Thread: Dealing with Divas - Teacher Awareness

We started this topic on Veighouda's "One of Those Students" thread, and hopefully it hasn't already moved to the teacher group where most of us can't see it. If it has - feel free to repeat your opinions here.

Here is what I commented and asked:

I haven't had many classes where one or two students (no matter the nationality or cultural background) haven't appeared to be "trying a little too hard" to be stars. They're everywhere and they're annoying no matter what.

We can either be put off so much that we don't go back to the class, or accept that they've got their issues and that shouldn't keep us from a good teacher or experience.

It takes patience and understanding to deal with the "there's no one in the world but me" diva students who take over the room, and honestly, I know I'm not always interested in dealing with it.

Do teachers see this going on in their classes or are they rather oblivious to the intra-student dynamics? I'd imagine it'd be more obvious in a troupe setting.

What say you teachers?

I've noticed several possibilities:

a) Instructors, who perhaps through their own insecurities, buy into the "teachers pets" students who know how to work it, and perhaps enjoy the acolyte/teacher thing, oblivious to the fact that they are feeding a clicquish class environment. Or....

b) Instructors who maybe ignore it, knowing that student drama is ridiculous and can suck the life out of you; or....

b) Teachers who are very detached from the class room dynamics, not paying attention to how students interact - or, at least they seem not to pay attention to it. I'm not sure whether that comes from being oblivious to what doesn't concern them, not wanting to invest any more time in student drama, or, simply not being observant of anything not specifically relating to what they are teaching. or, finally,

c) I'm reading way too much into student dynamics and need to just quit paying attention to individual behaviors.....g.:

Speaking as a teacher, it's hard to spot when it's actually going on in class. I tend to teach into the mirror, so I can see what's going on behind me, but it can still be hard to pick up on individual student interactions. Obviously you get times when there are little clusters of people clearly messing around, and you can give them the eye or separate them, but even as a student I often miss interclass politics. Too busy looking at myself.

Struck this in the class I'm going. Everyone else in the class is a beginner so I stand at the very back, mind my own business and 'get on with it'. However there are a couple of girls who, judging by their skill level, have probably done 6 months or so and they stand in the front row showing off in every class "Look at us, we're so good". The two girls take up more than their share of space in the room and by their large actions intimidate the new girls. The teacher is too busy 'teaching' to either separate the pair or move them further back.

I remember doing a couple of classes with a teacher in Auckland who, I swear, didn't look at us students once! She spent the whole time watching herself in the mirror. She'd demonstrate a move to us, then watch herself in the mirror as she did the movement or even sometimes a totally different movement over and over again, then suddenly she'd see us in the mirror and seem surprised "Oh, are you people still here?" sort of thing.

Further to my rant last month about inappropriate moves to teach beginners: last night, believe it or not, she taught the class a body wave with head snap, layered over a shimmy. Yeh right, that's a real beginners move

I wonder if those "we're so good" students are just superkeen and not conscious of the fact they're taking up space in front, though? I notice students sometimes really crowding me in class - ironically the more experienced ones all hang at the back of the studio and I have to haul them forward - and I recall doing the *exact same thing* to my teacher. Completely unintentionally, I was just so trying to see what to do and how to do it.

I say this because as a student in a particular class years ago, I remember hearing that there was some drama when a bunch of newer students came into the class. I didn't even notice, but apparently some of the longer-standing students got cheesed off with these newbies, who happened to be young and slender. They *thought* the girls were snobs and thought they were hot. But really they were just new students in a class who already knew each other, did have talent, were concentrating hard on the new work and were more comfortable with each other at first rather than mixing closely with the rest because they were shy of the other students.

i do often see the dynamics going on, the good vibes and the negs. i also often dont know what to do about it. behaviour which is bothering the class and how i teach, want to run my ship, i can adress (talking, use of space, not respecting other people's space, making derogatory comments about others (present or not) etc etc), and i can try to create a certain "atmosphere", safe learning environment for all, with the right mix of critique and positive reinforcement.... sometimes i feel very manipulative (using certain excesices to break up cliques, etc),
but there's limits to my "power" haha.
and, you will always have just awfull individuals... if it gets out of hand, i can kick people out as a last resort. but that's about it.

