGs (Just a giggles) and those who are in it for fun but want to make a really good go of it. I find that college students do come with a serious approach and with the normal take-up of one or two each intake deciding belly dance is for them.

There should be more teachers like you! I appreciate instructors who care about their 'more serious' students. I work my butt off for dance and really get irritated when people show up off and on and slow us all down. Nurture the students who come consistently and pay consistently! Rules within reason are good.

I so wish I could have a teacher like you, OP. My studio offers nothing but mixed-level "fun" classes. Nothing for the serious dancer. :(

Well, if this is a performance oriented class and the student isn't going to make the commitment to the performance oriented class, then the class isn't for her. And that's okay.

The hard part is telling her so and sticking to your rules.

Deborah

ETA: I'm one of those people that Lauren descibes: "Don't we want to play all day and make money?" The wonderful thing about teaching and gigging is that I feel like I get to play and make money at the same time! I think it annoys my husband to no end that I actually come home on a high after teaching and he's so glad to get away from his bosses. Well, that and the fact that I don't bring much money into the family . . . .w.:

Originally Posted by alibelly

I do have a fun class - but she wont go to it because its "too beginner" LOL.

I'd just say, "I don't currently run a recreational-style class for anything above the beginner level, and have no plans to offer one in the future. If you're not able to make the commitment required for the higher level class, I'm afraid don't have another option for you."

As for refering her to another teacher - she's been dancing for years and knows all the local teachers but prefers my style.

The she is going to have to decide what's more important, studying the style she prefers and making the commitment required, or switching to another teacher/style who can offer her a more casual class. Like Lauren says, she wants it both ways, and she can't have it.

You can't make every or even most students fall in love with and become dedicated to BD, and it's crazy-making to try and do so. All you can do is run your classes in a way that encourages those who do develop a passion for the dance, and make sure those who do have someplace to grow.

Well, if your classes really do build on previous lessons, then she will figure it out for herself when she comes back. It should only be a concern for you if you were planning to use that class time for rehearsal. I would resist the urge to catch her up on class time, is all. Are drop-ins allowed? If not, then she has to make her own decisions anyway...don't beat yourself up over her desire to have a more casual dance experience :)

I totally sympathize with your situation. I'm having my own struggles right now with teaching and whether or not I want to continue.

We had a long e-mail exchange about it where I told her that she needed to come to 75% of classes in order to perform or go to the fun class. For some reason she thinks that that conversation doesnt apply to next year. LOL

Anyway - I offer what I offer and its up to her really. It just wears me down a bit.

Thanks for all the feedback and listening to my mini rant! : )

Originally Posted by alibelly

We had a long e-mail exchange about it where I told her that she needed to come to 75% of classes in order to perform or go to the fun class. For some reason she thinks that that conversation doesnt apply to next year. LOL

Anyway - I offer what I offer and its up to her really. It just wears me down a bit.

Thanks for all the feedback and listening to my mini rant! : )

I feel your pain! Most of try so hard to be "fair" and clear - and try TOO hard - as we simply can't be all things to all dancers, particularly those of the have-cake-and-eat-it-too variety. And we get annoyed...or I do... "Didn't I already go OVER THAT?!" It's me ego talking..
To run our businesses as best we can to benefit ourselves & clients and not get CRAZY!..g.: is an ongoing, reformulating process.
For me, every time I thought, "Okey-dokey, that's it, I got it all figured out now, I'll proceed just like this ____________" - hah! Some other "issue" would come up. I discover that: keep an open mind, accept others' and my own shortcomings but keep working on my own, take care of myself (that's a good one to figure out!!), continue to study & learn (I like to study business models also besides dance & art content!) are some of what works for me now. I got an accounting degree in my spare time ..l;, as I got more interested in the nuts and bolts of business. That's after teaching English "in my youth", then working in a restaurant 25+ yrs. You just never know what life has in store.
Sounds you know what's what and needed some venting & support!

Originally Posted by laura 2

I'd just say, "I don't currently run a recreational-style class for anything above the beginner level ... If you're not able to make the commitment required for the higher level class, I'm afraid don't have another option for you."

This is wonderful response! I likey!

The she is going to have to decide what's more important, studying the style she prefers and making the commitment required, or switching to another teacher/style who can offer her a more casual class. Like Lauren says, she wants it both ways, and she can't have it.

You can't make every or even most students fall in love with and become dedicated to BD, and it's crazy-making to try and do so. All you can do is run your classes in a way that encourages those who do develop a passion for the dance, and make sure those who do have someplace to grow.

Yup. 1000%. Yup.