I've encountered a teacher who not only appear to recognize the behavior, but actually play along with it. This has been in my intermediate classes or student troupe sessions. Music plays, we do our dance. Next song comes on and diva starts dancing along despite teacher trying to discuss what's next. Instead of asking her to stop, teacher watches and applauds. Needless to say I didn't stay with this teacher very long. We wasted at times half of class time on the two of them talking about costumes, music, dance, etc. it's just inappropriate!

Speaking as a teacher,
I absolutely do not take any nonsense in my class. I do not play favorites, and diva's immediately get no extra attention from me.
I have had awful trouble makers in my class, and they lasted one or two classes and went off to find other teachers - thankfully.
I also had a very bad experience with a troublemaker when I first started teaching, so it taught me some very valuable lessons.
Just don't have the patience for it.
I also turn around from the mirror quite often to watch, It really does make a difference. It's amazing how much you see when you aren't looking in the mirror, (sounds crazy - but true)

I am edited to add: I don't have a problem recognizing the one's that are not devious with their intentions - it is the people, (in class and in life) that are passive-aggressive and aren't clear with their meanness, divaness, etc. that I have the most trouble with.
*sigh*
But once I spot them, they are gone......

Originally Posted by spanishdoll

I've encountered a teacher who not only appear to recognize the behavior, but actually play along with it. This has been in my intermediate classes or student troupe sessions. Music plays, we do our dance. Next song comes on and diva starts dancing along despite teacher trying to discuss what's next. Instead of asking her to stop, teacher watches and applauds. Needless to say I didn't stay with this teacher very long. We wasted at times half of class time on the two of them talking about costumes, music, dance, etc. it's just inappropriate!

::eek:

unbelievable.......

It's a special relationship the teacher - student thing, particularly if you've been studying with someone for a long time. I applaud those who do handle it well - I'm sure none of you signed up to be a mom to a bunch of adults.

I've just started a couple of brand new classes - actually one is a return to a class - and I'm trying to tune out anything other than learning. In the Flamenco class, we're all at the same starting out point and that seems to help - there seemed to be no pushy or irritating students.

Originally Posted by spanishdoll

Instead of asking her to stop, teacher watches and applauds.

Yes, diva-enablers can be as bad or worse than divas themselves.

Hmmm.... well maybe I don't see it?

I keep the ladies extremely busy while they are in my class. They generally don't have time to do more than ask a quick clerifying question before we are on to the next section.

The more advanced ladies tend to stick to the front of the room because the less experienced refuse to move out of the back row. I find this is true with all of my classes.

If a student speeds up or starts doing her own thing, I make a general statement like "I know it's hard to do, but lets keep this move slow until our muscles get stronger... slow it down... slow it down.... now check yourself out in the mirror... beautiful!" and repeat statement as needed. Or I will say "Oh hun, we are not doing that move right now. We will do that one later, right now we need to perfect this move"

The place I will find as you describe is at workshops. It seems the diva's are always vying for the attentions of the instructor with the "look at me! look at me!" mentality. Probably one reason I don't go to many workshops.

I will also keep this in mind when for when I do my upcoming workshops in June and August.

I have danced for seven years now. I did teach for one semester, only to find out that I did not like teaching.

Another thread - Why some do not teach.

So I went back to being a professional student, historian, and researcher.

So my experience is not of an instructor, but as a "professional student", LOL, love that name.

O.K. since my job has me traveling, I have hit some advanced classes. in many areas.

Oh that Diva that soaks up all the energy in the room, tries to focus the entire class on her, and tries to play the role of the most important person in the class. What narcisistic behavior.

In one class I took, I had to distance my self as far apart from this dancer as possilbe. She was so distracting, that I could not focus on the class, rather than focusing on this students overwhelming, attention seeking behavior.

That is exactely what I see when watching her perform.