Deborah

Originally Posted by lizajuk

I teach a college class and those who are really committed as opposed to doing it to keep fit or just learn the basics or having a bit of fun, join me and others on another evening where we do work as a performance group. I don't do a choreography except as a demonstration as how to put moves together. Like Bea,most ladies ( I've no guys so far)have no intentions of going pro and just want to do something different. Classes simply don't run without the un-committed unless you teach a few people in semi-privates. I have an ex-student who is now a "pro" and a current student who is. I expect these people to go beyond me to workshops and privates with those who do dance professionally.
I think there is a great difference between those who are what I call JAGs (Just a giggles) and those who are in it for fun but want to make a really good go of it. I find that college students do come with a serious approach and with the normal take-up of one or two each intake deciding belly dance is for them.

This echoes my experience. Some of my semi-private students have become very accomplished and dance professionally themselves.

One problem I've encountered though - people getting intimidated by them in open classes.

Not sure what to do about that. I would have thought that their presence would be inspiring.

?

Originally Posted by LiesaB.

I feel your pain! Most of try so hard to be "fair" and clear - and try TOO hard - as we simply can't be all things to all dancers, particularly those of the have-cake-and-eat-it-too variety. And we get annoyed...or I do... "Didn't I already go OVER THAT?!" It's me ego talking..
To run our businesses as best we can to benefit ourselves & clients and not get CRAZY!..g.: is an ongoing, reformulating process.
For me, every time I thought, "Okey-dokey, that's it, I got it all figured out now, I'll proceed just like this ____________" - hah! Some other "issue" would come up. I discover that: keep an open mind, accept others' and my own shortcomings but keep working on my own, take care of myself (that's a good one to figure out!!), continue to study & learn (I like to study business models also besides dance & art content!) are some of what works for me now. I got an accounting degree in my spare time ..l;, as I got more interested in the nuts and bolts of business. That's after teaching English "in my youth", then working in a restaurant 25+ yrs. You just never know what life has in store.
Sounds you know what's what and needed some venting & support!

Hah hah. Restaurants...l;,..l;,..l;,

It's an adventure isn't it?

My one regret, not having been smarter about the business side of the business.

Boy did I screw THAT up.

This student simply needs to be referred to a teacher who holds various level classes that do not revolve around choreography.

-Devora

I'm the wishy washy one, you might say. I like my classes okay, but can't get to all of them. This is real life, and stuff happens. People get sick, cars break down. Sometimes I don't feel like coming. And it's a long drive.

And sometimes having it all focused on some performance several months away is not that much fun. The pressure to learn quickly is not that much fun.

And there is a beginner's class and an intermediate class, and that's all. If you're in intermediate, you're expected to learn all the routines. No improv, no listening to music, very little variety, just choreo, choreo, choreo.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Originally Posted by nadyasidhe

I'm the wishy washy one, you might say. I like my classes okay, but can't get to all of them. If you're in intermediate, you're expected to learn all the routines. No improv, no listening to music, very little variety, just choreo, choreo, choreo.

Don't give up, Nadyasidhe! I had the exact same experience when I relocated a few years ago - steps and technique taught in a new instructor's beginner class seemed so promising, but then the intermediate class was only about combining those same steps into a variety of choreos for group performances. I had employment requiring work on random evenings that caused me to miss enough classes that it was not possible keep up without disrupting the flow of the class, so I left.

I ended up taking classes with Cory Zamora, who is well-known on this thread for her old-school style (you can also find her on youtube). She is a great example of a teacher who continually shares new steps and technique in various styles, but encourages her students to combine them and improvise in their own individual way. I previously had a similar positive experience in Amina Goodyear's classes in San Francisco.

Keep looking for someone who offers a different teaching format, or let Bhuzzers know where you live and maybe someone can give you a referral. In the meantime, you might enjoy attending occasional workshops to maintain your dance enthusiasm. Until you find a class, Michelle Joyce's Cheeky Girl DVDs are great for learning and practicing lots of different techniques. You can also develop a huge repertoire of steps with Cory Zamora's newest DVD, which teaches over 70 steps you can combine in a multitude of combos. (And of course there are others)

You might be one of those dancers who is not really wishy-washy, but who is just not stimulated by performing someone else's steps to someone else's choice of music in a group setting, but who only fully enjoys this dance when it is an expression of your personal connection with the music.

-Devora

Much of this is about balance.. how we accomodate those who want to take it seriously and a large majority who often dont.

We have to remember that the people who enjoy the social side of the dance also gain much from it, it is not always physical or tangiable to the observer.

Every teacher/area has to accommodate *who* and what they have to work with. Everyone is a significant member of the community and provides significant and essential input.. classes, audiences and festivals depend on people who make these choices.