I have the opposite problem in my beginnner classes - no one wants to stand in the front!! My beginner classes are filled with wonderful women, who have all just started bellydancing, and think they aren't good enough yet to move to the front row. I practically have to pull them up there! They have fun in class, but would prefer to hide out in the back.

Isn't that weird - technically, the newer students should be in the front row behind the teacher so they can see what she's doing. I tend to feel that better students should be at the back.

Originally Posted by danielabellydance

I have the opposite problem in my beginnner classes - no one wants to stand in the front!! My beginner classes are filled with wonderful women, who have all just started bellydancing, and think they aren't good enough yet to move to the front row. I practically have to pull them up there! They have fun in class, but would prefer to hide out in the back.

I think so too - I want them close to me! But they are embarrased and feel like they need to be a better dancer to be up front. I think it's just a confidence thing - the longer they are dancing the more confident they are?

we get 2 types.
1...".i am of the blood, i learned at home"
to that we say sweetly, .."oh, you need to be formalized!" meaning the need for terms, zills, veil, format, etc
2...."i am my families little princess/queen, DONT YOU SEE MY CROWN?"
to this one i suggest privates , so they can "move faster, due to their "talent"..and to get them alone, so i can handle it with our embarrassment. the last one of these, thought i knew nothing, broke off on her own...got fired from 3 resturants, in 2 weeks (this is back when we had dancing at resturants, before the city officials were all from a certain church)

I tend to feel that better students should be at the back.

THat really depends on the nature of the class. Sometimes, especially when a class is very big, you want the more skilled ones at the front so the ones at the back can still see something that resembles the work the teacher's doing - chinese whispers, sort of thing. I know that happens a lot in workshops and you'll typically get dancers with self-awareness lining themselves up behind a dancer they know is more skilled than they are.

And of course you rotate.

I had a teacher who liked having the more experienced dancers in the front row, so that they can serve as a demo as the teacher goes around correcting. This was actually part of my job when I was a TA, I had to correctly demo the movements so that the beginners had a reference point.

When I've had a troupe member come to my class, I stick to moves that I KNOW she knows so that I can have her demo, works beautifully. It allowed me to go to the back of the room where the shy-er dancers were hiding out and correct them.

I stand in the front myself because I'm near sighted and too stubborn to wear my glasses. I do the same if I take a fitness class. In workshops, I'll rotate.

It's true - and I thought of that after writing what I did. Of course I was thinking in terms of the smallish class. In big classes I do like to be behind people who know what the hell they're doing if I can't see the teacher and no one will rotate - of course, the trick then is finding the person who actually does know what they're doing rather than one who *thinks* they know what they're doing! :)

Originally Posted by zumarrad

THat really depends on the nature of the class. Sometimes, especially when a class is very big, you want the more skilled ones at the front so the ones at the back can still see something that resembles the work the teacher's doing - chinese whispers, sort of thing. I know that happens a lot in workshops and you'll typically get dancers with self-awareness lining themselves up behind a dancer they know is more skilled than they are.

And of course you rotate.

I tend to be oblivious to whatever dynamics may be going on between the students. It's mostly because I'm so focused on stuff like watching their technique to see what I have to correct, keeping organized to stick to my plan for what I'm teaching that evening, etc.

Also, to some extent, I figure that by the time people get to be adults, they should be able to manage their own interpersonal issues without needing me to step in. However, I balance this with the knowledge that most women dislike confrontation and would rather drop out of my class than deal with the annoying person, so if something is blatant enough to penetrate my awareness, I do try to manage it.

Originally Posted by danidance

I've noticed several possibilities:
b) Teachers who are very detached from the class room dynamics, not paying attention to how students interact - or, at least they seem not to pay attention to it. I'm not sure whether that comes from being oblivious to what doesn't concern them, not wanting to invest any more time in student drama, or, simply not being observant of anything not specifically relating to what they are teaching.

I think the fact we're dealing with adults who don't have to be there is one of the hardest things, actually. You can't make a 25 year old come up the front under your beady eye for slouching and not paying attention, you know? You have to be nice to them and make them want to be in class, and getting that balance is tricky.

But what about when the teacher is the diva?!