I have different views when it comes to public performance, I believe this does require a little more skill and commitment.

One option for accommodating a student who can't make the commitment to attend rehearsals, master choreography, and polish technique up to the level of everyone else is this:

Give her a non-performing role that will enable her to dress up in the costume, join the rest of the group on road trips, and be a part of the "group". Ideas:

• Watch purses while others perform.
• Serve as the group's official photographer, if she's good with a camera.
• Serve as the group's official videographer, if she's good with a camera.
• Pass the tip basket while the group is performing the final piece.
• Pass out flyers or business cards to audience members while the group is performing the final piece.
• Carry props on/off stage to make transitions between pieces go more smoothly. With some careful theatrical thinking by the troupe director, this can be structured in a way that looks like part of the show.
• Be a member of a "chorus" of background dancers, sort of like the ATS choruses. The chorus role could be very simple - something like "6 hip drops on the right, then a step-change on counts 7 & 8, then 6 hip drops on the left, etc." Such a chorus could be on for the entire show, or could come on/off for specific songs as a way of varying the overall energy level of the performance. (The more people you have on stage, the higher the energy level.) The "chorus" could consist of experienced dancers who just don't know this particular choreography yet or don't care to perform it, or it could consist of up-and-coming students who aspire to perform with the group in the future but aren't ready to do the troupe choreographies yet.
• Assist the group with bringing audience members onto the stage for audience participation segments.
• If she knows ONE of the dances well enough to perform it with acceptable technique, let her perform that one even if she's not performing the others.
• In weekly classes, she can do her best to keep up with the choreos. When you reach the point of rehearsing for a specific show, she can fill in for people who may be absent that day to be a placeholder in the formations. This will help her continue building her knowledge of the dances so that if a future day comes when she can be more committed, she'll have a head start.
• When the group is nearly ready to do a show, she can assist you with critiquing the run-throughs. She may see things that you don't. Also, you can have other people take turns sitting out to critique the overall look, and when they do you can have the less committed student be a placeholder in their spot. And yes, you and whoever is sitting out can critique her along with the rest.

Addressing the "just for fun" classes....

I think it's good for teachers to offer their students 2 different tracks - the "aspiring to perform" track and the "just for fun & socializing" track.

My "just for fun & socializing" track is my "belly dance for exercise" class. Instead of being just a "beginner" class, though, I design it to be suitable for ALL levels. I use exclusively Middle Eastern music and Middle Eastern movement vocabulary, and I include stuff in it that I don't teach in my performance-track classes. For example, we'll do various Middle Eastern line dances (debke, Greek syrtos, Turkish karsilama, Greek & Turkish hasapiserviko which is the same as Israeli hora, etc.) Or, around the 3rd or 4th week of class I might introduce balancing while we do isolations - the beginners are permitted to opt out of balancing, while the more experienced dancers do it. My shimmy drills include a lot of different shimmy variations that challenge even my most experienced students. More experienced students can play finger cymbals in the baladi section with increasingly complex rhythms, whereas beginners might not play them, or might stick to simpler versions of the rhythms.

I don't do all of the above stuff every week, I vary the music and which dance styles I use. In a 6-7 week session, I'll do simpler combinations at the beginning of the session, more complex ones as the session progresses. I change music around week 4. When we drill isolations, I can make them more challenging for my experienced students by having them add breath work, energy work, arm variations, abdominal muscle work, or shimmy layers.

I've had performance-track students come to this class because they want to learn stuff that doesn't happen to appear in the choreographies they've been learning. They also find it useful for drilling. The line dances help them learn how to enjoy dance as a social activity rather than always working toward a performance goal - in other words, this class takes them back to the roots of true folkloric dance.

My formula seems to work - in any given 6-7 week session, about half the class consists of returning students, some of whom have been with me for a couple of years.

Originally Posted by alibelly

Im dealing with Goofus here! ..l;, *sigh*

I have an even mix of Goofus's and Gallents. I tend to cater to the Gallents.

Originally Posted by DonnaAnne

I have an even mix of Goofus's and Gallents. I tend to cater to the Gallents.

They're both paying for your class, you need to cater to both. It probably needs to be a different kind of catering for each, but you can't just ignore half of your students, or treat anyone who's missed a class as a waste of your time.

Woah! This thread took off while I wasnt looking!

Some feedback - the student in question returned to class this year and lasted 4 classes. She says she's lost her mojo for bellydance, is stressed about having to be on time and she cant afford any new costumes and will be jelous of the other girls costumes. True story!

This whole thing has shown me that I just cant please everyone.

Ive changed my class set up this year - so I have a fun class, open level drills and choreography open to whoever would like to join in.