How do you deal with that!

This has been a much bigger problem for me than fellow students . . .

Z

I have a responsibility as a teacher to provide a safe learning environment. If someone is acting in a way that is damaging to the other students, to my ability to teach or to my business then they get a word and possibly a foot out the door.

But if it is just student politics then the best thing to do is to ignore childish behavior and do my job and create an environment that doesn't support those kinds of attitudes. Why? because those students that also think it is childish behavior and are there to learn appreciate that you don't validate the behavior by acknowledging it.

Years down the track you will realise that you have ended up the type of students that match your teaching values and ethics and the b*tches have all moved on somewhere else.

I have had very few divas so far, most of my ladies are very attentive and deferential although my improvers, being scousers are all getting a bit cocky but it's a positive thing 'cos they realise they know more re. what they are doing.Confidence has struck!
I had a teenage beginner-diva who told me after one class that she felt she needed to be in the advanced class ( I have no such thing). I told her I decided when she entered the "improver" class. Funny thing! I must have fixed her with the schoolma'am stare that I can't use with 40 year old matrons (who've all been there and done that!)
She never came back! Yeeeeesssss!!!

It's funny isn't it how people see their own insecurities and project it on to other people. For example, nervous folk, just starting in class might see those at the front as 'showing off' as they are maybe not yet confident to be seen by others dancing, and perhaps worry that they themselves shouldn't be "showing off" because "nice girls don't do that". I had one boyfriend tell me that only "an exhibitionist" would want to perform a dance to an audience, and was horrible about this wonderful art (he is history now).

As for Diva teachers, I guess it depends if you are the only show in town or not, whether you will keep your students...

Caroline,

Some is projection, I'd be an ass not to admit that. I don't like show-offy attention hogs, so yeah, I am overly aware & sensitive to that. Of course, I'm 47 and not particularly tolerant of many things! (crotchety old woman that I am).

But, I'm not talking about your general two friends in a class, or the person who is struggling and needs a bit of extra help, or such - it's a definitely "I must be the center of attention" thing which some students have and maybe they aren't aware of fact if that's how they are in every aspect of life.

And, I have to say it's more of a curiosity than anything for me -- in the worst case of this that I've experienced, it hasn't prevented me from taking the class b/c the teacher was one who had something great to offer.

Originally Posted by zamora

we get 2 types.
1...".i am of the blood, i learned at home"
to that we say sweetly, .."oh, you need to be formalized!" meaning the need for terms, zills, veil, format, etc
2...."i am my families little princess/queen, DONT YOU SEE MY CROWN?"
to this one i suggest privates , so they can "move faster, due to their "talent"..and to get them alone, so i can handle it with our embarrassment. the last one of these, thought i knew nothing, broke off on her own...got fired from 3 resturants, in 2 weeks (this is back when we had dancing at resturants, before the city officials were all from a certain church)

Great way to handle those issues Cory! I love the "oh, you need to be formalized!"
I must use that line -

Great way to handle those issues Cory! I love the "oh, you need to be formalized!"
I must use that line -
__________________
*maria* boulderbellygrams
thank you maria....cz

From the student perspective, I figure, I pay the same amount as anyone else in class and if people are too wimpy to go up to the front, that's their problem. I want to see what the teacher is doing. I'm not there to make the new people or the less confident people feel better. I am there to learn and get better. It's the teacher's job to decide where she wants us. Azar, my most recent teacher often asks her more advanced students to come up to the front so the class can see what the moves look like while she moves around giving feedback. Believe me, she has given me feedback even THEN. I'm not the teacher's pet, but after 4 years of belly dance and 2 years with her, I do have some familiarity with the moves she teaches.

If someone sees that as being an attention whore or monopolizing the space, then they need to move up to the front. I have never pushed anyone out of the way to get to the front line, but if a space is there, or I'm there first, you bet I'm taking that spot!

I think a lot of this is projection, for sure. I have a problem with passive aggressive wimps--because I used to be one. I worked hard to get over that so I'm not patient with that kind of nonsense. Life is too short to wait for other people to usher you through life.